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Water based primer for OPP
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:59:50 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
Having spent two summers as a deck hand on an old classic 80' Herreshoff
yawl I can definitely state that bronze DOES need cleaning. That boat had
10 bronze Dorade vents, 52 bronze hinges and latches and a bronze bow
fitting. And I had to polish every D#*%^! one of them once a week!

Blame the fastners & what they were fastened to?
Why not use a clear *insulating* plastic coating?
--
Cliff
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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Got nothing to do with the fasteners. They were bronze anyway. Dorade
vents are a big old chunk of bronze that sticks up a couple of feet above a
teak baffle box. If sea salt stays on it for any length of time it will
turn green.

Even the best clear plastic coating degrades in the constant UV. Seawater
gets under it and is then a real PITA to strip.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ecpct1536d9blpuheeicgnkr8qfvrbal0b@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:59:50 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net
wrote:

Having spent two summers as a deck hand on an old classic 80' Herreshoff
yawl I can definitely state that bronze DOES need cleaning. That boat had
10 bronze Dorade vents, 52 bronze hinges and latches and a bronze bow
fitting. And I had to polish every D#*%^! one of them once a week!

Blame the fastners & what they were fastened to?
Why not use a clear *insulating* plastic coating?
--
Cliff
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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Ironsides - the great Naval battleship of the US - wood hull - Oak - with a bottom
of copper put there by Paul Revere himself. The copper made the ship very fast.
Barnacles... didn't attach as they did to the wood ships of the time.

Coral seems to attach without problem - calcium carbonate layer as protection.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:09:35 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:


Quality Naval Bronze doesn't need cleaning. As I stated, it sat under salt water -
the ocean - rusting the iron bolts out - but the bronze is beautiful.

The special alloy props - monsters - a pair that exposed at low tide - were shinny.
I heard not long ago that one was dismounted for transport back to Germany.

So it really depends on the quality of bronze. Some require help - others don't.


Copper is an anti-fouling agent.
Quite toxic to much marine life.
Which is why it's often used (or was?) in marine paints .... (NOT for use on
Aluminum).

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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

There are bronzes and good ones. Some tarnish light' but then the big bull
is the official Naval Bronze. It is a very special alloy and is expensive.

I have several porthole assemblies (multi-layer) and one that is without the 1/2" thick glass.
I'm trying to find a spot for one or more here on the site and the blank one -
saving it for a special pour source of metal.

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



beav wrote:
Quote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:09:35 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:


Quality Naval Bronze doesn't need cleaning. As I stated, it sat under salt water -
the ocean - rusting the iron bolts out - but the bronze is beautiful.


sounds like the iron galvanically protected the bronze.

The special alloy props - monsters - a pair that exposed at low tide - were shinny.
I heard not long ago that one was dismounted for transport back to Germany.

So it really depends on the quality of bronze. Some require help - others don't.

Martin


i was thinking more about brass and bronze that on the deck that would
see salt spray and gets spots of tarnish that need to be cared for...

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



beav wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:53:46 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:



Brass de zincs - dezincify - Bronze is Tin-Copper.

I have some Bronze portholes - big ones - that were under Salt water for almost 50 years.
One the equator at that. Only blemish is coral and dark brownish color. Beauty.

Old design faucet sets were brass and the seats went bad - due to the loss of zinc
with the chlorine in the water.

Martin



that's why brass and bronze have ben used on ships since time
immemorial. oh. yeah. and that's why swabbies have been polishing
and buffing it for just as long.
its durable, but it needs to be cleaned all the time....




Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


Guy Fawkes wrote:


disclaimer - spent years as a marine engineer catering to the private
yacht sector.

chrome plate - waste of time and money

galvanised - lovely stuff, but ooh, it's not shiny, yuck.

stainless (various grades) - ooh, it's shiny, personally speaking you
couldn't give me the stuff on a boat, nightmare when used with any
other metal, which it always is in practice, and breaks with little
warning, yet is still used for rigging cos it's shiny..

bronze (various grades) - shiny and most suitable, will de zinc over
time if not protected by sacrificial anodes if installed badly

aluminium - has it's uses, god help you when someone chrome plates it,
or worse still uses a stainless fastener in it, which happens all the
time


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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Glenn - they weren't high grade Naval Bronze - just bronze. The price is
the main difference - I was trying to find some matching bolts - or make them.
I think I'll stick to standard bronze or make my own from the spare materials.
A source of it is in Houston Tx. Specialist in custom metals.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Quote:
Got nothing to do with the fasteners. They were bronze anyway. Dorade
vents are a big old chunk of bronze that sticks up a couple of feet above a
teak baffle box. If sea salt stays on it for any length of time it will
turn green.

Even the best clear plastic coating degrades in the constant UV. Seawater
gets under it and is then a real PITA to strip.


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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

This boat, the Pananchera, was built for a Vanderbuilt in 1922 out of the
finest materal available at the time. Naval brass above the waterline and
nickel aluminum bronze on wetted surfaces.

Actually the proper name is naval BRASS (C485) because it is 59-62% copper,
1.2 -2.2% lead 1% tin and the balance ZINC. C464 has .2% lead and no tin.
In a true bronze the primary alloy metal is tin. While the small tin and
lead content in C485 do reduce corrosion they do not prevent it. The
advantage of naval brass is strength. The disadvantage is the high zinc
content. Emersed in seawater without a nearby sacreficial zinc naval brass
reduces to copper sponge as the zinc leaches out. For this reason most
underwater bronze parts, and especailly large propellers are made from
nickel aluminium bronze, manganese aluminium bronze and high tensile brass
("manganese bronze").

Brightly polished naval brass turns green very quickly if it is not
maintained. If you don't believe that naval brass turns green, disassemble a
high quality pump body sometime.


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Martin H. Eastburn" <lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1138150882_15105@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Quote:
Glenn - they weren't high grade Naval Bronze - just bronze. The price is
the main difference - I was trying to find some matching bolts - or make
them.
I think I'll stick to standard bronze or make my own from the spare
materials.
A source of it is in Houston Tx. Specialist in custom metals.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Got nothing to do with the fasteners. They were bronze anyway. Dorade
vents are a big old chunk of bronze that sticks up a couple of feet above
a teak baffle box. If sea salt stays on it for any length of time it
will turn green.

Even the best clear plastic coating degrades in the constant UV.
Seawater gets under it and is then a real PITA to strip.


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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

I see those listed as both bronze and brass and from metal companies.

I doubt that was used on this ship: Xprinz Eugen that was captured, used,
put at Bikini with our men and many other ships and then towed to Kwaj and sunk.

My guess is the Germans (Krup Arms IIRC) had a different alloy.

You keep saying it tarnishes and leaches - but his didn't. So the alloy
is different.

Looking this up on a supplier in Houston - there are a dozen alloys they
call in Naval Bronzes.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Quote:
This boat, the Pananchera, was built for a Vanderbuilt in 1922 out of the
finest materal available at the time. Naval brass above the waterline and
nickel aluminum bronze on wetted surfaces.

Actually the proper name is naval BRASS (C485) because it is 59-62% copper,
1.2 -2.2% lead 1% tin and the balance ZINC. C464 has .2% lead and no tin.
In a true bronze the primary alloy metal is tin. While the small tin and
lead content in C485 do reduce corrosion they do not prevent it. The
advantage of naval brass is strength. The disadvantage is the high zinc
content. Emersed in seawater without a nearby sacreficial zinc naval brass
reduces to copper sponge as the zinc leaches out. For this reason most
underwater bronze parts, and especailly large propellers are made from
nickel aluminium bronze, manganese aluminium bronze and high tensile brass
("manganese bronze").

Brightly polished naval brass turns green very quickly if it is not
maintained. If you don't believe that naval brass turns green, disassemble a
high quality pump body sometime.



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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

There are three types of naval brass. C465 is lead free. C483 "medium lead"
is nominally .7% lead. C48500 "high lead" is nominal 1.9% lead. The lead
controls the machinability. They are often incorrectly referred to as a
bronze but as all are more than 35% zinc chemically they are actually brass.

It got the name "naval" because it was used extensively by the British navy
for deck fittings due to its strength and color. It does oxidize to a green
color but the British navy had an infinite supply of swabbies to polish it.
In the early battleship era an attempt was made to used it in condensers
and heat exchangers but because of major dezincification failures it was
replaced with manganese bronze in the Dreadnought class. Unfortunately for
the Turkish navy the British didn't issue a recall notice on the two battle
ships built for them and both were disabled in WWI due to condenser
failures.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Martin H. Eastburn" <lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1138160391_15267@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Quote:
I see those listed as both bronze and brass and from metal companies.

I doubt that was used on this ship: Xprinz Eugen that was captured, used,
put at Bikini with our men and many other ships and then towed to Kwaj and
sunk.

My guess is the Germans (Krup Arms IIRC) had a different alloy.

You keep saying it tarnishes and leaches - but his didn't. So the alloy
is different.

Looking this up on a supplier in Houston - there are a dozen alloys they
call in Naval Bronzes.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
This boat, the Pananchera, was built for a Vanderbuilt in 1922 out of the
finest materal available at the time. Naval brass above the waterline
and nickel aluminum bronze on wetted surfaces.

Actually the proper name is naval BRASS (C485) because it is 59-62%
copper, 1.2 -2.2% lead 1% tin and the balance ZINC. C464 has .2% lead
and no tin. In a true bronze the primary alloy metal is tin. While the
small tin and lead content in C485 do reduce corrosion they do not
prevent it. The advantage of naval brass is strength. The disadvantage
is the high zinc content. Emersed in seawater without a nearby
sacreficial zinc naval brass reduces to copper sponge as the zinc leaches
out. For this reason most underwater bronze parts, and especailly large
propellers are made from nickel aluminium bronze, manganese aluminium
bronze and high tensile brass ("manganese bronze").

Brightly polished naval brass turns green very quickly if it is not
maintained. If you don't believe that naval brass turns green,
disassemble a high quality pump body sometime.



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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:53:39 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
The advantage of naval brass is strength.

People think that the Iron Age provided great advantages over the
Bronze age.
Yet many Bronzes are stronger & harder than most Steels IIRC.
Now, about the next Pyramid ...
"Who signed us up for this club?"
http://www.legendarytoys.com/media/DV-40032-8.jpg

(Stolen from a Gary Larson "Far Side" cartoon I could not find online IIRC).
--
Cliff
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:50:35 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
Got nothing to do with the fasteners. They were bronze anyway.

Even a slightly different alloy ....

Quote:
Dorade
vents are a big old chunk of bronze that sticks up a couple of feet above a
teak baffle box. If sea salt stays on it for any length of time it will
turn green.

Even the best clear plastic coating degrades in the constant UV.

Many are well stabalized or unaffected.
Consider such things as a clear automotive topcoat.

Quote:
Seawater
gets under it and is then a real PITA to strip.

Has to get under first I expect ... and THEN cause electrolytic
corrosion. And a thin layer should have a largish resistance to
ion/charge flow the other way ...
--
Cliff
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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

We are not talking about galvanic corrosion here. Just plain old oxidation.
A minor difference in alloy between the screws and the part might cause a
little corrosion in the area of the screw but not 18" away.

A marine clear coat that will last longer than two years is the holy grail
of the marine finish industry.
Glisten PC and VHT-Clear are the two top performers. While they are popular
with the classic car restorers neither will last in the marine environment
more than two seasons and require mechanical abrasion to remove. Then you
have to buff the part with cut and color compounds to get a surface that can
be polished.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:076et1pcbr3jlatmtbcu5l6nc691v411p8@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:50:35 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net
wrote:

Got nothing to do with the fasteners. They were bronze anyway.

Even a slightly different alloy ....

Dorade
vents are a big old chunk of bronze that sticks up a couple of feet above
a
teak baffle box. If sea salt stays on it for any length of time it will
turn green.

Even the best clear plastic coating degrades in the constant UV.

Many are well stabalized or unaffected.
Consider such things as a clear automotive topcoat.

Seawater
gets under it and is then a real PITA to strip.

Has to get under first I expect ... and THEN cause electrolytic
corrosion. And a thin layer should have a largish resistance to
ion/charge flow the other way ...
--
Cliff
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Kevin G. Rhoads
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Quote:
we'd use straight up HNO3 (i can't recall the baume..) with a pinch of
HCl, and let the part soak for 20 minutes.

For repassivating stainlesses, nitric is often the old-time choice. But AFAIK anything
with chloride ion is deleterious to the passivating layer. THat's one of the reasons
that sea-water and food juices (often containing salt) are problematic. Cl- attack
can be reduced by adding Ni to the stainless mix, so the 18-8 for cooking (18% Cr, 8% Ni)
or 18-10 for the higher end stuff.

Just saute your stainless in a nice gently bubbling bath of nitric, and keep the stuff
OFF your skin.
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:00:38 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
A marine clear coat that will last longer than two years is the holy grail
of the marine finish industry.

Marine paint (not anti-fouling), probably plural component, minus
the pigments & fillers?
--
Cliff
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:00:38 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
We are not talking about galvanic corrosion here. Just plain old oxidation.
A minor difference in alloy between the screws and the part might cause a
little corrosion in the area of the screw but not 18" away.

I'd probably no be too certain of that, right off.
--
Cliff
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:00:38 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
A marine clear coat that will last longer than two years is the holy grail
of the marine finish industry.

Hmm .. did you say "cheap" & "easy" too?
--
Cliff
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