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Water based primer for OPP
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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Actually the amount of zinc is known within limits.

Normally you refer to the amount of primary alloying metal as "balance"
because the other components may vary within limits. In the example of
Phosphorized admiralty brass the total of the copper other components can
vary from 70.95% to 74.5% so the zinc will vary from 29.05% to 25.5%. There
is a minimum of 25 times more zinc in it than tin so it is properly a brass.

The confusion between brass and bronze is something you have to watch out
for when buying copper alloys for a corrosive environment. It is surprising
how many metal salesmen don't know the difference.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Martin H. Eastburn" <lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1138415994_1857@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Quote:
I checked the three portholes I have - three sizes naturally - Three
different decks.
Fancy one is from - you know gold braid types - One I think I might be
able to
get through!

They did have some tarnish - green - not much and not a coverage thing.

So I know it is a copper based metal at least.
Looking in my "Metals Handbook - page 513 - propose C44500 Admiralty,
Phosphorized .02-.1 P.
called a "Tin Brass" - more tin. 70-73 cu, .07 pb .06 Fe .8-1.2 Sn .02-.1
P balance Zn.

The only reason it is called a brass and not a bronze - is the unknown
amount of zinc.

Or it is in the something else - I think the names are simply a game.
Copper-silicon alloys (Silicon Bronzes) contain tin and zinc!

SO likely it is by application or by common use is used in the
classification of the copper and copper alloys.

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I still don't know why copper, tin, lead or copper, tin, zinc is brass.
Those are leaded bronze to me.



A few basics about brass and bronze.

When the primary components are copper and zinc it is a brass regardless
of any trace modifiers like tin and lead. The type of brass is normally
determined by the amount of zinc.

When the primary components are copper and some other metal it is a
bronze. Again regardless of the modifiers. The type of bronze is
determined by the metal primarily alloyed with the copper and include
silicon, manganese, aluminum and others. Some bronzes are named for the
trace modifiers like phosphorus . Many bronzes may contain tin and zinc
but the primary metal is tin.

There are several brasses that are commonly called bronze because they
contain small amounts of tin. Naval bronze being one of them. Similarly
there are bronzes that are referred to as brass. Red brass or gunmetal
is actually 88% copper, 10% tin, 2% zinc and is therefore a bronze.

To complicate the naval brass issue there is "Navy" bronze which actually
is bronze. Naval M bronze (C922) is 6% tin and 4.5% zinc.


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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

I checked the three portholes I have - three sizes naturally - Three different decks.
Fancy one is from - you know gold braid types - One I think I might be able to
get through!

They did have some tarnish - green - not much and not a coverage thing.

So I know it is a copper based metal at least.
Looking in my "Metals Handbook - page 513 - propose C44500 Admiralty, Phosphorized .02-.1 P.
called a "Tin Brass" - more tin. 70-73 cu, .07 pb .06 Fe .8-1.2 Sn .02-.1 P balance Zn.

The only reason it is called a brass and not a bronze - is the unknown amount of zinc.

Or it is in the something else - I think the names are simply a game.
Copper-silicon alloys (Silicon Bronzes) contain tin and zinc!

SO likely it is by application or by common use is used in the
classification of the copper and copper alloys.

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Quote:
I still don't know why copper, tin, lead or copper, tin, zinc is brass.
Those are leaded bronze to me.



A few basics about brass and bronze.

When the primary components are copper and zinc it is a brass regardless of
any trace modifiers like tin and lead. The type of brass is normally
determined by the amount of zinc.

When the primary components are copper and some other metal it is a bronze.
Again regardless of the modifiers. The type of bronze is determined by the
metal primarily alloyed with the copper and include silicon, manganese,
aluminum and others. Some bronzes are named for the trace modifiers like
phosphorus . Many bronzes may contain tin and zinc but the primary metal is
tin.

There are several brasses that are commonly called bronze because they
contain small amounts of tin. Naval bronze being one of them. Similarly
there are bronzes that are referred to as brass. Red brass or gunmetal is
actually 88% copper, 10% tin, 2% zinc and is therefore a bronze.

To complicate the naval brass issue there is "Navy" bronze which actually is
bronze. Naval M bronze (C922) is 6% tin and 4.5% zinc.


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lysdexia
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 1207

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

later -> latter
stabalizing -> stablising
abrasion resistant -> abrasion-resistant
no -> not
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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Cliff - that was for his heavy lead project. That was a project.
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:15:06 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:


Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


IIRC A bit back you were saving up for as specific alloy per your Site.
As I recall it that alloy needed Antimony. Why not alloy your own
to cast from the cheaper things you can readily get?

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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Thanks - that is a good definition.

I'm not concerned with all of these suppliers and foundries with false information.

I was in the shop long enough to check mail and grab a level.
I'll take another look later.
I guess if I melt down the not prime one - the zinc will likely evaporate
and change the alloy. Well time will tell.


Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Quote:
I still don't know why copper, tin, lead or copper, tin, zinc is brass.
Those are leaded bronze to me.



A few basics about brass and bronze.

When the primary components are copper and zinc it is a brass regardless of
any trace modifiers like tin and lead. The type of brass is normally
determined by the amount of zinc.

When the primary components are copper and some other metal it is a bronze.
Again regardless of the modifiers. The type of bronze is determined by the
metal primarily alloyed with the copper and include silicon, manganese,
aluminum and others. Some bronzes are named for the trace modifiers like
phosphorus . Many bronzes may contain tin and zinc but the primary metal is
tin.

There are several brasses that are commonly called bronze because they
contain small amounts of tin. Naval bronze being one of them. Similarly
there are bronzes that are referred to as brass. Red brass or gunmetal is
actually 88% copper, 10% tin, 2% zinc and is therefore a bronze.

To complicate the naval brass issue there is "Navy" bronze which actually is
bronze. Naval M bronze (C922) is 6% tin and 4.5% zinc.


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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Sounds like Cliff was a chemist ?

Yep - I know - now I have to generate a bunch of versions. Should run it up
to my University - visit and ask for ID. Or run it over to the other University
where I was in masters area - but liked their Physics R&D area - or send it to SLAC
were I was a visitor for a number of times.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:34:08 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:


Without taking this to a mass spec machine we will likely not know.


Borax beads & flame tests?
Might at least tell you which elements are alloyed.
Compare beads & flames with same from a known alloy
& guess the % of each?

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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Quote:
I still don't know why copper, tin, lead or copper, tin, zinc is brass.
Those are leaded bronze to me.


A few basics about brass and bronze.

When the primary components are copper and zinc it is a brass regardless of
any trace modifiers like tin and lead. The type of brass is normally
determined by the amount of zinc.

When the primary components are copper and some other metal it is a bronze.
Again regardless of the modifiers. The type of bronze is determined by the
metal primarily alloyed with the copper and include silicon, manganese,
aluminum and others. Some bronzes are named for the trace modifiers like
phosphorus . Many bronzes may contain tin and zinc but the primary metal is
tin.

There are several brasses that are commonly called bronze because they
contain small amounts of tin. Naval bronze being one of them. Similarly
there are bronzes that are referred to as brass. Red brass or gunmetal is
actually 88% copper, 10% tin, 2% zinc and is therefore a bronze.

To complicate the naval brass issue there is "Navy" bronze which actually is
bronze. Naval M bronze (C922) is 6% tin and 4.5% zinc.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:15:06 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

IIRC A bit back you were saving up for as specific alloy per your Site.
As I recall it that alloy needed Antimony. Why not alloy your own
to cast from the cheaper things you can readily get?
--
Cliff
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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:34:08 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
<lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:

Quote:
Without taking this to a mass spec machine we will likely not know.

Borax beads & flame tests?
Might at least tell you which elements are alloyed.
Compare beads & flames with same from a known alloy
& guess the % of each?
--
Cliff
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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

That is a beauty. The color looks a lot like my Si-Bronze I poured at Stanford U.
in the ME shops. That was fun! I'll look at the portholes in the A.M. - out in
the shop - the glass is maybe 12 or more inches wide. Main frame bracket with the
swing window. There was one cover that was on another, but was destroyed by movers
during one move with Dads stuff. Such is life.

Each pair must be 50# or so in weight.

I never remembered seeing any green - maybe there is somewhere.

I still don't know why copper, tin, lead or copper, tin, zinc is brass.
Those are leaded bronze to me.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Quote:
If it is dark brown it is either just on the surface and the green corrosion
has been cleaned off or not naval brass. (Because the primary alloy metals
are copper and zinc, technically there is no such thing as "Naval bronze".
The confusion comes because of the small amount of tin.) It is possible to
clean off the green without removing the brown patina. Here is what fresh
naval brass looks like.
http://users.eastlink.ca/~jbentley/GoldenEngine.html

As it weathers without any maintenance it turns a medium dark brown usually
with powdery green corrosion streaks. If you go to the construction page of
that site and scroll down you can see what a weathered piece looks like.

The problem is on classic yachts you don't want it to turn brown or green so
you polish it regularly. Older work boats don't care about the brown but
they usually don't want the green. Green fittings are an indication of a
poorly maintained boat


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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

BTW, that site is a really nice account of machining a Stuart No.1 out of
brass. Makes the one I made from regular Stuart castings look like a hack
job.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
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Glenn Ashmore
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

If it is dark brown it is either just on the surface and the green corrosion
has been cleaned off or not naval brass. (Because the primary alloy metals
are copper and zinc, technically there is no such thing as "Naval bronze".
The confusion comes because of the small amount of tin.) It is possible to
clean off the green without removing the brown patina. Here is what fresh
naval brass looks like.
http://users.eastlink.ca/~jbentley/GoldenEngine.html

As it weathers without any maintenance it turns a medium dark brown usually
with powdery green corrosion streaks. If you go to the construction page of
that site and scroll down you can see what a weathered piece looks like.

The problem is on classic yachts you don't want it to turn brown or green so
you polish it regularly. Older work boats don't care about the brown but
they usually don't want the green. Green fittings are an indication of a
poorly maintained boat

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jADBf.13617$Dh.1696@dukeread04...
Quote:
There are three types of naval brass. C465 is lead free. C483 "medium
lead" is nominally .7% lead. C48500 "high lead" is nominal 1.9% lead.
The lead controls the machinability. They are often incorrectly referred
to as a bronze but as all are more than 35% zinc chemically they are
actually brass.

It got the name "naval" because it was used extensively by the British
navy for deck fittings due to its strength and color. It does oxidize to a
green color but the British navy had an infinite supply of swabbies to
polish it. In the early battleship era an attempt was made to used it in
condensers and heat exchangers but because of major dezincification
failures it was replaced with manganese bronze in the Dreadnought class.
Unfortunately for the Turkish navy the British didn't issue a recall
notice on the two battle ships built for them and both were disabled in
WWI due to condenser failures.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Martin H. Eastburn" <lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1138160391_15267@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
I see those listed as both bronze and brass and from metal companies.

I doubt that was used on this ship: Xprinz Eugen that was captured, used,
put at Bikini with our men and many other ships and then towed to Kwaj
and sunk.

My guess is the Germans (Krup Arms IIRC) had a different alloy.

You keep saying it tarnishes and leaches - but his didn't. So the alloy
is different.

Looking this up on a supplier in Houston - there are a dozen alloys they
call in Naval Bronzes.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
This boat, the Pananchera, was built for a Vanderbuilt in 1922 out of
the finest materal available at the time. Naval brass above the
waterline and nickel aluminum bronze on wetted surfaces.

Actually the proper name is naval BRASS (C485) because it is 59-62%
copper, 1.2 -2.2% lead 1% tin and the balance ZINC. C464 has .2% lead
and no tin. In a true bronze the primary alloy metal is tin. While the
small tin and lead content in C485 do reduce corrosion they do not
prevent it. The advantage of naval brass is strength. The disadvantage
is the high zinc content. Emersed in seawater without a nearby
sacreficial zinc naval brass reduces to copper sponge as the zinc
leaches out. For this reason most underwater bronze parts, and
especailly large propellers are made from nickel aluminium bronze,
manganese aluminium bronze and high tensile brass ("manganese bronze").

Brightly polished naval brass turns green very quickly if it is not
maintained. If you don't believe that naval brass turns green,
disassemble a high quality pump body sometime.



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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Found on the side of a Chariot.


Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:53:39 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:


The advantage of naval brass is strength.


People think that the Iron Age provided great advantages over the
Bronze age.
Yet many Bronzes are stronger & harder than most Steels IIRC.
Now, about the next Pyramid ...
"Who signed us up for this club?"
http://www.legendarytoys.com/media/DV-40032-8.jpg

(Stolen from a Gary Larson "Far Side" cartoon I could not find online IIRC).

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Martin H. Eastburn
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

Ok - why is my Bronze dark brown in the protective coat. All the brasses I know
are brassy - or yellowish or reddish in color. I don't recall a spec of green.
Remember this was held at the equator /date zone ocean for 50 years. It should
be darkish green or pale green. But not green. The running lights I have are.
They don't have the same metal content - look brass like.

Since this was WW II - and a super Dreadnought - remember sister ship to the
Bismark that broke out of the blockade. The Prinz was ordered not to follow
the Bismark once it was damaged by the bomb attack by a Bi-Plane on the rudder.
(The state of the art fighter-bombers didn't have enough impact.) The Bismark
was of movie and very high drama time in life. National honors were on the line.
The Prinz was ordered to the Pacific to join up with the Japanese. I don't think
it made it - not sure when it was taken. Maybe not in war footing. Might have
been in port - South America was getting new population at the time ?

Without taking this to a mass spec machine we will likely not know.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Quote:
There are three types of naval brass. C465 is lead free. C483 "medium lead"
is nominally .7% lead. C48500 "high lead" is nominal 1.9% lead. The lead
controls the machinability. They are often incorrectly referred to as a
bronze but as all are more than 35% zinc chemically they are actually brass.

It got the name "naval" because it was used extensively by the British navy
for deck fittings due to its strength and color. It does oxidize to a green
color but the British navy had an infinite supply of swabbies to polish it.
In the early battleship era an attempt was made to used it in condensers
and heat exchangers but because of major dezincification failures it was
replaced with manganese bronze in the Dreadnought class. Unfortunately for
the Turkish navy the British didn't issue a recall notice on the two battle
ships built for them and both were disabled in WWI due to condenser
failures.


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Cliff
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: O.T.- Chrome plating on salt water boat items?? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:49:21 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
The Glisten PC is an epoxy and I think the VHT is a two part
urethane.

The later is more likely to have UV & IR problems IIRC. Blocking
& stabalizing agents can degrade/leach out/ etc. with time too in
somecases ... but perhaps a fresh coat before the 10 years is
up?
OTH The later should probably be more abrasion resistant ...
--
Cliff
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