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refine peach sap
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Borek
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:58:01 +0200, <rekuci@gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
solvent...the tree sap is likely to be mostly polymerized gunk. It may

And I wonder if it doesn't polymerize further when exposed to air
(something like some unsaturated fatty acids). This will make sense,
as once polymerized it will form more effective plaster on the wounded
tree.

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=BATE&right=basic_acid_titration_equilibria
http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=CASC&right=concentration_and_solution_calculator
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Wow, great info, thanks David.
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rainer lörwald
science forum beginner


Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Sorry,

but it is not fossilized, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber
for more information.
Rainer


rekuci@gmail.com schrieb:
Quote:

Just a warning that it might not easily dissolve in any common
solvent...the tree sap is likely to be mostly polymerized gunk. It may
soften but it'll stay phase-separated in most liquids. Tree gums and
natural latex are extracted from this stuff. What oozes out depends on
the species. I can't imagine anything you extract out of it would be
very tasty. All plants in the apple family (incl. peach) contain
cyanogen glycosides in all parts but the ripe fruit flesh. Even in the
edible gum producing species, Bubble Yum was invented for a reason.

Amber is indeed only fossilized, so it is a mineral (and a rare one to
mineralize rather than decompose), not a chunk of worthless organic goo
off a tree. Have you actually tried tumbling it yet? I tend to doubt
it'll turn out shiny like rocks do.
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David Stranz
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

"servozoom" <servozoom@peoplepc.com> wrote in
news:1129254811.498912.289440@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
Ok, results from the lab are in. Turpentine did nothing at
all, at least not at room temp. Water however, at room temp
did soften a mass. I brought the water to a boil and the
clump broke up into "gelatin like" clear to dark yellow
spherical globs. Leaves, dirt and wood were easy to decant off
the top and bottom. Now I tried to melt the globs together,
but no luck, then with heat... no, with room temp alcohol and
turpentine... nope. Worked on another batch of globs and
could only "cut" them into smaller particles, but never able to
recombine them. I even put them in a blender, but no luck, the
substance I ended up with was very similar looking to gelatin
powder.
I'm stuck for now, going to look into polymerization, and
some kind
of technique that would work for this unknown substance.
Thanks to everyone in the group, If anyone can figure this out,
I'm sure there will be a Nobel Prize waiting. Smile Nick



I found this article, which might be of use. See the section
entitled "Making Composition Ornament", whic gives some clues on how
this sap might be dissolved.

http://www.phlf.org/news/faq/NPSPolicyBriefs/briefs/brief34.html

I also did a Google search on using "pitch resin remover" (without
the quotes), and turned up some other hits. This is an interesting
discussion:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/X0453E/X0453e10.htm

Keep experimenting!
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Ok, results from the lab are in. Turpentine did nothing at all, at
least not at room temp. Water however, at room temp did soften a
mass. I brought the water to a boil and the clump broke up into
"gelatin like" clear to dark yellow spherical globs. Leaves, dirt and
wood were easy to decant off the top and bottom. Now I tried to
melt the globs together, but no luck, then with heat... no, with room
temp alcohol and turpentine... nope. Worked on another batch of
globs and could only "cut" them into smaller particles, but never able
to recombine them. I even put them in a blender, but no luck, the
substance I ended up with was very similar looking to gelatin powder.
I'm stuck for now, going to look into polymerization, and some kind
of technique that would work for this unknown substance. Thanks to
everyone in the group, If anyone can figure this out, I'm sure there
will be a Nobel Prize waiting. Smile Nick
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Thanks for your info, I think you've got it, Polymerization . I'm
far from a chemist, but I am somewhat familiar with the process.
That's why when I boil the chunks consisting of many inividual drops
mixed with the dirt, grass and bark, I end up with all individual clear
drops in the water. They do not combine, not even when removed from
the water and heated together. There has to be something with the
way the molocules are linked together in a chain. I now have
another direction to look into, I wouldn't waste my time like this if I
wasn't retired and I find it interesting. I also have over 100 trees
that I can dig around. I got about 10 lbs of it from 5 trees. I
suppose that in a few thousand years the sap in that soil may turn to
real amber. Smile Thanks again, I'm going to try the turpentine
thing now. Any more info would be great, thanks again. Nick
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Thanks so much for the great information, I sure did hit the right
group. I was wondering about that, today while in home depot. I
know turpentine has a strong smell, and I don't think that it will
totally evaporate. I expect it will have an oily residue. Thanks
again for everything. Nick
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rekuci@gmail.com
science forum addict


Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Just a warning that it might not easily dissolve in any common
solvent...the tree sap is likely to be mostly polymerized gunk. It may
soften but it'll stay phase-separated in most liquids. Tree gums and
natural latex are extracted from this stuff. What oozes out depends on
the species. I can't imagine anything you extract out of it would be
very tasty. All plants in the apple family (incl. peach) contain
cyanogen glycosides in all parts but the ripe fruit flesh. Even in the
edible gum producing species, Bubble Yum was invented for a reason.

Amber is indeed only fossilized, so it is a mineral (and a rare one to
mineralize rather than decompose), not a chunk of worthless organic goo
off a tree. Have you actually tried tumbling it yet? I tend to doubt
it'll turn out shiny like rocks do.
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David Stranz
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

"servozoom" <servozoom@peoplepc.com> wrote in
news:1129221706.782270.170260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
About 10% of it are beautiful globs, they are hard as a rock and
am interested in "tumbling" the "rocks" for use in jewelry.
I'm not trying to decieve people into thinking that it's amber,
but is it?

I think strictly speaking, amber is the fossilized form.
See http://www.answers.com/topic/amber

Quote:
All I know is that there is value to the stuff.

Fossilized amber, maybe, but crystallized sap straight from the
tree?

Quote:

I have no intention on consuming it, I've collected some right
off of tree branches, and it's a soft gummy substance, although
I've thought about tasting it, I am not willing to risk my life,
I am under the impression that some fruit tree pits contain
arsenic.

It's cyanide, actually, but same issue. Presumably evolution
resulted in high concentrations of cyanide in pits and seeds as a
defense against consumption by animals. Likewise, sap is a defense
against invasion of tree wounds and achieves its effectiveness by
immobilizing invaders in a sticky mess. I doubt if it contains
significant levels of cyanide, but it probably doesn't taste great.
Pine sap is steam-distilled to extract terpenes (from which
turpentine is derived).

Quote:

I'll try some turpentine, I won't be doing it with heat, I
didn't do it with the denatured alcohol, I know better than
that, Thanks.



You might also try acetone, hexane, or some other commonly
available solvent (try Home Depot's paint department). These would
probably be easier to remove than turpentine, especially the smell.
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

Nope it dosen't melt on it's own, it bubbles and then drys up as a
chrumbly carbonized mess. At a lower heat in boiling water, the
chunks do get soft, but they never combine into larger clumps. I've
removed the soft globs from the water and tried several melting them
together, but nothing happens until the temperature gets to the point
ot bubbling it.

Vegetable oil may work, but I won't be able to separate the sap from
the oil. I do want to eventually let it form back into hard chunks,
Thanks again for your advice. Any other ideas, please let me know.
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

About 10% of it are beautiful globs, they are hard as a rock and am
interested in "tumbling" the "rocks" for use in jewelry. I'm not
trying to decieve people into thinking that it's amber, but is it?
All I know is that there is value to the stuff.

I have no intention on consuming it, I've collected some right off of
tree branches, and it's a soft gummy substance, although I've thought
about tasting it, I am not willing to risk my life, I am under the
impression that some fruit tree pits contain arsenic.

I'll try some turpentine, I won't be doing it with heat, I didn't do
it with the denatured alcohol, I know better than that, Thanks.
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Mr. Dawg
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

David Stranz <david_stranz@remove_this_to_reply_MassSpec.com>
wrote in news:Xns96EE51ACD434davidstranz@216.196.97.131:

Quote:
"servozoom" <servozoom@peoplepc.com> wrote in
news:1129214865.885055.165670@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the
base of old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others
are contaminated with other organic material.

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it
will not disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even
less results.

What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer
substance.

Thanks,

Nick



Depends what you want to do with it afterwards. It is probably
soluble in turpentine or other organic solvents of that sort,
but if you are intending to consume the refined product, don't
use them.

Don't blow yourself up.

What are you trying to do with this stuff, anyway?


Hmmm, on further reflection, try using vegetable oil as a solvent.
You can heat that reasonably safely, too. If the sap itself isn't
toxic, then the purified result isn't likely to be, either.

The stuff doesn't just melt on its own?
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David Stranz
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: refine peach sap Reply with quote

"servozoom" <servozoom@peoplepc.com> wrote in
news:1129214865.885055.165670@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the
base of old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others are
contaminated with other organic material.

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it
will not disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even
less results.

What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer
substance.

Thanks,

Nick



Depends what you want to do with it afterwards. It is probably
soluble in turpentine or other organic solvents of that sort, but if
you are intending to consume the refined product, don't use them.

Don't blow yourself up.

What are you trying to do with this stuff, anyway?
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servozoom
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:47 pm    Post subject: refine peach sap Reply with quote

I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the base of
old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others are contaminated
with other organic material.

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.

What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer substance.

Thanks,

Nick
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