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Peter Lowrie
science forum beginner
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 17
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject:
What's wrong with this?
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H2O(aqu) + 208kcal --> H+H+O(gas) +208kcal --> H2O(aqu)
--
Regards,
Peter.
http://www.pelicom.net.nz |
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Peter Lowrie
science forum beginner
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject:
Re: What's wrong with this?
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Since nobody has replied I can only assume you all think there is nothing
wrong with it...
Peter Lowrie (that's me, folks) wrote:
| Quote: | H2O(aqu) + 208kcal --> H+H+O(gas) +208kcal --> H2O(aqu)
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But there is something very wrong with it rendering it physically mistaken.
It's IMBALANCED!. Where is the energy release? The above reaction gleaned
from several authorative textbooks (and simplified) for ease of use fails
to provide an energy output following the +208kcal --> H2O(aqu).
We all know that H+H+O when ignited is highly explosive, the explosion
energy far exceeding the energy following initialisation of the oxidisation
reaction is never accounted for in the learned texts.
I'd like to work in Joules rather than calories (because I'm more familiar
with the figures) 208kcal = 870kj per molecule in this reaction (not mole).
The standard information relating to energies of H and O give 1312kj and
1313kj respectively, the ioinisation energies are multiplied, not added
therefore H+H+O = H+H.O = 1312+1312 x 1313 for the oxidisation reaction
energy = 3,445Mj and
H2O(aqu) +870kj --> H+H+O(gas) +870kj --> H2O(aqu) can be updated to
H2O(aqu) +870kj --> H+H+O(gas) +870kj --> (H+H+O(ion)-3445Mj) --> H2O(aqu)
which balances the equation. That there is an apparent energy mismatch is
of no consequence given the reaction should begin with the elemental gases
in order to reflect the trueness of nature; before there was water there
was only gas, the gas is ignited and explodes, the energy of that explosion
is lost to space and the oxide settles down (losing more energy as it cools
from superheated steam) to a lower (lowest) energy state commonly known as
water:
H+H+O(gas) +870kj --> (H+H+O(ion)-3445Mj) --> H2O(aqu) is what occurs in
nature.
----
Regards
Peter Lowrie
http://www.egaspower.com |
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Dieter Britz
science forum beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:13 am Post subject:
Re: What's wrong with this?
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Peter Lowrie wrote:
| Quote: | Since nobody has replied I can only assume you all think there is nothing
wrong with it...
Peter Lowrie (that's me, folks) wrote:
H2O(aqu) + 208kcal --> H+H+O(gas) +208kcal --> H2O(aqu)
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You seem to expect a very fast reply. Of course there is something
wrong with it. What are these texts where you find this stuff? How
have you "simplified" what is printed there? I suspect that you have
simplified away so much that you were left with nonsense.
| Quote: | http://www.egaspower.com
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Nice picture, but where is the rest? You are not one of these Brown's
gas people, are you?
--
Dieter Britz, Kemisk Institut, Aarhus Universitet, Danmark. |
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Peter Lowrie
science forum beginner
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:51 am Post subject:
Re: What's wrong with this?
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Dieter Britz wrote:
| Quote: | You seem to expect a very fast reply.
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This can't be a well supported forum and so it takes everyone a few days to
get to it.
| Quote: | Of course there is something
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I knew it!. But what?
| Quote: | wrong with it. What are these texts where you find this stuff? How
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Organic Chemistry LCCCN66-25695
| Quote: | have you "simplified" what is printed there? I suspect that you have
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To suspect is not the same as to know though, is it?
| Quote: | simplified away so much that you were left with nonsense.
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The formula came for the book.
| Quote: | http://www.egaspower.com
Nice picture, but where is the rest? You are not one of these Brown's
gas people, are you?
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What's that?
--
Regards,
Peter.
http://www.pelicom.net.nz |
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Lasse Murtomäki
science forum beginner
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:17 am Post subject:
Re: What's wrong with this?
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| Quote: | H2O(aqu) + 208kcal --> H+H+O(gas) +208kcal --> H2O(aqu)
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Let us take the first step. The Gibbs free energy of formation of H(g) is
+203 kJ/mol and of O(g) +232 kJ/mol; for liquid water the value is -237
kJ/mol. So, Delta_G for the first step is 837 kJ/mol i.e. ca. 208 kcal/mol.
I guess that there is a typo in the book, it should read
| Quote: | H2O(aqu) + 208kcal --> H+H+O(gas) --> H2O(aqu) - 208kcal
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Reaction equations are not quite ordinary algebraic equations, although they
look similar.
Summa summarum: splitting water into its gaseous elements requires energy
208 kcal/mol, and making water from its gaseous elements yields energy 208
kcal/mol.
--
Dr. Lasse Murtomäki
Helsinki University of Technology
lasse.murtomaki@tkk.fi |
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