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can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

In article <1137189793.963884.129180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:

Quote:
Yes, of course.

Nah.

Quote:
Remember Faraday? 150 years ago he proved it,
experimentally.

You must confuse it with something else.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

I'm afraid not. Faraday "bent" light by using an electromagnet to the
"amazement" of hordes of spectators.It is so old that many learned
people have forgotten....
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clujdej@yahoo.com
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

To be precise: "bent" as in "changed the polarization"

http://www.rigb.org/rimain/heritage/faradaypage.jsp

Since light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave, of course that it
would interact with another electromagnetic field (as in the case of
his experiments, the field produced by an electromagnet).
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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

In article <1137311635.110913.37930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:
Quote:
To be precise: "bent" as in "changed the polarization"

http://www.rigb.org/rimain/heritage/faradaypage.jsp

Since light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave, of course that it
would interact with another electromagnetic field (as in the case of
his experiments, the field produced by an electromagnet).

Perhaps you meant to say "of course not"Smile


Maxwell's equations are linear. Do you understand the meaning?

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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clujdej@yahoo.com
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

"bent" as in changed.
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clujdej@yahoo.com
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

"Thomson asked Faraday if had ever investigated whether light was
affected when passing through an electrolyte. Faraday said he had tried
this experiment but had not found any effect, but would try again. When
he repeated this experiment he still found no effect. It then occurred
to him to see what would happen to light passing near to a powerful
magnet. This he did by placing a piece of heavy glass on the poles of a
powerful electro-magnet; then he passed polarised light through the
glass; when he turned the electro-magnet on he found that the state of
polarisation of the light changed.

This experiment told Faraday two things. First that light had been
affected by magnetic force - the magneto-optical effect, which later
became known as the Faraday Effect."
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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

In article <1137345973.411426.317710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:
Quote:
"Thomson asked Faraday if had ever investigated whether light was
affected when passing through an electrolyte. Faraday said he had tried
this experiment but had not found any effect, but would try again. When
he repeated this experiment he still found no effect. It then occurred
to him to see what would happen to light passing near to a powerful
magnet. This he did by placing a piece of heavy glass on the poles of a
powerful electro-magnet; then he passed polarised light through the
glass; when he turned the electro-magnet on he found that the state of
polarisation of the light changed.

This experiment told Faraday two things. First that light had been
affected by magnetic force - the magneto-optical effect, which later
became known as the Faraday Effect."

Aha. Now, try the same without the glass, just passing light between

the poles of a magnet. Observe and draw conclusions.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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Mike Mainville
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

Faraday effect
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
In physics, the Faraday effect or Faraday rotation is an interaction between
light and a magnetic field. The rotation of the plane of polarization is
proportional to the intensity of the component of the magnetic field in the
direction of the beam of light.

The Faraday effect, a type of magneto-optic effect, discovered by Michael
Faraday in 1845, was the first experimental evidence that light and
magnetism are related. The theoretical basis for that relation, now called
electromagnetic radiation, was developed by James Clerk Maxwell in the
1860's and 1870's. This effect occurs in most optically transparent
dielectric materials (including liquids) when they are subject to strong
magnetic fields.



The Faraday effect does not bend light, it rotates the direction of
polarization.


<clujdej@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137311116.454095.142230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
I'm afraid not. Faraday "bent" light by using an electromagnet to the
"amazement" of hordes of spectators.It is so old that many learned
people have forgotten....
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tadchem
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1348

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

gubernacullum wrote:
Quote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.

Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."

BTW, the answer is yes.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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lysdexia
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 1207

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

Y.Porat wrote:
Quote:
disturbed imbecil
disturbed -> disturbate

imbecil -> imbecile
You.
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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:
Quote:

gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.

Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."

BTW, the answer is yes.

Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at

least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.

That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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RP
science forum Guru


Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
Quote:
In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:

gubernacullum wrote:

can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.

Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."

BTW, the answer is yes.


Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.

That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

One might also interpret such a prediction of a minor unobserved effect
as being the result of an error in the model.
That has me wondering, has anyone ever attempted to adjust the model to
eliminate the chance of nothing interacting with nothing?

Richard Perry





Quote:

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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Creighton Hogg
science forum addict


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

Quote:
In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:

gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.

Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."

BTW, the answer is yes.

Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.

That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

There's ideas floating out there in the hep community about
a photon photon collider: the ultimate in a clean signal!

Just googling you can find a bit on the proposed Tesla
project, which I think has a fairly nebulous status at the
moment.
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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru


Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

In article <Pine.LNX.4.58.0601152227280.7311@login01.hep.wisc.edu>, Creighton Hogg <wchogg@login01.hep.wisc.edu> writes:
Quote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:

gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.

Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."

BTW, the answer is yes.

Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.

That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

There's ideas floating out there in the hep community about
a photon photon collider: the ultimate in a clean signal!

Clean, for sure, just not too much of it:-) But if funding is

guaranteed for the span of time it'll take to accumulate decent
statistics, there should be considerable interest:-)

Quote:
Just googling you can find a bit on the proposed Tesla
project, which I think has a fairly nebulous status at the
moment.

So it seems. And that's much simpler than photon-photon.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
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clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Reply with quote

Hmm, you seem to know a lot more than I do on this subject. You'll have
to excuse my naivete but if you start from the Maxwell equations in
free space :

\nabla \cdot \mathbf{E} = 0

\nabla \cdot \mathbf{H} = 0

\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = - \mu_0 \frac{\partial\mathbf{H}}
{\partial t}

\nabla \times \mathbf{H} = \ \ \varepsilon_0 \frac{\partial
\mathbf{E}} {\partial t}

These equations have a simple solution in terms of travelling
sinusoidal plane waves, with the electric and magnetic field directions
orthogonal to one another and the direction of travel, and with the two
fields in phase, travelling at the speed

c = \frac{1}{\sqrt{\mu_0 \varepsilon_0}}


and you apply the superposition effect, i.e. you superimpose the B' of
Faraday's coil it is kind of evident that you get a new set of
solutions for the partial differential equations, meaning that the
light waveform has changed polarization. I might be wrong....
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