Search   Memberlist   Usergroups
 Page 2 of 3 [41 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

In article <1137189793.963884.129180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:

 Quote: Yes, of course.

Nah.

 Quote: Remember Faraday? 150 years ago he proved it, experimentally.

You must confuse it with something else.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? I'm afraid not. Faraday "bent" light by using an electromagnet to the "amazement" of hordes of spectators.It is so old that many learned people have forgotten....
clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? To be precise: "bent" as in "changed the polarization" http://www.rigb.org/rimain/heritage/faradaypage.jsp Since light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave, of course that it would interact with another electromagnetic field (as in the case of his experiments, the field produced by an electromagnet).
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

In article <1137311635.110913.37930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:
 Quote: To be precise: "bent" as in "changed the polarization" http://www.rigb.org/rimain/heritage/faradaypage.jsp Since light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave, of course that it would interact with another electromagnetic field (as in the case of his experiments, the field produced by an electromagnet). Perhaps you meant to say "of course not"

Maxwell's equations are linear. Do you understand the meaning?

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? "bent" as in changed.
clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

In article <1137345973.411426.317710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:

the poles of a magnet. Observe and draw conclusions.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Mike Mainville
science forum beginner

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 2

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

In physics, the Faraday effect or Faraday rotation is an interaction between
light and a magnetic field. The rotation of the plane of polarization is
proportional to the intensity of the component of the magnetic field in the
direction of the beam of light.

The Faraday effect, a type of magneto-optic effect, discovered by Michael
Faraday in 1845, was the first experimental evidence that light and
magnetism are related. The theoretical basis for that relation, now called
electromagnetic radiation, was developed by James Clerk Maxwell in the
1860's and 1870's. This effect occurs in most optically transparent
dielectric materials (including liquids) when they are subject to strong
magnetic fields.

The Faraday effect does not bend light, it rotates the direction of
polarization.

<clujdej@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 Quote: I'm afraid not. Faraday "bent" light by using an electromagnet to the "amazement" of hordes of spectators.It is so old that many learned people have forgotten....
science forum Guru

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1348

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

gubernacullum wrote:
 Quote: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.

Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
lysdexia
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 1207

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

Y.Porat wrote:
 Quote: disturbed imbecil disturbed -> disturbate

imbecil -> imbecile
You.
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

 Quote: gubernacullum wrote: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try a little research. Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday rotation." BTW, the answer is yes. Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at

least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.

That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
RP
science forum Guru

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 348

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

 Quote: In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" writes: gubernacullum wrote: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try a little research. Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday rotation." BTW, the answer is yes. Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current). Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium, where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction between the light and the field is present. That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a higher order process where a photon generates a virtual particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

One might also interpret such a prediction of a minor unobserved effect
as being the result of an error in the model.
That has me wondering, has anyone ever attempted to adjust the model to
eliminate the chance of nothing interacting with nothing?

Richard Perry

 Quote: Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Creighton Hogg

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 93

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

 Quote: In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" writes: gubernacullum wrote: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try a little research. Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday rotation." BTW, the answer is yes. Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current). Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium, where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction between the light and the field is present. That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a higher order process where a photon generates a virtual particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is extremely small for any reasonable field densities.

There's ideas floating out there in the hep community about
a photon photon collider: the ultimate in a clean signal!

Just googling you can find a bit on the proposed Tesla
project, which I think has a fairly nebulous status at the
moment.
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?

 Quote: On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" writes: gubernacullum wrote: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try a little research. Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday rotation." BTW, the answer is yes. Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current). Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium, where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction between the light and the field is present. That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a higher order process where a photon generates a virtual particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is extremely small for any reasonable field densities. There's ideas floating out there in the hep community about a photon photon collider: the ultimate in a clean signal! Clean, for sure, just not too much of it:-) But if funding is

guaranteed for the span of time it'll take to accumulate decent
statistics, there should be considerable interest:-)

 Quote: Just googling you can find a bit on the proposed Tesla project, which I think has a fairly nebulous status at the moment.

So it seems. And that's much simpler than photon-photon.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
clujdej@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 236

 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? Hmm, you seem to know a lot more than I do on this subject. You'll have to excuse my naivete but if you start from the Maxwell equations in free space : \nabla \cdot \mathbf{E} = 0 \nabla \cdot \mathbf{H} = 0 \nabla \times \mathbf{E} = - \mu_0 \frac{\partial\mathbf{H}} {\partial t} \nabla \times \mathbf{H} = \ \ \varepsilon_0 \frac{\partial \mathbf{E}} {\partial t} These equations have a simple solution in terms of travelling sinusoidal plane waves, with the electric and magnetic field directions orthogonal to one another and the direction of travel, and with the two fields in phase, travelling at the speed c = \frac{1}{\sqrt{\mu_0 \varepsilon_0}} and you apply the superposition effect, i.e. you superimpose the B' of Faraday's coil it is kind of evident that you get a new set of solutions for the partial differential equations, meaning that the light waveform has changed polarization. I might be wrong....

 Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First
 Page 2 of 3 [41 Posts] Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3 Next View previous topic :: View next topic
 The time now is Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:45 am | All times are GMT
 Jump to: Select a forum-------------------Forum index|___Science and Technology    |___Math    |   |___Research    |   |___num-analysis    |   |___Symbolic    |   |___Combinatorics    |   |___Probability    |   |   |___Prediction    |   |       |   |___Undergraduate    |   |___Recreational    |       |___Physics    |   |___Research    |   |___New Theories    |   |___Acoustics    |   |___Electromagnetics    |   |___Strings    |   |___Particle    |   |___Fusion    |   |___Relativity    |       |___Chem    |   |___Analytical    |   |___Electrochem    |   |   |___Battery    |   |       |   |___Coatings    |       |___Engineering        |___Control        |___Mechanics        |___Chemical

 Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post Similar Topics Finite fields and Splitting fields vedmundson@hotmail.com Math 8 Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:35 pm Electromagnetic theory without Relativity h_v_ansari@yahoo.com Physics 0 Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:44 pm Electromagnetic theory without Relativity h_v_ansari@yahoo.com Electromagnetics 4 Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:28 pm The geometric representation of spin for elliptic polariz... Josef Matz Electromagnetics 0 Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:35 am What frequency of sound would be to the ear what 750 THz ... Radium Acoustics 3 Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:55 am