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Hero
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 220
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:30 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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Maestro wrote
| Quote: | ...a thin wire inserted into the cochlea stimulates the basilar membrane
at places along its length corresponding to these frequency bandwidths.
..
...So why aren't cochlear implants more successful? The answer must be
that the 'place theory' model of hearing is incomplete - but there is
of course no point in finding faults in the place theory (as many
laymen do) without being able to suggest a better theory.
it is assumed that the differences increase gradually from one end of the basilar
membrane to the other in some reasonably linear manner which can be discovered
by experiment.
Jan Panteltje wrote:
..So the theory that one hair cell only responds to one frequency
could well be an illusion, it COULD in a test setup because of the
form of the tube, but is highly unlikely and physically impossible
as those hair cells are all the same size.
...The tube is conical, and reflections may or may not occur at its end,
...People seem to think that the inner ear does a frequency to time transform,
a Fourier transform.
As the interface is to a neural net, this transform is not needed. In fact the net will
'filter out' the frequency component over time, as it only wants RATIO. That is why
those implants will never work that way.
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Maestro wrote:
| Quote: | ...on the other hand I think we both agree that the hydrodynamic aspects of 'waves' in
the cochlear fluid and basilar membrane are irrelevant.
And with both he means Jan and himself, |
but Jan answers:
| Quote: | Oh, they are not!
He gives a woderful story (see in the appendix) |
and concludes:
| Quote: | ...The clue is more likely the RATIO between 2 firings, carrying that hidden info 
As this is de.sci.mathematik here some more math to it: |
As Jan pointed out the RATIO is important. Just ordinary feeling of the
skin discovers
Druck, Berührung und Vibration, that is pressure (with intensity), the
speed of change of pressure or the first derivate and also the second
derivate as vibration.
This is not ,,hidden info", but it is highlighted by differentation
(the derivate contains less info, but highlights an important aspect).
Also the info of all nerve cells along the skin will be compared and
calculated
(Offset pressure - lower and higher pressure, speed of moving along,
form of wave).
Now my thought:
The form is important: it's conical - this results - looked at from
one point or hair - in quick increase in pressure and slower
decrease-- the more, the farther inside the cone.
But more important is this: it's coiled up, it's a spiral.
Imagine the front end of a wave coming in and having everywhere the
same speed. But in a ductus, spiraled up, the angular speed of the
pressure on the wall of the ductus, which is farther away from the
center is less than along the wall, which is closer to the center. And
after a while moreover, most of the front end of the wave travels along
the wall, which is closer to the center and thinning out (this
thinningout is countered to a certain amount by the conical form). So
one has a whole intervall of pressure moving along the ,,inner"
wall.
Are these thoughts reasonabel and can they be confirmed and made more
precise by experiment?
Enjoy
Hero
PS. I can't stop me, i like Jan's story very much, so i just add it
here:
| Quote: | Alien lands on earth with his little flying cup and saucer.
He stays a while, finds everything very interesting, and decides to take all
that knowledge with him back home, he wants to take the Encyclopedia
Britannica.
But his spaceship is too small and the weight too much.
So he writes down the whole Encyclopedia text in ASCII numbers as one long
number.
Then he does 1 / that number on his (Alien) calculator.
This gives him a ratio.
He takes a stick, and puts a mark exactly so it is from one end at that
ratio from the length, and takes the stick back home.
What I am saying is, that given infinite granularity (say time was not
granular, not 'quantised') by tapping on the table 3 times
tap tap tap
I can describe the whole universe in all detail by the time ratio of
the three taps.
3 (three) info points is all you need to encode any amount of info
*in time* that you want.
So the story of 'firing rate' is just that: firing rate (of a neuron).
faster - slower faster (called frequency modulation).
The clue is more likely the RATIO between 2 firings, carrying that hidden
info
Look a bit at this:
http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/4829.html
http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/real/real_video.html
Link may still work, was from 1999, was classified immediately (NAVY funded
and submarine use for detecting other subs).
Anyways in the original paper and diagram (that I must have somewhere)
he describes real measurements on real neurons, and how the firing rate
system is not the right one. |
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Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:10 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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On a sunny day (Tue, 07 Mar 2006 17:12:43 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <dukeuh$5s4$1@news.datemas.de>:
I want to add something about the 'ratio' coding.
Suppose the alien (I talked about in the other post) encoded the word 'cool'
using that method I described as a ratio between 2 points.
Or , if you are on the other end of the spectrum, use the word 'sucks' in this
example.
The alien this time uses a long paper tape, several meters, and puts 3 marks
on it.
section A section B
--------*-----------------------------*----------------------*---------- tape
O observer
The decoding requires getting A first and then dividing it by B.
The number is a word number in a list to look up a text for example.
Now this paper tapes moves towards the left, and you, the observer,
see the 3 marks pass by.
You time the difference between the marks (in clock ticks on your clock)
You find A ticks and B ticks, divide and have the answer.
Now the alien speeds up the paper tape.
You still get the same ratio, you decode 'cool' (or sucks).
Now the alien plays the tape slower.
Still the same result.
Now the alien plays the tape backwards, it moves towards the right.
You now get B first, divide it by A, and number not in list!
See how this relates to the audio tape forward at any speed with no
problem for you to 'decode' the words?
But if the tape is moved backwards, in reverse, can you still make out
what is said? No way, 'syllable' not in list (not learned).
So 'ratio' is the issue, not frequency, frequency is what we WANT TO GET
RID OF.
Now look at nature, that bird, that dives (Jonathan Livingstone Seagull)
and screeches to the bird below that comes in its way to change direction,
has a HUGE Doppler effect.
If communication was in any way *frequency* based, no meaning could be
conveyed.
So, what they are doing now is like connecting a temperature sensor to the
mike input of the amp and expecting sound.
How do you detect RATIO? You could do it by measuring one point, and watch
the pressure variations. What is A and what is B?
ABABABAB
BABABABA
ABCDEFDE
where to start?
You could do it by serial to parallel conversion and looking at a section of
the total, as the ear does.
Nothing frequency related.
Plenty of questions to be answered.
But consider RATIO.
End message from an alien. |
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Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:49 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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On a sunny day (8 Mar 2006 01:30:33 -0800) it happened "Hero"
<Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de> wrote in
<1141810232.944605.296420@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>:
OK, lets look at life for a moment.
First I will take you to the studio, and what we will do is take
an amplifier and connect a microphone and speaker to it.
Now we move the speaker next to the microphone, and turn the volume up.
Some terrible howling noises will happen.
Now take a second amplifier and mike and do the same.
The both will interact now too.
Turn it off, if somebody did not already use the power switch.
Now you will ask: What has this to do with life?
Well it is clue 1.
When I say life, I mean 'communicating life forms',..
So now lets go to the sea.
Nice, we dive underwater and find all little one celled creatures that
can divide so there is more and more of these, some will be eaten by
higher life forms, some will die of age, population will stabilise.
They do not communicate a lot with each other and us, maybe chemically
in some way, but not a lot.
There are some that divided, and stayed together and organised,
sort of could communicate because they were connected together, say
by electrical and chemical signals.
So electrical and chemical signals happened between these cells.
Some cells were sensitive to pressure, some to light, some to temperature,
all of them to all these influences a bit.
But then something changed, something important.
We had this:
***
******** multicellular
**
When enough cells formed chains, the ends connected together again:
* *
* * multicellular with feedback
* *
Now the exchange of signals from one cell to the other went full circle to the original one
as a firing rate RATIO change from all previous ones.
The system was, by all definitions, oscillating (see clue 1).
Now lets draw our oscillating system a bit different, to show how this happens:
( ) sun
----------------------------------water surface
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< direction of cell eating entity
light shadow
**********************
* 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 *
* *
* *
**********************
^
scope probe
As NORMALLY (when nothing happens), the chemical reactions
in those individual cells would take the same time, and
the creature was at 'rest', you would see [for example] this electrical signal:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | firing pulses (not to scale)
bottom right, top light bottom dark
dark
But when some 'animal' some 'object' comes between it and the sun, the pattern
changed like this:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | firing pulses (not to scale)
Although on average the frequency changes, the information is in the distance between 2 spikes
relative to the previous.
Now about synchronising oscillators.
Oscillators have this tendency to 'synchronise'.
That is because oscillators are in essence amplifiers (clue 1) with feedback.
They will pick up any signal and amplify that too, and it will affect and
trigger timing in their own circuit, so they [end up] display[ing] the SAME pattern.
For a SIMILAR creature at some distance from this, that is in any way sensitive to electrical
pulses, mechanical pressure (contraction expansion of cells in the first proportional to
these ratios as caused by the the first one reacted to), it will start displaying
that pattern in its OWN chain of cells.
It sees what the other 'sees'
Quite exactly actually.
The person told you:
Hey I can see what you just described, visualise it.
So life, and communication... here we are.
What leaves when a person dies?
The organs are not dead  These stay alive for a long time and can
be used for transplants, and then will live for even longer.
We, (the doctors) look at the brain patterns, and when those patterns are
no more detectable, they say: This person is dead.
The brain stops working and needed signals (control) to maintain the body will fail,
heart may stop, and the body will start to fall apart.
When we look at brain waves, there are so many theta, alpha....
**When the feedback path fails***** is when life (communicating life) stops.
When the microphone is moved away from the speakers in clue 1, or the
amplifier gain is set so low the feedback gain is < 1, the amp becomes quiet.
It is for this reason life stops at one point.
Many times people are treated with highly poisonous chemicals that also kill nerve cells.
Chances are the ones responsible for the feedback path are hit, and that person is no more.
Statistically....
So, here is your 'secret of life' if you please.
We are the oscillator.
We listen that way, we see that way, we interact that way, and when the loop is cut,
we die that way.
End message from alien.
How do I understand bird language?:
I see what the bird sees when I hear it.
Do not listen for the song.
Visualise the impression.
You will see what the bird sees.
The Yogi
(Well you know, I play there rolls, some of the ones I play). |
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Hero
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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Jan Panteltje schrieb:
Sorry, i tried hard, but i don't grasp, how Your ,,answer" relates
to my posting.
Hero wrote, that for simulating the cochlea one has to take into
account it's form:
conical and coiled up into a spiral. (And i must add, size is important
too). My question
for experiments is answered by Jan with a message, in which he shares
with us
'the secret of life' (one of the messages many people will print out,
because of it's value).
Is there anyone, who has knowledge, how to do these experiments with a
model-cochlea, in which one can measure pressure-waves or make them
visible, f.e.with dyes or with polarisation-filters or else?
Jan wrote:
| Quote: | So, here is your 'secret of life' if you please.
We are the oscillator.
We listen that way, we see that way, we interact that way, and when the loop is cut,
we die that way.
End message from alien.
It sparks my associtions. But okay, i restrict myself. |
Interaction between life forms, that's also: one form eats the other.
Although i think the compassionate ( a form of induction and
oscillation too) are more among the fittest (which survive with
Darwin), fitter than the most greedy and brutal ones.
Where do You find oscillations in the theory of hearing?
Let's compare to seeing with our eyes. The input is also waves,
inputted into five different types of cells. But the first and most
important step is not to analyse for frequency and
strength(energy-brightness), it is pattern-recognition. The first step
of this is modelled in a matrix-form by ai-people:
Step 1: input of light into cells (positions, knots in a matrix)
step 2: Every cell recieving light will forward an impulse to the cell
matching in
a second sheet/layer of cells - AND to it's direct neigbours
step3: these cells will forward the impulse to a third layer only with
the input above a certain level "a" of input impulses. (Changing "a"
leads to different contrast and silhouette pictures)
The actual model is more advanced with cells split into center and
peripherie and can be studied with the ai-people.
Now, if we have results from experiments, how sound (which is not only
waves but an ensembel of differently moving molecules) is moving
through the cochlea-ductus, we have a model for the input in the first
layer/sheet of cells, the ones directly connected to the hairs (do
these hairs have tiny muscles too, like the hairs on the skin, when one
shivers with cold?).
Hero
PS I can't suppress this one, Jan. Music ( by composers and birds..) we
enjoy, oscillates with the universe we experience in the way You
describe in Your 'secret of life'. Thanks anyhow. |
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Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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On a sunny day (10 Mar 2006 04:45:06 -0800) it happened "Hero"
<Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de> wrote in
<1141994706.442838.92700@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | PS I can't suppress this one, Jan. Music ( by composers and birds..) we
enjoy, oscillates with the universe we experience in the way You
describe in Your 'secret of life'. Thanks anyhow.
|
High,
OK, well, I understand your pre-occupation with the data-acquisition
mechanism.
I can assure you that I am VERY familiar with visual and audio data
acquisition mechanisms, as I design hardware and write software for that, and
have been in that field for almost 40 years.
What I was trying to make clear from the multi-cell creature just below the
sea surface, is that each cell is sensitive (each neural cell in the
simplified example) to ALL sorts of influences, and changes its firing
position (recharge time changes) in response to local influences.
Sure in evolution cells 'specialised' to respond more to say one colour then
an other, one sort of event more then an other.
But is essence the mechanism is the same.
I will not go QUITE as far as saying: take finger skin with pressure sensors,
fold and fill with water, add membrane connected to amp output (as in
speaker), and connect outgoing nerve to hearing nerve to brain, but it is
very close.
Would probably work better then what they do now.
It is essential to get the overall picture to decode.
Because it is the decoding that fails if you code wrong.
Nothing wrong with wanting to know in every detail how a microphone works,
There are many types, many better ones have been designed over the years,
from old carbon to modern electret, but all give a similar wave output when
exposed to a sinewave for example (apart from many % distortion in older
designs).
But that interface expects a signal proportional to sound pressure variations.
Now what do you think that nerve to the brain wants for signal?
This is what you first should know (or at least ALSO should know) before you
have a go at the sensor.
Never mind, some work on the sensors, some on the processing after that.
Much like NASA not using metric symbols and losing a spacecraft to mars
resulting in a wrong insertion burn.
Now we will try again with metrics right..
Anyways, we will see, check again after WW3, Dr Sarfatti predicts it will
start this month.
I think my previous posting was indeed a stroke of genius insight, and
posted it on my blog too.
You will find I am right, if you live that long, dear oscillator. |
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Hero
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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Jan Panteltje schrieb:
.....
| Quote: | I think my previous posting was indeed a stroke of genius insight, and
posted it on my blog too.
You will find I am right, if you live that long, dear oscillator.
The problem is, when a genius thinks, that he is a genius (like in the |
cartoon Charlie Brown dressed like a surgeon thinking aloud :"... and
here is the world-famous chirurg on his way to the OP and all th nurses
admire him"), that this includes his thought, that everybody else is
just a Watson (of Sherlock Holmes) or just a belittled oscillator (or a
nurse)
Now, Your oscillation-theory in Your previous post is great, indeed -
only it matches to the nose, to smell. Does it match to hearing - i
doubt this and You bring no prove of this.
Sound is not composed of sinus-waves with Fourier-coefficients. These
superpositions of sinus-waves is an important part, especially in
harmonic music, but regard just a solitron ( a wave with just one half
period), how can there be oscillation and Rück-Koppelung? And there
are so many other movements of air-masses and - more important :
movement of movements of air ( The scond one like the ,,wave" in a
sport-arena. Not the people move forward, just the up-and-down movement
is propagating). The pressure movements can have so many forms in 3D,
like Deep and Low in the weather-picture, this means rotations, there
can be eddies, or to get a 2D-picture of this 3D sound, sitting in the
bathh tube and playing around will teach a lot.
Still everything is a sum of sinus-waves?
My question is still open, to anybody:
Is there anyone, who has knowledge, how to do these experiments with a
model-cochlea, in which one can measure pressure-waves or make them
visible, f.e.with dyes or with polarisation-filters or else?
Now i go outside, the last days with snow
and so beautiful sun
hope for You all the same
Hero
PS Jan, You have long experience, so why your predecessors choose the
snail's shell-form for the first phonographs and how the sound came
out?
PSPS.
Luca Turin opposes the simple theory of smelling and odour, which can
be characterised
by lock-and-key. He has a theory and lots of experiments with his
molecules being differed in the nose by their vibrational properties.
He writes in the Neue Zuericher Zeitung (Folio), as he is also a good
parfumeur
http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr
He has a company, flexitral
http://www.flexitral.com/index.html
and under this link You'll find enough material, which for sure will
convince You.
Hope You'll like this guy Luca as much, as i do. |
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Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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On a sunny day (11 Mar 2006 05:35:01 -0800) it happened "Hero"
<Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de> wrote in
<1142084100.951760.188010@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | Jan Panteltje schrieb:
....
I think my previous posting was indeed a stroke of genius insight, and
posted it on my blog too.
You will find I am right, if you live that long, dear oscillator.
The problem is, when a genius thinks, that he is a genius (like in the
cartoon Charlie Brown dressed like a surgeon thinking aloud :"... and
here is the world-famous chirurg on his way to the OP and all th nurses
admire him"), that this includes his thought, that everybody else is
just a Watson (of Sherlock Holmes) or just a belittled oscillator (or a
nurse)
|
A realized soul like me knows when a genius idea manifests,.
If you had the slightest clue, even the most minute, had spend many hours
in deep meditation, understanding the self (so how your head works),
what can be understood (I DO speak bird language), and spend many years
in electronics education, then many years in electronics design, in
industry in many fields, in a nuclear physics research lab, learned many
languages, can write in many programming languages.. it is indeed a rare
thing, yes I am the synthesis of eastern and western knowledge, and some
more even more important that every person should know, but does not.
| Quote: | Now, Your oscillation-theory in Your previous post is great, indeed -
only it matches to the nose, to smell. Does it match to hearing - i
doubt this and You bring no prove of this.
|
It matches to any life, that is the beauty of it.
Proof you can see with the eyes closed by hearing (like those birds)?
For you (as creature) to be able to do this, your neural net has to become
still.
This is what happens in meditation, like a pool with no ripples.
Then and only then, when the storm of YOUR ideas does not disturb the
waves, will you perceive the slight pattern in the water caused by the normal
invisible and inaudible.
All creatures are build the same, all are universal, and all can communicate
that way.
The only time you will be convinced is not by anybody demonstrating it to you.
You will be convinced only when YOU experience it.
Then if you [also] have the knowledge of systems in the world that we created,
you can carry it there, but a Yogi will not normally tell you, it is for you
to see.
Secret knowledge, or at least alien to the western world, and rare in the
eastern world.
| Quote: | Sound is not composed of sinus-waves with Fourier-coefficients.
|
But it is, really it is.
Get some sound editor (maybe cool edit in MS windows), and do a Fourier
transform.
Take any wave file and do a Fourier transform.
Ever used an spectrum equaliser on a mp3 player?
| Quote: | These
superpositions of sinus-waves is an important part, especially in
harmonic music, but regard just a solitron ( a wave with just one half
period), how can there be oscillation and Rück-Koppelung?
|
Well, a person with only one period brain wave is [considered] dead after
that.
Such waves can be created though, about 30 years ago (seventies) I used
these sort of wave generators to test speakers.
If the half sine is a pure sine..... it is one frequency component, if it is
not a sine, but for example a sine square, or parabolic function, then it is
composed of more then one frequency.
| Quote: | And there
are so many other movements of air-masses and - more important :
movement of movements of air ( The scond one like the ,,wave" in a
sport-arena. Not the people move forward, just the up-and-down movement
is propagating). The pressure movements can have so many forms in 3D,
like Deep and Low in the weather-picture, this means rotations, there
can be eddies, or to get a 2D-picture of this 3D sound, sitting in the
bathh tube and playing around will teach a lot.
Still everything is a sum of sinus-waves?
|
Any point in space, if you measure pressure at x,y,z then yes, the pressure
is the sum of all the pressures arriving at that point at that time.
P @ x,y,z,t (t = time)
It is not: 'everything is the sum of sinewaves'.
It is: Every waveform can be thought of as the sum of sinewaves'.
This is very different, Fourier learns us that even a square wave can be
composed out of many many sine waves (quite a long long series actually ).
Of course everything is not the sum of sinewaves, but mathematically can be
'represented' by the sum of n sinewaves with amplitude U and phase Phi
Draw a sinewave on a piece of paper, now cut in two, and shift over each
other.
At any point in time the new wave (pressure in your case) is the sum of the 2.
Now shift these past each other.
At one point they will cancel each other, at some other point add up to 2 x.
Now draw an other sinewave with a different frequency, and combine that
by adding.
You will see the result is no longer sinewave.
So you have made an other wave form by adding 2 sinewawes of different
frequency.
| Quote: | My question is still open, to anybody:
Is there anyone, who has knowledge, how to do these experiments with a
model-cochlea, in which one can measure pressure-waves or make them
visible, f.e.with dyes or with polarisation-filters or else?
Now i go outside, the last days with snow
and so beautiful sun
hope for You all the same
Hero
PS Jan, You have long experience, so why your predecessors choose the
snail's shell-form for the first phonographs and how the sound came
out?
|
I dunno, they did not write anything down,. but it seems reasonable that if I
had a long tube with fluid as serial to parallel converter, and minimum space
available, I would roll it up, like a garden hose.....
Simplest explanation.
As to the 'conical' I think this is to prevent standing waves, but am
not sure.
| Quote: | PSPS.
Luca Turin opposes the simple theory of smelling and odour, which can
be characterised
by lock-and-key. He has a theory and lots of experiments with his
molecules being differed in the nose by their vibrational properties.
He writes in the Neue Zuericher Zeitung (Folio), as he is also a good
parfumeur
http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr
He has a company, flexitral
http://www.flexitral.com/index.html
and under this link You'll find enough material, which for sure will
convince You.
Hope You'll like this guy Luca as much, as i do.
|
Would be nice maybe you could smell one day via radio and TV.....
Headphones, smellphones (on the nose).
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Hero
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:27 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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Hero wrote:
| Quote: | Sound is not composed of sinus-waves with Fourier-coefficients.
Jan wrote:
But it is, really it is.
Get some sound editor (maybe cool edit in MS windows), and do a Fourier
transform.
Take any wave file and do a Fourier transform.
Ever used an spectrum equaliser on a mp3 player?
And
Of course everything is not the sum of sinewaves, but mathematically can be
'represented' by the sum of n sinewaves with amplitude U and phase Phi
An articial nose can be build which analyses the atoms of the |
odour-molecule and the 3D structure.
But that's not, how the nose works. It analyses the vibration pattern
of the molecule and the proof was given by Luca Turin, two molecules
with nearly the same vibration pattern, but different in it's chemical
structure, that is its composition of atoms, can smell the same.
Here are the links again:
http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr
http://www.flexitral.com/index.html
Now with hearing. You shouldn't hang around in the web discussing, when
You have the knowledge (secret or not) to fix the apparent noise
problems with artificial hearing by cochlea implants. As pointed out
here, also by You, there's only a limited amount of hairs sensitive to
pressure movements and these have quite a long recharge-time.This
doesn't give enough bits to analyse down to the ,,constituent"
sinus-waves. Even using math like the RATIO and differencing (first and
second derivate for location or/and for time), as this is done by the
cells in the eye, does not reveal enough of the Fourier coefficients.
This might be a major part in hearing, but the patients still
experience too much noise.
| Quote: | ...
Calculate for Yourself: how many sinus-waves one can add up by |
analysing with this hardware (cochlea), twenty? Is this enough for
differing between a birds song and the news on the radio, when they
both input into the ear at the same time? But we can switch our
attention between both.
The ear is going another way of analysing sound and this can only be
part of it.
Sound can be produced by vibes, air streaming along telegraph-wires or
vocal chords but there are other sounds, not produced by adding sinus
waves:
try to speak the klick-sound of the word ,,!Kung" like the San in
the Kalahari, hear the ,,gluk, glof" of water in the harbour, the
snip-snap of a scissors,. or the sound of a campfire
It's meditation against experiment
Friendly greetings to all readers and contributors
Hero
PS:
| Quote: | (I DO speak bird language)
There are birds who can speak our language. |
Now try on bees. They talk math, they tell each other the polar
coordinates of food with a dance.
There are people who can dance with the bees, You know how to do it
too?
| Quote: | Proof you can see with the eyes closed by hearing (like those birds)?
Can't You train blind people, so they don't need their stick anymore?
yes I am the synthesis of eastern and western knowledge, and some
more even more important that every person should know, but does not.
If we should know, better tell us (or provide a link to this knowledge). |
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Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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|
On a sunny day (12 Mar 2006 02:27:13 -0800) it happened "Hero"
<Hero.van.Jindelt@gmx.de> wrote in
<1142159233.444248.46430@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | An articial nose can be build which analyses the atoms of the
odour-molecule and the 3D structure.
But that's not, how the nose works. It analyses the vibration pattern
of the molecule and the proof was given by Luca Turin, two molecules
with nearly the same vibration pattern, but different in it's chemical
structure, that is its composition of atoms, can smell the same.
Here are the links again:
http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr
http://www.flexitral.com/index.html
Sure man.. |
| Quote: | Now with hearing. You shouldn't hang around in the web discussing, when
You have the knowledge (secret or not) to fix the apparent noise
So you do not want it fixed? |
| Quote: | problems with artificial hearing by cochlea implants. As pointed out
here, also by You, there's only a limited amount of hairs sensitive to
pressure movements
True. |
| Quote: | and these have quite a long recharge-time.
Says YOU |
| Quote: | This
doesn't give enough bits to analyse down to the ,,constituent"
sinus-waves.
Stop thinking in bits and stuff you know apparently little about, |
Look at my first replies.
| Quote: | Even using math like the RATIO
Pulse position, alien problem remember, see how much info you |
can transfer in 3 neuron firings (or 2 since the last)?
You took a wrong turn, look up that link I gave for reality.
| Quote: | and differencing (first and
second derivate for location or/and for time), as this is done by the
cells in the eye, does not reveal enough of the Fourier coefficients.
???? |
Dunno what you are on about here, in the eye it was found considerable
pre-processing is done, especially to detect EDGES of moving objects.
It is not just sensor cells, these are connected to each other, it is
in fact the first neuron layer (only these are more sensitive to some
frequencies of light and highly specialised).
| Quote: | This might be a major part in hearing, but the patients still
experience too much noise.
|
Patients cannot even follow a normal conversation, if you stick a
temperature sensor in the mike input you will also hear noise if
the temp changes... but no speech.
If your coding is wrong the brain cannot decode, and it will only
hear more or less noise, which it will try to cancel in the long run
as unwanted.
| Quote: | ...
Calculate for Yourself: how many sinus-waves one can add up by
analysing with this hardware (cochlea), twenty? Is this enough for
differing between a birds song and the news on the radio, when they
both input into the ear at the same time? But we can switch our
attention between both.
|
Sentence makes no sense to me, twenty WHAT?
Draw a model for yourself and use your brain.
| Quote: | The ear is going another way of analysing sound and this can only be
part of it.
Sound can be produced by vibes, air streaming along telegraph-wires or
vocal chords but there are other sounds, not produced by adding sinus
waves:
try to speak the klick-sound of the word ,,!Kung" like the San in
the Kalahari, hear the ,,gluk, glof" of water in the harbour, the
snip-snap of a scissors,. or the sound of a campfire
|
Actually I have some nice music by Meriam Maceba 'click song' etc.....
Good, now you get what I wrote: Sound is not 'produced by sinewaves'.
Fine.
I can make a nice sound, well electronically any sound, from a lookup
table in a memory, any form you like.
PRODUCTION of sound has NOTHING to do with Fourier analysis in its
components.
Fine, at least you understand that? (Not betting).
| Quote: | It's meditation against experiment
Nope nothing against nothing, it is you versus reality, |
and reality will not give in.
| Quote: | If we should know, better tell us (or provide a link to this knowledge).
www.maharaji.org. |
Want a teacher?
You already disagree with me, now have fun. |
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Hero
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 220
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:07 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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All i know about this, i put down here. I still ask for
experiments.
Just an add-on, i found some words about the snow-owl.
Jan Panteltje schrieb:
| Quote: | Proof you can see with the eyes closed by hearing (like those birds)?
"Savia und die Schnee-Eule" (Savia produces hearing-aids) |
"Weshalb wurde die Schnee-Eule als Motiv für Savia gewählt? Die
Schnee-Eule gilt weltweit als Symbol für Weisheit. Zusätzlich passt
sich die Schnee-Eule auf verschiedene Arten äusserst gut an ihre
Umgebung an, beispielsweise dank dem aussergewöhnlichen Hörvermögen
und der Fähigkeit, geräuschlos fliegen zu können. Diese Fähigkeiten
sind für das Überleben der Eule äusserst wichtig.
Savia imitiert mittels modernster Digitaltechnologie die besonderen
Fähigkeiten von biologischen Systemen, sich an die Umgebung anzupassen
- wir nennen dies Digital Bionics.
Einige Fakten über Schnee-Eulen
Die Schnee-Eule ist in den arktischen Regionen ansässig.
Höhe des Weibchens: etwa 64 cm, Höhe des Männchens: knapp 60 cm
Flügelspannweite: bis zu 1,5 m
Durchschnittsgewicht Weibchen: etwa 2 kg, Männchen: etwa 1,7 kg
Die folgende Beschreibung gibt Ihnen einen Einblick in die Art und
Weise, wie sich die Schnee-Eule an ihre Umgebung anpasst.
Farbe
Im Sommer sind die Schnee-Eulen zimtfarbig mit dunklen Flecken, im
Winter sind sie praktisch weiss. Dank dieser jahreszeitabhängigen
Farbe der Federn können sie sich beim Jagen gut verstecken. Im warmen
Wetter fallen sie auf dem Boden nicht auf und im Winter sind sie im
Schnee fast unsichtbar. Ihre Eier sehen wie der Tundra-Boden aus.
Hörvermögen
Schnee-Eulen können die für sie wichtigen Töne - das Piepsen und
Rascheln ihrer Beute - viel detaillierter wahrnehmen als Menschen.
Sie lernen schon früh, Klänge zu identifizieren, damit sie
abschätzen können, ob sich eine bestimmte Beute für sie lohnt. Ihr
rundes Gesicht mit den reflektierenden Federn dient ihnen als
Schallsammler und lenkt den Schall zu den Ohröffnungen. Diese
Anordnung verstärkt die Schallwahrnehmung so stark, dass ohne sie die
Schnee-Eule doppelt so laute Geräusche für die genaue Ortung der
Beute benötigen würde.
Sehvermögen
Dank ihrem Sehvermögen können sie ihre Beute aus einer grossen
Distanz erkennen.
Jagdverhalten
Schnee-Eulen jagen normalerweise am Tag, manchmal in der Nacht, indem
sie auf ihre Beute sitzend warten. Sie fangen die Beute auf dem Boden,
in der Luft
oder auf der Wasseroberfläche.
Migration
Schnee-Eulen sind Nomaden. Ihre Bewegungen hängen vom Vorhandensein
ihrer Hauptbeute, den Lemmingen, ab. Wenn der Bestand der Beutetiere
abnimmt und es sehr kalt wird, zieht die Schnee-Eule in Richtung
Süden.
Diese Aspekte - die natürlich nicht vollständig sind - zeigen,
wieso die Schnee-Eule ein passendes Symbol für Savia ist. Die
adaptiven Fähigkeiten und Präzision widerspiegeln die Qualitäten,
die Savia einmalig machen. "
And they describe some aspects of their products:
"Savia Phonak
Das neue Hörgerät Savia setzt die gesamte Weisheit der Natur
technologisch perfekt um. Es sorgt bei höchstem Komfort für
entspanntes, natürliches Verstehen in allen Hörsituationen.Die Natur
hat die Schnee-Eule mit der besonderen Fähigkeit ausgestattet, sich
kontinuierlich an die Umgebung anzupassen. Für Savia ist die Natur das
Vorbild. Es ist das erste Hörsystem, das einmalige Eigenschaften von
biologischen Systemen in digitale Hochtechnologie umsetzt - wir nennen
dies Digital Bionics. Savia Digital Bionics: entspannntes natürliches
Hören in allen Umgebungen.
Technologisches Herzstück des digitalen bionischen Hörsystems ist der
weltweit kleinste und leistungsfähigste
Signalverarbeitungsprozessor(Chip).
Einige Vorteile:
Echoblock (SoundCleaning)
Stör- und Windgeräusch-Unterdrückung (SoundCleaning)
Gegenphasige Rückkopplungsauslöschung (SoundCleaning)
SoundNavigation (AutoPilot)
EasyPhone (AutoPilot)
Natürliche Schallortung (AutoFocus)
Informationsmaterial anfordern: savia@hansaton.at "
Link:
http://www.hansaton.at/ccha/consumer_ha/individual_ha/products_ha/ha_consumer_individual_products_savia_phonak.htm
------------------------------
Jan wrote:
| Quote: | yes I am the synthesis of eastern and western knowledge, and some
more even more important that every person should know, but does not.
and i asked:
If we should know, better tell us (or provide a link to this knowledge).
Jan answered:
www.maharaji.org.
Want a teacher?
|
This maharaji is all about giving to the poor people, like the
tsunami-victims.
What i do not comprehend, why shall i give to him, the professional
found-raiser,
and not direct to these people. When i donate direct, they will get the
full 100% of it.
| Quote: | You already disagree with me, now have fun.
Up to now, this discussion didn't offer any substantial help to te |
deaf.
We can have fun in this and enjoy,
when we make progress.
Hero |
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Angelo Campanella
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 226
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
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|
maestro wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, I did read that. I was slightly concerned that you were rather
vague about the difference between travelling waves and standing waves
- on the other hand I think we both agree that the hydrodynamic aspects
of 'waves' in the cochlear fluid and basilar membrane are irrelevant.
I'm glad you avoid discussing 'sound waves' - although the pressure
variations can be analysed mathematically into component sinewaves,
there is nothing particularly wave-like about typical sound signals,
which actually consist of a stream of rapid and visually very arbitrary
wobbles of the air pressure, unlike your neat sinusoidal picture which
you give
|
Be aware that there is a third kind of acoustic pressure field; that
within a resonating system.
It is often observed in closed resilent vessels:
Consider a large wine bottle; of several liters capacity. When full, one
hears a resonance frequency whose wavelength seems to be uncorrleated to
the dimensions of the bottle, neither in air or in liquid (essentially
water). This is because the water as a mass is resonating with the
elasticity of the vessel acting as a spring. This is not a "wavelength"
phenomenon. Rather, it is what the elctrical engineers call a "lumped
parameter" mode where the physical attributes are dimensionless entities
of mass and capacitance.
Glass (bottle material), having a very high modulus of elasticity,
brings this resonance frequecy into the mid-audio range. If the bottle
were instead made of plastic, the modulus of that plastic being so
small, that resonance is somwhere in the infrasound range, and all we
hear when taping on it is a 'thud' if anything.
Now consider the cochlea, which is a bone-like miniature bottle; quite
small, so that this bottle mode resonance frequency is audible. I
suspect that this resonance mode is somewhere inthe low audio range.
Having this as the mechaical model, one next sets their mind to modeling
and predicting the fluid vs cochlear framework relative motions that can
be inspired by pressure undulations introduced mechanically by the
stapes bone's tapping on the oval window. I'm sure that Bekesey has
thought and written about this mode... It should explain the unusual
robustness of low frequency hearing at all ages, including the elderly.
Angelo Campanella |
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TheGhost
science forum addict
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 85
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:59 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
|
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|
Angelo Campanella <a.campanella@att.net> wrote in
news:mRHRf.561270$qk4.504133@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
snip...snip
| Quote: | Now consider the cochlea, which is a bone-like miniature bottle; quite
small, so that this bottle mode resonance frequency is audible. I
suspect that this resonance mode is somewhere inthe low audio range.
|
The cochlea is not sealed. Fluid pressure relief is provided by the round
window. Consequently, such a bottle-mode resonance is not possible.
Additionally, the basic concept is fundamentally invalid because hair cells
do not respond to fluid pressure.
| Quote: | Having this as the mechaical model, one next sets their mind to modeling
and predicting the fluid vs cochlear framework relative motions that can
be inspired by pressure undulations introduced mechanically by the
stapes bone's tapping on the oval window. I'm sure that Bekesey has
thought and written about this mode... It should explain the unusual
robustness of low frequency hearing at all ages, including the elderly.
Angelo Campanella
|
The correct explanation for the robustness of low frequency hearing at all
ages is that hair-cell damage/loss occurs primarily in the basal turn of
the cochlea. Except under very rare and unusual circumstances, hair cell
damage does not occur the apical turns of the cochlea, where hair cells are
most sensitive to low frequencies. |
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Angelo Campanella
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 226
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:42 am Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
|
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|
The Ghost wrote:
| Quote: | The cochlea is not sealed. Fluid pressure relief is provided by the round
window.
|
If ther is to be any detection by heair cells, an acoustic fluid
velicity relative to the hair is necessary. If the velocity is to exist,
then ther needs to be volume displacement downstrmof the hir cell. The
velocity is inspired by the motion of and at the oval window.
I was modeling a volume displacement based on elastic expansion of the
cochelar walls downstream. You point out that the cochlea is not sealed.
OK, then somewhere there has to be a "leak" or sink. One of the models
I recall ages ago (perhaps I have nmisinterpreted it) was that the fluid
channel folds back; there being a septum midway on the crossection that
divides the cochlear channel into upper and lower halves. All well and
good. This allows for more compliance and volume flow, possibly. It
alternatively requires a sink accomdation at the end of that jorney,
under or by the oval window, or elastic cochlear walls as I originally
postulated.
| Quote: | Consequently, such a bottle-mode resonance is not possible.
Additionally, the basic concept is fundamentally invalid because hair cells
do not respond to fluid pressure.
|
The pressure connotation is unfortunate. I was using as a idway point in
the disussion..
| Quote: | The correct explanation for the robustness of low frequency hearing at all
ages is that hair-cell damage/loss occurs primarily in the basal turn of
the cochlea. Except under very rare and unusual circumstances, hair cell
damage does not occur the apical turns of the cochlea, where hair cells are
most sensitive to low frequencies.
|
In other discssions, we are considering the problem that such low
frequency hearing survival causes in the middle aged and elderly living
in very quiet homes. A few unfortnate souls hear "hums" and the like
that disturb them ("Taos hum", etc). There has to be a difference in the
hearing thershold for the elderly, especially women, who are the
majority of the compliaintants. Our contmporary endeavors include
attempts at tracking down and identifying the source of these low
frequency, low level sounds. We have not had much success at making
clear and convining identifiation of same.
Angelo Campanella
|
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TheGhost
science forum addict
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 85
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
|
|
|
Angelo Campanella <a.campanella@att.net> wrote in
news:nsQRf.563687$qk4.106804@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
| Quote: | The Ghost wrote:
The cochlea is not sealed. Fluid pressure relief is provided by the
round window.
If ther is to be any detection by heair cells, an acoustic fluid
velicity relative to the hair is necessary. If the velocity is to
exist, then ther needs to be volume displacement downstrmof the hir
cell. The velocity is inspired by the motion of and at the oval
window.
|
In the cochlea, there are three fluid filled channels and two types of
fluid. The two fluids (endolymph and perilymph) have different chemical
composotions and do not mix. There is also a relatively thick membrane
that lies over the hair cells. The details of the micromechanics and
stimulation of the hair cells unsettled and remain are a matter of heated
debate and conrovercy. Nonetheless, it is obvious from the anatomy alone
that fluid motion in the upper and lower channels is not simply related to
the motion of endolymph in the gap between the tops of the hair cells and
the bottom of the tectorial membrane.
| Quote: | I was modeling a volume displacement based on elastic expansion of the
cochelar walls downstream. You point out that the cochlea is not
sealed. OK, then somewhere there has to be a "leak" or sink. One of
the models I recall ages ago (perhaps I have nmisinterpreted it) was
that the fluid channel folds back; there being a septum midway on the
crossection that divides the cochlear channel into upper and lower
halves. All well and good. This allows for more compliance and volume
flow, possibly. It alternatively requires a sink accomdation at the
end of that jorney, under or by the oval window, or elastic cochlear
walls as I originally postulated.
|
The pressure release provided by the round window does indeed increase
volume flow, but it also moves your bottle-mode resonance down and out of
the the audible frequency range. Additionally, the volume flow is
transverse, across the cochlear partition, not longitudinal along the scala
vesibuli. Specifically, when the stapes (above the cochlear partition)
moves in, the round window membrane (below the cochlear partition) bulges
out. The resultant volume flow displaces the basilar membrand downward and
initiates the transverse traveling wave which involves energy exchange
between the transverse stiffness of the cochlear partition and the mass of
the fluid. It is similar to transverse wave motion along a nonuniform
free-free bar that is hit at one end.
| Quote: | Consequently, such a bottle-mode resonance is not possible.
Additionally, the basic concept is fundamentally invalid because hair
cells do not respond to fluid pressure.
The pressure connotation is unfortunate. I was using as a idway point
in the disussion..
The correct explanation for the robustness of low frequency hearing
at all ages is that hair-cell damage/loss occurs primarily in the
basal turn of the cochlea. Except under very rare and unusual
circumstances, hair cell damage does not occur the apical turns of
the cochlea, where hair cells are most sensitive to low frequencies.
In other discssions, we are considering the problem that such low
frequency hearing survival causes in the middle aged and elderly
living in very quiet homes. A few unfortnate souls hear "hums" and the
like that disturb them ("Taos hum", etc). There has to be a difference
in the hearing thershold for the elderly, especially women, who are
the majority of the compliaintants. Our contmporary endeavors include
attempts at tracking down and identifying the source of these low
frequency, low level sounds. We have not had much success at making
clear and convining identifiation of same.
Angelo Campanella
|
I wish you luck with that futile endeavor. I do not believe that the Taos
Hum percept is caused by external low-frequency sound, nor do I believe
that the elderly to whom you refer have lower low-frequency auditory
thresholds. To the best of my knowledge, to date no one has provided any
evidence of the presence of such sound or of the lowered thresholds among
the elderly. |
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TheGhost
science forum addict
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 85
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject:
Re: from Bekesy to cochlear implants
|
|
|
"maestro" <StpNrrs@aol.com> wrote in
news:1141698769.090466.48470@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:
snip....snip
| Quote: | Given that the travelling wave theory is known to be
incorrect.....,
|
snip....ship
If the traveling wave theory is incorrect, what is alternative explanation
for the CF-dependent latency of the responses of auditory nerve fibers to
acoustic clicks and for the measured CF-dependent phase shift and
associated group delay of the phase-locked responses of auditory nerve
fibers to steady-state sinusoidal acoustic excitation? |
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