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Mike Holt
science forum beginner
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:
Re: Request information about the sale price of a fully automated miniature submarine.
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Let's think about this again. Fifty centimeters is a feet and about 7
inches.
What's the date? |
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Brian Whatcott
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Request information about the sale price of a fully automated miniature submarine.
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On 01 Apr 2006 08:25:30 GMT, Greg Locock <greglocock@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
| Quote: | Brian Whatcott <betwys1@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:2etr229oalg2q648akcde7moqlkohei20j@4ax.com:
$476
Torpedoes are faster and have a bigger payload, but this device has abilities way
beyond a torpedo in some respects. A torpedo runs about a million dollars a pop.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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Gregg,
here was the question:
" My question is, in the opinions of those who read this: What
price do you think such a device as I have here described can fetch on
say, eBay?"
That's eBay, not DoD.
So let me ask: would you pay a million for a 20 inch long submersible
boat with photocells and a micro-controller on eBay?
If so, there must be something I could sell you too?
Regards
Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
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jim
science forum beginner
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Request information about the sale price of a fully automated miniature submarine.
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Brian Whatcott wrote:
| Quote: |
On 01 Apr 2006 08:25:30 GMT, Greg Locock <greglocock@yahoo.com.au
wrote:
Brian Whatcott <betwys1@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:2etr229oalg2q648akcde7moqlkohei20j@4ax.com:
$476
Torpedoes are faster and have a bigger payload, but this device has abilities way
beyond a torpedo in some respects. A torpedo runs about a million dollars a pop.
|
He didn't say that's what anybody would pay he suggested a million is
what it would cost to build, which makes The OP's question irrelevant.
Whatever they pay it won't be enough.
The whole thing sounds pretty bogus. As far as I can tell to satisfy
the problem requirements the class simply needs to build a device that
will submerge out of sight and then reappear 6 weeks later. For the
professor to check on the rest of his silly requirements would require
equipment even more sophisticated then his theoretical device itself.
-jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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Everett M. Greene
science forum beginner
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Request information about the sale price of a fully automated miniature submarine.
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jim <"sjedgingN0sp"@m@mwt.net> writes:
| Quote: | Brian Whatcott wrote:
On 01 Apr 2006 08:25:30 GMT, Greg Locock <greglocock@yahoo.com.au
wrote:
Brian Whatcott <betwys1@sbcglobal.net> wrote
$476
Torpedoes are faster and have a bigger payload, but this device has abilities way
beyond a torpedo in some respects. A torpedo runs about a million dollars a pop.
He didn't say that's what anybody would pay he suggested a million is
what it would cost to build, which makes The OP's question irrelevant.
Whatever they pay it won't be enough.
The whole thing sounds pretty bogus. As far as I can tell to satisfy
the problem requirements the class simply needs to build a device that
will submerge out of sight and then reappear 6 weeks later. For the
professor to check on the rest of his silly requirements would require
equipment even more sophisticated then his theoretical device itself.
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One of the requirements was that it be undetectable.
One thought that occurred to me while reading the OP
is where anywhere near Tempe are they going to find
water 100 m. deep to test the device? |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Request information about the sale price of a fully automated miniature submarine.
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Dear Everett M. Greene:
"Everett M. Greene" <mojaveg@mojaveg.iwvisp.com> wrote in message
news:20060402.7ADFE30.89D7@mojaveg.iwvisp.com...
....
| Quote: | One thought that occurred to me while reading the OP
is where anywhere near Tempe are they going to find
water 100 m. deep to test the device?
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"an Arizona University" is inclusive of Arizona State, University
of Arizona, and Northern Arizona University. And that would be
Roosevelt Dam, Roosevelt Dam, and one of the dams along the
Colorado respectively. Besides, they'd likely go someplace
cooler for trials... like the Great Lakes.
David A. Smith |
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Herman Family
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Request information about the sale price of a fully automated miniature submarine.
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:h2UXf.12324$kT4.10725@fed1read02...
| Quote: | Dear Everett M. Greene:
"Everett M. Greene" <mojaveg@mojaveg.iwvisp.com> wrote in message
news:20060402.7ADFE30.89D7@mojaveg.iwvisp.com...
...
One thought that occurred to me while reading the OP
is where anywhere near Tempe are they going to find
water 100 m. deep to test the device?
"an Arizona University" is inclusive of Arizona State, University of
Arizona, and Northern Arizona University. And that would be Roosevelt
Dam, Roosevelt Dam, and one of the dams along the Colorado respectively.
Besides, they'd likely go someplace cooler for trials... like the Great
Lakes.
David A. Smith
I would imagine that planning to make such a device and test it or deploy it |
around a major dam would generate an alphabet soup of interest before it was
over.
Michael |
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Jon Baum
science forum beginner
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:49 am Post subject:
More Funding Questions.
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In light of this tempest of response in such a short time, I would
like to pick your brains about the possible sale price of some other
suggested projects:
I:
A Gauss gun (for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, a Gauss
gun is a series of electromagnetic coils surrounding a tube, a magnetic
projectile is placed at one end, and each of the coils is activated in
sequence, causing rapid acceleration of said projectile. For those of
you who do know, I apoligise for being patronising, or pedantic; it
comes with the proffession.) capable of launching a projectile at
anywhere between a pellet gun and a rifle, with as short a length of
time between shots as possible (the capacitators need to charge) and
also able to hit a target (no larger than 25 cm by 25 cm) accurately at
a distance of 250 meters.
II:
An automated aircraft (suggested by the same girl who proposed the
minisub) capable of attaining speeds of 20mph, flying at over 200
meters of elevation, carrying a small (75 gram) payload, evading
detection, and flying for over three hours in favorable weather
conditions.
Once again, your suggestions would be most greatfully appreciated.
Sincerely yours,
-Jon Baum |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:33 am Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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Dear Jon Baum:
"Jon Baum" <brighteyedidealist@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1144028958.678835.296290@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
.... also called a rail gun.
Neither worth anything to me.
David A. Smith |
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Jon Baum
science forum beginner
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
| Quote: | Dear Jon Baum:
"Jon Baum" <brighteyedidealist@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1144028958.678835.296290@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
A Gauss gun
... also called a rail gun.
Neither worth anything to me.
David A. Smith
|
Oh no! A railgun is something entirely different! It uses a projectile
that is actually a magnet, and it uses rails, not coils, hence the
name. Also, the force utilised by a railgun is not magnetism, as in the
Gauss gun, but rather a property thereof, the Lorentz force. Besides,
where in a gauss gun, the projectile moves perdendicular to the
electromagnet, in a railgun, the force runs parallel to it. Or them, as
the case may be.
Sincerely yours,
-Jon Baum |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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Dear Jon Baum:
"Jon Baum" <brighteyedidealist@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1144064197.608384.122890@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Jon Baum:
"Jon Baum" <brighteyedidealist@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1144028958.678835.296290@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
A Gauss gun
... also called a rail gun.
Neither worth anything to me.
Oh no! A railgun is something entirely different!
It uses a projectile that is actually a magnet,
|
They fire, most commonly, aluminum slugs. A changing magnetic
field is used to induce eddy currents in the slug. The slug is
"gripped" by these currents.
| Quote: | and it uses rails, not coils,
|
Yes, there are coils in a railgun.
| Quote: | hence the
name. Also, the force utilised by a railgun is
not magnetism,
|
Magnetism is part and parcel of a railgun.
| Quote: | as in the Gauss gun, but rather a property
thereof, the Lorentz force.
|
Magnetism itself does not add energy to the motion of a slug. It
is only the "Lorentz force" as you call it that can do this, just
as it is in an electric motor and its rotor.
| Quote: | Besides,
where in a gauss gun, the projectile moves
perdendicular to the electromagnet, in a railgun,
the force runs parallel to it. Or them, as
the case may be.
|
I think you are making a distinction without a difference.
David A. Smith |
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Harry Andreas
science forum beginner
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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In article <1144028958.678835.296290@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Jon
Baum" <brighteyedidealist@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | In light of this tempest of response in such a short time, I would
like to pick your brains about the possible sale price of some other
suggested projects:
I:
A Gauss gun (for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, a Gauss
gun is a series of electromagnetic coils surrounding a tube, a magnetic
projectile is placed at one end, and each of the coils is activated in
sequence, causing rapid acceleration of said projectile. For those of
you who do know, I apoligise for being patronising, or pedantic; it
comes with the proffession.) capable of launching a projectile at
anywhere between a pellet gun and a rifle, with as short a length of
time between shots as possible (the capacitators need to charge) and
also able to hit a target (no larger than 25 cm by 25 cm) accurately at
a distance of 250 meters.
|
Devices with greater capability are currently being funded by DARPA.
To execute such a device will cost millions.
| Quote: | II:
An automated aircraft (suggested by the same girl who proposed the
minisub) capable of attaining speeds of 20mph, flying at over 200
meters of elevation, carrying a small (75 gram) payload, evading
detection, and flying for over three hours in favorable weather
conditions.
|
These devices are already on the market by at least two companies
for tactical reconnaissance.
Why the fascination with military hardware?
--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur |
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Tom Sanderson
science forum addict
Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote
| Quote: | I think you are making a distinction without a difference.
|
Not so.
A Gauss gun uses a ferrous projectile with a series of electromagnet coils
with their axis co-incident with the barrel axis. The coils are powered in
sequence to pull the projectile down the barrel. The coils have to be
actively controlled to match the power sequence to the projectile position.
It's purely a magnetic force which accelerates the projectile. Think of it
as a whole bunch of solenoids with the projectile being passed from one to
the other.
A rail gun uses a conductive (not necessarily magnetic) projectile which
rides on two rails which are parallel but offset to each side of the barrel
axis. A magnetic field is set up by coils *perpendicular* to the barrel
axis and the rail plane (not parallel as in a Gauss gun) and a very high
voltage is introduced between the two rails. Current passes from one rail
to the other through the projectile...it's the interaction of this current
and magentic field (both perpendicular to the barrel axis) which accelerates
the projectile down the barrel. No sequencing necessary, as the current
moves with the projectile.
Tom. |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:07 am Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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Dear Tom Sanderson:
"Tom Sanderson" <tdscanuck@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ix6163.16H@news.boeing.com...
| Quote: | "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com
wrote
I think you are making a distinction without a difference.
Not so.
|
You (and the OP) are correct.
| Quote: | A Gauss gun uses a ferrous projectile with a
series of electromagnet coils with their axis
co-incident with the barrel axis.
The coils are powered in sequence to pull the
projectile down the barrel. The coils have to be actively
controlled to match the power
sequence to the projectile position. It's purely
a magnetic force which accelerates the projectile.
|
Pedantic point: in the frame of the projectile, there is a
strong *electrostatic* force. The magnetic field is quite weak
at that point. Magnetic fields cannot transfer energy... only
change directions. If you find a magnet "changing speed", it is
the induced/actual "electrostatic" field doing it.
| Quote: | Think of it as a whole bunch of solenoids with the projectile
being passed from one to the other.
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun
.... aka "coilgun"
| Quote: | A rail gun uses a conductive (not necessarily magnetic)
projectile which rides on two rails which are parallel but
offset to each side of the barrel axis. A magnetic field
is set up by coils *perpendicular* to the barrel axis and
the rail plane (not parallel as in a Gauss gun) and a
very high voltage is introduced between the two rails.
Current passes from one rail to the other through the
projectile...it's the interaction of this current and
magentic field (both perpendicular to the barrel axis)
which accelerates the projectile down the barrel. No
sequencing necessary, as the current moves with the
projectile.
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
I had them conflated in my head. Thanks for your efforts.
Are you familiar with "linear induction motors"? They are used
many places, some of which are amusement park rides. A magnetic
field is set up transverse to the intended direction of motion,
then the field is quenched and/or reversed. Eddy currents in the
conductive aluminum plate provide resistance to the reversal, and
a thrust is produced. Not railgun or gauss gun speeds but...
http://www.force.co.uk/howmain.htm
http://tech2.nytimes.com/mem/technology/techreview.html?res=9A01E3DA1430F933A0575BC0A9679C8B63
David A. Smith |
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Smitty
science forum addict
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:23 am Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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In article <1144028958.678835.296290@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Jon Baum" <brighteyedidealist@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | In light of this tempest of response in such a short time, I would
like to pick your brains about the possible sale price of some other
suggested projects:
I:
A Gauss gun (for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, a Gauss
gun is a series of electromagnetic coils surrounding a tube, a magnetic
projectile is placed at one end, and each of the coils is activated in
sequence, causing rapid acceleration of said projectile. For those of
you who do know, I apoligise for being patronising, or pedantic; it
comes with the proffession.) capable of launching a projectile at
anywhere between a pellet gun and a rifle, with as short a length of
time between shots as possible (the capacitators need to charge) and
also able to hit a target (no larger than 25 cm by 25 cm) accurately at
a distance of 250 meters.
II:
An automated aircraft (suggested by the same girl who proposed the
minisub) capable of attaining speeds of 20mph, flying at over 200
meters of elevation, carrying a small (75 gram) payload, evading
detection, and flying for over three hours in favorable weather
conditions.
Once again, your suggestions would be most greatfully appreciated.
Sincerely yours,
-Jon Baum
|
I have a suggestion, in the form of a rhetorical question: Why not focus
your intellectual and creative energy, and those of your, uh, students,
on peaceful pursuits? |
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Hungry Ghost
science forum beginner
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject:
Re: More Funding Questions.
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| Quote: | I have a suggestion, in the form of a rhetorical question: Why not focus
your intellectual and creative energy, and those of your, uh, students,
on peaceful pursuits?
|
Not all of these seem to be solely militarily minded. What the
good professor suggests seems to be quite peaceful, in fact. He
specifically mentioned a DUD missile, implying something more in line
with a flare than a grenade. Also, gauss guns, as well as railguns have
applications in metal working, high energy particle physics, space
travel, as well as in the military. Still, the aircraft seems a bit
suspicious, and I cant think of too many uses for it other than
dropping grenades or biochemical weapons, or smuggling drugs. But
anyone who says they are something should be believed; this Jon Baum
could just as easily be a fourteen year old in Illinois as a government
contractor or a terrorist. ^_^
*~~^Alexandria^~~*
"There must be a beginning of any great matter, but the continuing unto
the end until it be thoroughly finished yields the true glory." ~ Sir
Francis Drake |
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