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J. B. Wood science forum beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 8
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:19 am Post subject:
The Elegant Universe
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Hello, all. PBS is re-airing Brian Greene's NOVA series here in the metro
Washington DC area. Dr. Greene explains, in plain language (the "Isaac
Asimov approach" for the lay person), the principles of QM and GM and the
historical quest to unify these theories. My question is to those of you
with expertise in the GM/QM area - Are the explanations provided by Dr.
Greene and the other presumbly notable physicists in the NOVA series
shared by the community of physicists at large? Thanks for your time and
comment. Sincerely,
John Wood (Code 5550) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337 |
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bjflanagan science forum beginner
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 39
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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J. B. Wood wrote:
My question is to those of you
| Quote: | with expertise in the GM/QM area - Are the explanations provided by Dr.
Greene and the other presumbly notable physicists in the NOVA series
shared by the community of physicists at large?
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I think Greene does a superb job of explaining matters. His technical
work in the field is also quite readable and well respected. See, e.g.,
the following, which was recommended to me some years ago by Baez:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9702/9702155.pdf
As to the community of physicists at large... string/M-theory remains
controversial in some circles, despite its many impressive
achievements. Glashow in particular takes a dim view of the whole
subject, but then he seems to have made a career of being a curmudgeon.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/view-glashow.html
On a broader level, I have severe reservations as to whether it matters
much what most physicists "think." In their article in Sci Am on "100
Years of Quantum Theory," Wheeler and Tegmark quote Gell-Mann as saying
that Bohr and Heisenberg "brainwashed" a generation of physicists into
accepting the quaint notion that QM was a finished product. Wick, in
his semi-popular book on 'The Infamous Boundary,' relates that, should
some unfortunate student question the foundations too closely,
instructors tends to indulge in a lot of hand waving or send the poor
soul off to search Bohr's famously obscure writings for a coherent
exposition. And this is the state of the art in our most advanced
science. |
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Uncle Al science forum Guru
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1226
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:20 am Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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"J. B. Wood" wrote:
| Quote: |
Hello, all. PBS is re-airing Brian Greene's NOVA series here in the metro
Washington DC area. Dr. Greene explains, in plain language (the "Isaac
Asimov approach" for the lay person), the principles of QM and GM and the
historical quest to unify these theories. My question is to those of you
with expertise in the GM/QM area - Are the explanations provided by Dr.
Greene and the other presumbly notable physicists in the NOVA series
shared by the community of physicists at large? Thanks for your time and
comment. Sincerely,
|
Depends. The mathematics is self-consistent and not subject to
controversy. The models are a matter of personal taste, neither valid
nor invalid - philosophy! Whether any of the foregoing bears on the
nature of physical reality is simply unknown. None of this bushwa is
predictive. Absent empirical test for falsification, prediction vs.
observation, it's not science. That doesn't mean it is not useful,
but it is not science.
Consider a half cycle of a sine wave. You can approximate it with a
polynomial to arbitrary accuracy. Even a cubic fit is mighty good for
interpolation. Heck, it will give you a whole cycle! Alas, a cubic
fit to a sine curve isn't worth squat extrapolated outside that
interval. Economics is analytical gold and predictive crap for the
same reason.
At least physicists have the good taste not to shout
"heteroskedasticity!" and toss in another variable to go another
cycle. Maybe.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf |
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Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, J. B. Wood wrote:
| Quote: | PBS is re-airing Brian Greene's NOVA series here in the metro Washington
DC area. Dr. Greene explains, in plain language (the "Isaac Asimov
approach" for the lay person), the principles of QM and GM and the
historical quest to unify these theories. My question is to those of
you with expertise in the GM/QM area - Are the explanations provided by
Dr. Greene and the other presumbly notable physicists in the NOVA series
shared by the community of physicists at large? Thanks for your time
and comment.
|
There are two rather different interpretations of your query and I see
that Uncle Al went one way and bj flanagan the other.
So which is it--- are you asking for an assessment of how well physicists
regard the quality of BG's exposition of the ideas of general relativity,
string theory, etc., or are you asking how seriously physicists currently
take these ideas?
"T. Essel" (hiding somewhere in cyberspace) |
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Joseph.D.Warner science forum beginner
Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 1
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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J. B. Wood wrote:
| Quote: | Hello, all. PBS is re-airing Brian Greene's NOVA series here in the metro
Washington DC area. Dr. Greene explains, in plain language (the "Isaac
Asimov approach" for the lay person), the principles of QM and GM and the
historical quest to unify these theories. My question is to those of you
with expertise in the GM/QM area - Are the explanations provided by Dr.
Greene and the other presumbly notable physicists in the NOVA series
shared by the community of physicists at large? Thanks for your time and
comment. Sincerely,
|
We had a nice 2 hour seminar on this recently. It is beautiful
mathematics. There is a hand waving argument for the connection to the
physical world but until it can predict an observation or explain an
observation it remains as a very pretty, untested physical theory. The
lovely graphics of replacing the interaction terms in the Feyman's
diagram with closed strings is still just illustrations.
I hope that the heavy particle colliders will be able to shed light on
whether string theory is the right path to advance physics or not. If it
is then more research is needed. If it isn't other promising theories
can be pursued. |
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J. B. Wood science forum beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 8
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506130324520.24859@zeno1.math.washington.edu>,
tessel@um.bot wrote:
| Quote: | So which is it--- are you asking for an assessment of how well physicists
regard the quality of BG's exposition of the ideas of general relativity,
string theory, etc., or are you asking how seriously physicists currently
take these ideas?
"T. Essel" (hiding somewhere in cyberspace)
|
Hello, and first let me thank everyone for their responses. Very
eye-opening. With regard to the above I assumed Dr. Greene was presenting
the concepts as clearly as can be expected sans advanced math. Sincerely,
John Wood (Code 5550) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337 |
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bjflanagan science forum beginner
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 39
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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Uncle Al wrote:
The models are a matter of personal taste, neither valid nor invalid -
philosophy!
Flanagan
This popular modern thought-cliche is a wonderful device whereby the
user achieves an illusion of intellectual superiority to all
philosophers while simultaneously maintaining a hermetic ignorance of
their subject.
Uncle Al:
Whether any of the foregoing bears on the nature of physical reality is
simply unknown. None of this bushwa is predictive.
Flanagan
By now the pattern should be clear.
Uncle Al:
Absent empirical test for falsification, prediction vs. observation,
it's not science. That doesn't mean it is not useful, but it is not
science.
Flanagan
Those who work in string theory are trained as scientists. Their highly
mathematical subject is constrained by physical parameters. String
theory is post-dictive in that it accounts for a vast body of
experimental data.
So far as prediction goes, the theory postulates the existence of
projective vector manifolds which fiber over space-time; curiously
enough, we observe such manifolds every waking moment, but this obvious
identification is not made for reasons which are essentially
philosophical -- or, more accurately, are due to an often smug
ignorance of philosophy.
"Thus the colors with their various qualities and intensities fulfill
the axioms of vector geometry if addition is interpreted as mixing;
consequently, projective geometry applies to the color qualities."
(Weyl)
"... so few and far between are the occasions for forming notions whose
specialisations make up a continuous manifoldness, that the only simple
notions whose specialisations form a multiply extended manifoldness are
the positions of perceived objects and colours." (Riemann)
"A speck in the visual field, though it need not be red must have some
colour; it is, so to speak, surrounded by colour-space. Notes must have
some pitch, objects of the sense of touch some degree of hardness, and
so on." (Wittgenstein)
"It has often been said, and certainly not without justification, that
the man of science makes a poor philosopher. Why then should it not be
the right thing for the physicist to let the philosopher do the
philosophizing? Such indeed might be the right thing at a time when the
physicist believes he has at his disposal a rigid system of fundamental
concepts and fundamental laws which are so well established that waves
of doubt can not reach them; but, it can not be right at a time when
the very foundations of physics itself have become problematic as they
are now... In contrast to psychology, physics treats only of sense
experiences and of the 'understanding' of their connection. But even
the concept of the 'real external world' of everyday thinking rests
exclusively on sense impressions." (Einstein) |
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FearlessFerret science forum beginner
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:26 am Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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J. B. Wood wrote:
| Quote: | Hello, all. PBS is re-airing Brian Greene's NOVA series here in the metro
Washington DC area. Dr. Greene explains, in plain language (the "Isaac
Asimov approach" for the lay person), the principles of QM and GM and the
historical quest to unify these theories. My question is to those of you
with expertise in the GM/QM area - Are the explanations provided by Dr.
Greene and the other presumbly notable physicists in the NOVA series
shared by the community of physicists at large? Thanks for your time and
comment. Sincerely,
|
First off, I bought the DVDs and my two kids (now 6 & are big fans. I am
indebted to Dr. Greene for providing a fantastic opportunity to introduce this
challenging field to children most people would assume are too young to take an
interest.
However I thought the series had technical shortcomings. It did not seriously
explore the problems in ST. I particularly take issue with the sequence which
discusses how exciting it would be to discover the Disappearing Graviton even
though (AFAIK) we don't have the faintest clue how this could be done, not to
mention that anyone who proved the existence of even a NON-Disappearing Graviton
would be guaranteed a Nobel Prize (am I wrong about this?).
/ff |
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Guest
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:26 am Post subject:
Re: The Elegant Universe
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I inquired:
| Quote: | are you asking for an assessment of how well physicists regard the
quality of BG's exposition of the ideas of general relativity, string
theory, etc., or are you asking how seriously physicists currently take
these ideas?
|
J. B. replied:
| Quote: | With regard to the above I assumed Dr. Greene was presenting the
concepts as clearly as can be expected sans advanced math.
|
So: the second case.
As a non-physicist, I won't try to answer the question. I'll do better:
I'll suggest how you can answer it -yourself-, if you're willing to do
some detective work.
If you accept the premise that devoting a large proportion of your
time/money to topic A is an indication that you take topic A seriously,
one way to answer your question semi-objectively is to ask what research
topics have been the most popular in physics the past five years. E.g. you
can ask, which physics papers (or which authors) have been most often
cited in the past five years, in which fields the most Ph.D.s have been
granted, the most grant money has been awarded, the most (best-attended)
conferences have been held, which Topics Groups have enjoyed the highest
population, etc.
A few specific suggestions to get you started, if you want to pursue this:
If you know some key buzzwords, you can search the ArXiv
http://www.arxiv.org/ to compare the number of papers on string theory wrt
other topics. This page might help:
http://arxiv.org/Stats/hcamonthly.html
These statistics suggest that you can focus on hep, cond-mat, astro-ph,
math-ph sections and try to determine what are the hottest topics in just
those sections.
For computer science citations, Citeseer http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/
offers a good way to quickly see who the most cited authors are. This
database does list at least some physics papers, but more to the point,
you can find CS papers on the problem of searching the web, citation
databases, etc., to find out who the most influentical authors are. The
conclusion is invariably, and I quote from one such paper, that "Edward
Witten is the most influential author" in physics, followed by Juan
Maldecena and other leading string theorists. However, if you go by field
of study, many say that condensed matter, not string theory, is the most
active.
(Note: some say the ArXiv is biased toward certain fields. Certainly this
NG is heavily biased toward certain topics like the research interests of
the most vocal contributors. In both cases, this no conspiracy, just some
kind of cultural phenomenon, in which devotees of different fields seem to
adopt different hangouts. Google and other search engines are also
biased, since PageRank uses the number of links to a page as an indication
of its value, but the most linked pages tend to develop even more links,
possibly to the detriment of more relevant pages.)
BTW, there is in fact a field called "scientometrics", the study of
citations in scientific fields. It even has its -own- journal, which is
amusingly self-referential! This is the place to go if you want to
learn about sources of systematic bias in citation searchs.
I expected to find on the ArXiv papers by physicists themselves on the
kind of questions I raised above. I didn't find quite what you might
want, but astro-ph/0005277 and cond-mat/0112049 may be helpful. The
professional societies should have information on the hottest areas by
Ph.Ds granted and grant money awarded. And you consult Science Citation
Index at your local research library. (There are on-line versions of
dedicated citation indices such as the Science Citation Index, e.g. Web of
Science, but AFAIK you will have to pay to use them.)
In short, you can really "go to town" with this, and if you become an
semi-expert, I am sure many here will be interested in hearing an
invidious quantitative comparison!
HTH, "T. Essel" |
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