| Author |
Message |
Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
|
 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:09 am Post subject:
An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
pl the Plank figure (just the 6.6 10^-34 figure not its
dimensions )
nz a nonzero figure !!
so the plank constant is never zero nz
and it is
nz (Plank constant ) = pl joule second = pl kg m^2/s^2
times s =
pl kg m^2 /s = nz
so
kg (mass of photon ) = s x nz / (divided by ) pl m ^2
( right ??)
since NON of the right side components is zero
kg (mass of photons) = nonzero !!
QED
Copyright Yehiel Porat 17-05-2006
-------------------
please note:
The above analysis was made possible once I realized that the Plank
Constant
was not just an inseparable physical entity!
If you follow its history and how it was derived
you realize that it is not a case in which first of all that constant
was found and
*only later* it was verified by measurements.
It is exactly the other way round!
i.e. first the results of experimental measurements of Energy versus
the frequency of photons
were plotted and a straight line was found.
the h factor was just the *slope* of that plotted straight line.
ONLY LATER people started to wonder what the meaning of that slope is
and later combined into one physical entity its physical components
(which are actually more basic components like mass velocity (length
seconds )
so if it was assembled it is also legitimate to decompose it into its
components
This of course provided you do it in a legitimate way .
so i found it legitimate to separate its components to the two sides of
an equation
starting from and based on the usual common formula.
(this is just another arrangement of its components )
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------- |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:14 am Post subject:
Re: An unprecedented prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
sorry a typo of the title
it should be : an unprecedented prove.....
Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: | here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
pl the Plank figure (just the 6.6 10^-34 figure not its
dimensions )
nz a nonzero figure !!
so the plank constant is never zero nz
and it is
nz (Plank constant ) = pl joule second = pl kg m^2/s^2
times s =
pl kg m^2 /s = nz
so
kg (mass of photon ) = s x nz / (divided by ) pl m ^2
( right ??)
since NON of the right side components is zero
kg (mass of photons) = nonzero !!
QED
Copyright Yehiel Porat 17-05-2006
-------------------
please note:
The above analysis was made possible once I realized that the Plank
Constant
was not just an inseparable physical entity!
If you follow its history and how it was derived
you realize that it is not a case in which first of all that constant
was found and
*only later* it was verified by measurements.
It is exactly the other way round!
i.e. first the results of experimental measurements of Energy versus
the frequency of photons
were plotted and a straight line was found.
the h factor was just the *slope* of that plotted straight line.
ONLY LATER people started to wonder what the meaning of that slope is
and later combined into one physical entity its physical components
(which are actually more basic components like mass velocity (length
seconds )
so if it was assembled it is also legitimate to decompose it into its
components
This of course provided you do it in a legitimate way .
so i found it legitimate to separate its components to the two sides of
an equation
starting from and based on the usual common formula.
(this is just another arrangement of its components )
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------- |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:21 am Post subject:
Re: An unprecedented prove that the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
sorry still another typo of the title...
i was too much focused on the main text so neglected the title
....(:-)
Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: | sorry a typo of the title
it should be : an unprecedented prove.....
Y.Porat wrote:
here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
pl the Plank figure (just the 6.6 10^-34 figure not its
dimensions )
nz a nonzero figure !!
so the plank constant is never zero nz
and it is
nz (Plank constant ) = pl joule second = pl kg m^2/s^2
times s =
pl kg m^2 /s = nz
so
kg (mass of photon ) = s x nz / (divided by ) pl m ^2
( right ??)
since NON of the right side components is zero
kg (mass of photons) = nonzero !!
QED
Copyright Yehiel Porat 17-05-2006
-------------------
please note:
The above analysis was made possible once I realized that the Plank
Constant
was not just an inseparable physical entity!
If you follow its history and how it was derived
you realize that it is not a case in which first of all that constant
was found and
*only later* it was verified by measurements.
It is exactly the other way round!
i.e. first the results of experimental measurements of Energy versus
the frequency of photons
were plotted and a straight line was found.
the h factor was just the *slope* of that plotted straight line.
ONLY LATER people started to wonder what the meaning of that slope is
and later combined into one physical entity its physical components
(which are actually more basic components like mass velocity (length
seconds )
so if it was assembled it is also legitimate to decompose it into its
components
This of course provided you do it in a legitimate way .
so i found it legitimate to separate its components to the two sides of
an equation
starting from and based on the usual common formula.
(this is just another arrangement of its components )
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------- |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Golden Boar
science forum Guru
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 651
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:29 am Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
so ????
what i syour bottom line?
does the photon has nonzero rest mass or not ???
TIA
Y.Porat
---------------------- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dda1
science forum Guru
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: |
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
---------------------
|
Perseverent cretin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: | here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
|
Why on earth would you insist on using MKS units?
There are other, much better systems of units available to you.
For example, you use different units for space (m) and for time (s),
when special relativity clearly says these two should not be measured
with different units, since they are different components of the same
thing. Note this is the *same* special relativity that gives you
another equation that you use: E=mc^2. So, if you're going to use a
unit analysis to derive physical meaning, at least use units that make
physical sense as suggested by relativity.
By the way, Porat, what I'm suggesting is NOT new. It is as old as the
hills, though it seems to have escaped you.
PD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
PD wrote:
| Quote: | Y.Porat wrote:
here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
Why on earth would you insist on using MKS units?
|
why on earth not ???iof it works with MKS why shoud i not use it
because it leads to results that dont fit your paradigm ??
2 if it works with MKS it must work with any other sysem!!
do you claim MKS is not legitimate ??
---------
| Quote: | There are other, much better systems of units available to you.
For example, you use different units for space (m) and for time (s),
when special relativity clearly says these two should not be measured
with different units, since they are different components of the same
thing. Note this is the *same* special relativity that gives you
another equation that you use: E=mc^2. So, if you're going to use a
unit analysis to derive physical meaning, at least use units that make
physical sense as suggested by relativity.
|
1 th elorentz factor does not apply for the photon
2 we use E=mc^2 for 'annihilation of mass'
why should we not use the same formula for creation of mass??
| Quote: |
By the way, Porat, what I'm suggesting is NOT new. It is as old as the
hills, though it seems to have escaped you.
|
it is not new and you showed nothing to fefute me
my main innovative point is that i 'unbundled ' the Plank consatnt to
its
mKS components
and once 'unbundeled' i can isolate the mass to the left side of the
eqaution
and all the rest of them to the right side whats wrong about it
??
do you claim i am not alowed to do it ??
TIA
Y.Porat
------------------
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
avergon@verizon.net
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 282
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
As usual, Porat is on the ball.
There is more than one way to say the same thing.
I have often been told that E = h nu proves the photon has no mass.
(Yes there are poor souls still believing that.) And I have to point
out to them that h contains mass,
As a unit of action, it can be expressed two ways, momentum times
distance or energy times time. Both energy and momentum have mass.
To have a litttle fun with h, I give it different dimensions.
m = mass
a = acceleration
d = distance or length
t = time
madt = h
mat = momentum
mad = energy
The fun part is the quantification of these dimentions:
a = c/sec^2
d = one light second
t = 1 sec
m = 7.372038 x 10^-48 gr.
So how do we verify m?
m x f (where f = frequency number) = mass of the photon, m_p. And
m_p times c^2 = h nu = E.
Further, m_p times the frequency of the electron, proton, and neutron
will yield the known mass of each.
I consider that verification that m is the correct mass. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Vert wrote:
| Quote: | As usual, Porat is on the ball.
There is more than one way to say the same thing.
I have often been told that E = h nu proves the photon has no mass.
|
Really? Who told you that? Experiment will determine if the photon has
nonzero mass, not an equation.
| Quote: | (Yes there are poor souls still believing that.) And I have to point
out to them that h contains mass,
|
It does? The units for h are (farad)*(coulomb)^2*(seconds).
Where do you see mass in that?
| Quote: |
As a unit of action, it can be expressed two ways, momentum times
distance or energy times time. Both energy and momentum have mass.
To have a litttle fun with h, I give it different dimensions.
m = mass
a = acceleration
d = distance or length
t = time
madt = h
mat = momentum
mad = energy
The fun part is the quantification of these dimentions:
a = c/sec^2
d = one light second
t = 1 sec
m = 7.372038 x 10^-48 gr.
|
This last number is unfortunately ruled out by experiment, which shows
that the mass of the photon is certainly less than 1E-51 grams for
frequencies of order 1E15 Hz.
| Quote: |
So how do we verify m?
m x f (where f = frequency number) = mass of the photon, m_p. And
m_p times c^2 = h nu = E.
Further, m_p times the frequency of the electron, proton, and neutron
will yield the known mass of each.
I consider that verification that m is the correct mass. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Igor
science forum Guru
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: | here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
pl the Plank figure (just the 6.6 10^-34 figure not its
dimensions )
nz a nonzero figure !!
so the plank constant is never zero nz
and it is
nz (Plank constant ) = pl joule second = pl kg m^2/s^2
times s =
pl kg m^2 /s = nz
so
kg (mass of photon ) = s x nz / (divided by ) pl m ^2
( right ??)
since NON of the right side components is zero
kg (mass of photons) = nonzero !!
QED
Copyright Yehiel Porat 17-05-2006
-------------------
please note:
The above analysis was made possible once I realized that the Plank
Constant
was not just an inseparable physical entity!
If you follow its history and how it was derived
you realize that it is not a case in which first of all that constant
was found and
*only later* it was verified by measurements.
It is exactly the other way round!
i.e. first the results of experimental measurements of Energy versus
the frequency of photons
were plotted and a straight line was found.
the h factor was just the *slope* of that plotted straight line.
ONLY LATER people started to wonder what the meaning of that slope is
and later combined into one physical entity its physical components
(which are actually more basic components like mass velocity (length
seconds )
so if it was assembled it is also legitimate to decompose it into its
components
This of course provided you do it in a legitimate way .
so i found it legitimate to separate its components to the two sides of
an equation
starting from and based on the usual common formula.
(this is just another arrangement of its components )
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
---------------------
|
I can prove that 1 = 2
let a = b
multiply both sides by a:
a^2 = b a
subtract b^2 from both sides:
a^b - b^2 = b a - b^2
factor both sides:
(a+ b) (a - b) = b (a - b)
divide by a - b:
a + b = a
since a = b, I can say:
2 a = a
divide both sides by a and we prove that 1 = 2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Golden Boar
science forum Guru
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 651
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: | so ????
what i syour bottom line?
does the photon has nonzero rest mass or not ???
TIA
Y.Porat
----------------------
|
In order for me to answer this question, you must tell me what you
think mass is. How would you define mass? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Golden Boar
science forum Guru
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 651
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Igor wrote:
| Quote: | Y.Porat wrote:
here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
pl the Plank figure (just the 6.6 10^-34 figure not its
dimensions )
nz a nonzero figure !!
so the plank constant is never zero nz
and it is
nz (Plank constant ) = pl joule second = pl kg m^2/s^2
times s =
pl kg m^2 /s = nz
so
kg (mass of photon ) = s x nz / (divided by ) pl m ^2
( right ??)
since NON of the right side components is zero
kg (mass of photons) = nonzero !!
QED
Copyright Yehiel Porat 17-05-2006
-------------------
please note:
The above analysis was made possible once I realized that the Plank
Constant
was not just an inseparable physical entity!
If you follow its history and how it was derived
you realize that it is not a case in which first of all that constant
was found and
*only later* it was verified by measurements.
It is exactly the other way round!
i.e. first the results of experimental measurements of Energy versus
the frequency of photons
were plotted and a straight line was found.
the h factor was just the *slope* of that plotted straight line.
ONLY LATER people started to wonder what the meaning of that slope is
and later combined into one physical entity its physical components
(which are actually more basic components like mass velocity (length
seconds )
so if it was assembled it is also legitimate to decompose it into its
components
This of course provided you do it in a legitimate way .
so i found it legitimate to separate its components to the two sides of
an equation
starting from and based on the usual common formula.
(this is just another arrangement of its components )
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
---------------------
I can prove that 1 = 2
let a = b
multiply both sides by a:
a^2 = b a
subtract b^2 from both sides:
a^b - b^2 = b a - b^2
factor both sides:
(a+ b) (a - b) = b (a - b)
divide by a - b:
a + b = a
since a = b, I can say:
2 a = a
divide both sides by a and we prove that 1 = 2
|
Well since a-b = 0, all you are doing is proving that division by zero
is undefined. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Igor
science forum Guru
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
Golden Boar wrote:
| Quote: | Igor wrote:
Y.Porat wrote:
here is how i derived my above conclusion:
The formula E=hf is experimentally validated and found Vaid
for the photon case right??
Now since we have an endless cases of which E and f are nonzero
than h the Planck constant is nonzero
yet that constant is not just a figure it has some physical components
and dimensions
so lets see how it is composed of :
lets use the following abbreviations :
km for mass (rest mass)
m - Meter
s - seconds
pl the Plank figure (just the 6.6 10^-34 figure not its
dimensions )
nz a nonzero figure !!
so the plank constant is never zero nz
and it is
nz (Plank constant ) = pl joule second = pl kg m^2/s^2
times s =
pl kg m^2 /s = nz
so
kg (mass of photon ) = s x nz / (divided by ) pl m ^2
( right ??)
since NON of the right side components is zero
kg (mass of photons) = nonzero !!
QED
Copyright Yehiel Porat 17-05-2006
-------------------
please note:
The above analysis was made possible once I realized that the Plank
Constant
was not just an inseparable physical entity!
If you follow its history and how it was derived
you realize that it is not a case in which first of all that constant
was found and
*only later* it was verified by measurements.
It is exactly the other way round!
i.e. first the results of experimental measurements of Energy versus
the frequency of photons
were plotted and a straight line was found.
the h factor was just the *slope* of that plotted straight line.
ONLY LATER people started to wonder what the meaning of that slope is
and later combined into one physical entity its physical components
(which are actually more basic components like mass velocity (length
seconds )
so if it was assembled it is also legitimate to decompose it into its
components
This of course provided you do it in a legitimate way .
so i found it legitimate to separate its components to the two sides of
an equation
starting from and based on the usual common formula.
(this is just another arrangement of its components )
and once i combined the fact that the h factor is nonzero
with the new insight (above) i reached the above unprecedented and
extremely important
result.
TIA
Y.Porat
---------------------
I can prove that 1 = 2
let a = b
multiply both sides by a:
a^2 = b a
subtract b^2 from both sides:
a^b - b^2 = b a - b^2
factor both sides:
(a+ b) (a - b) = b (a - b)
divide by a - b:
a + b = a
since a = b, I can say:
2 a = a
divide both sides by a and we prove that 1 = 2
Well since a-b = 0, all you are doing is proving that division by zero
is undefined.
|
Very good! The OP's proof is just as bogus. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
|
| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:27 am Post subject:
Re: An unprecedents prove the the photon has a nonzer *rest mass* !
|
|
|
your example it is very nice but--
not relevant !!
in my above analysics there is not
**plus or minus sighn!! **it is all multiplications.
ATB
Y.Porat
---------------- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Google
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Forum index
»
Science and Technology
»
Physics
»
Particle
