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John Turmel
science forum Guru
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 424
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject:
TURMEL: Charles Holt Carroll (1799-1890) wrong too
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JCT: Levi suggests another waste of time:
| Quote: | From: "Levi Philos" leviphilos@blackfoot.net
Date: Sun May 14, 2006 8:06am(PDT)
Subject: The Organization of Debt into Currency
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Organization of Debt into Currency and Other Papers
by Charles Holt Carroll (1799-1890)
Published in 1964 by William Volker Fund and simultaneously
in Canada by D. Van Nostrand Company (Canada), Ltd.
WilliamVolkerFund: From Murray Rothbard's History of
Economic Thought:
JCT: A believer in Shift A inflation: people have too much
money that's chasing the goods they produce.
WVF: "One of the most unusual, and most advanced, of the
American admirers of Frederic Bastiat was the Boston
merchant Charles Holt Carroll (1799=97 1890). A staunch
adherent of free trade and laissez-faire, Carroll, in
articles in mercantile and financial magazines from 1855
until 1879, concentrated on questions of money and banking.
In essence, Charles Carroll was the last Jacksonian,
continuing to argue the ultra-hard money cause long past the
tremendous setback it received during the Civil War, when
greenbackism and the national banking act necessarily led
sound money men to concentrate on sheer return to the gold
standard.
JCT: Lincoln Greenbacks were Treasury notes. From
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombank.htm
Our forebear's generations called it work-bee on a date,
Where men could pay their taxes with some service to the state.
They built the roads that carve the land, the bridges over blue,
To those who said they needed gold, they proved it wasn't true.
Now look at how it works today, let's get it understood,
Replacing wooden tallies now is paper pressed of wood.
Two notes used in America can clearly show the way,
Both legal tender now down south. They can be spent today:
"United States Note" issued by the nation's Treasury,
And "Federal Reserve Note" which is banker's currency.
Their fronts are very similar except the name they state,
Their backs are very different, it means another plate.
The Treasury provided notes for federal expense,
And taxed them back to balance books with numbers that made sense.
In 1913, other plates were given to the banks,
Creation of the money. They gave politicians thanks.
The Government had given banks permission to create,
A batch of brand new money to be lent at interest rate.
The Government then borrowed from them and at their request,
The Congress passed the Income Tax to pay them interest.
One Congressman objected, Louis T. McFadden, loud,
"The greatest crime in history," he said with head unbowed.
Ten dollars out, eleven back, it often takes a while,
But after years, the end result's a melancholy style.
The money from the Treasury, its use did almost cease,
To pay the interest to banks, the taxes did increase.
And when we ask "The Treasury, why is it never used?"
In answer, we get silence and an attitude bemused.
So to this day the bulk of the American supply,
Is borrowed from the banks at rates that make debts multiply.
All Governments do service debt by taxing you and me,
Instead of letting Treasury create it interest free.
I see no reason for a tax to pay them interest,
When use of plates by Treasury would lower taxes best.
The money from the Treasury was used down south before.
The "Greenbacks" used by Lincoln paid to win the Civil War.
The "Continentals" did their job until King George did
state:
"There'll be no use of your own plates, for gold you'll have to wait."
Though we've been told that their revolt was over tax for tea,
Ben Franklin said "The war's because they took our currency."
WVF: Moreover, Carroll was not content to advocate 100 per
cent banking;
JCT: Since a LETS 1/s timecurrency is a zero reserve banking
system, Carroll wasn't content to advocate a completely
backward solution.
WVF: he perceptively and consistently urged 100 per cent
banking for demand deposits as well as notes.
JCT: Most people aren't sure how the "reserve ratio" causes
the "multiplier" effect. It's explained in steps from the
tap to the drain in the only advanced engineering analysis
of the banking system ever done:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm
In a nutshell, a 0% reserve banking system operates like a
new poker chips issued as as new m*c^2 (matter) or P*t
(human) energy is pledged as collateral for the tokens.
A 10% reserve system operates the same way but with a safety
deposit section where, for every $100 deposited to the
safety reserve, the bank can issue 90 new chips.
A 100% reserve token system operates like a piggy bank with
no new chips issued at all. Pretty stupid, right, to link
your rate of production to your rate of saving the tokens?
That's reserve banking. LETS zero-reserve banking issues
chips based on collateral independent of what is saved. So
we can see Levi's professor has everything double backward.
WVF: Carroll, indeed, was particularly clear in
demonstrating that bank demand deposits mainly arise from
the extension of loans by the banks. He also pointed out the
fallacy of the Smithian 'real bills' justification for
fractional-reserve banking.
JCT: So he would hate zero reserve banking. How dare I issue
a token based only the collateral to a guy who thinks we
need a piggy bank deposit first.
WVF: Further, more, Carroll realized that central banking,
epitomized by the Bank of England, allows far more room for
the expansion of fractional reserve and "fictitious" money
than would a system of free banking.
JCT: What's a "fictitious IOU?" I don't know of any money
that I cannot use to pay taxes in that jurisdiction. No such
thing as "fictitious money."
WVF: But in addition, Carroll went beyond most hard-money
advocates by calling for the elimination of such potentially
dangerous currency names as "the dollar" (which give the
illusion that these units are goods-in-themselves), and
their replacement as the currency unit by regular, ordinary-
language definitions of weight in gold, e.g. in numbers of
toy ounces.
JCT: But weighing time's too hard.
WVF: For international currencies, that is, for currencies
not redeemable in a common metal, Carroll worked out the
essence of the purchasing-power-parity theory for the
underlying determination of exchange rates on the world
market."
JCT: Who'd have thought a 1-Hour bill from Canada would need
a "purchasing power parity" to be worth an hour in
Australia.
WVF: Entire text in PDF
Table of Contents
Introduction by Edward C. Simmons (p.v)
1. The Currency and the Tariff (p. 1)
2. The Gold of California and Paper Money (p. 15)
3. Change of the Banking Principle (p. 36)
4. Money and Banking (p. 49)
5. The Export of Gold (p. 57)
6. Specie Prices and Results (p. 65)
7. Interest and Cheap Currency (p. 74)
8. Organization of Debt into Currency (p. 86)
9. The Banking and Credit Systems, I (p. 95)
10. The Banking and Credit Systems, II (p. 110)
11. On the Nature of Commercial Value (p. 122)
12. New Views of the Currency Question, I (p. 129)
13. New Views of the Currency Question, II (p. 136)
14. Bankruptcy in the Currency (p. 151)
15. Attributes of Money (p. 176)
16. Congressional Movement in the Currency Question (p. 196)
17. Mr. Lowell vs. Mr. Hooper on Banking and Currency(p.202)
18. Financial Heresies (p. 219)
JCT: From a guy who's got everything backwards, he's
probably badmouthing the real solution: eg: being in favor
of 100% when 0% is the answer. Har har har har.
WVF: 19. Currency of the United States (p. 226)
20. Financial Economy (p. 242)
21. The Monetary Unit and Financial Economy (p. 250)
22. Congress and the Currency (p. 265)
23. National Finance with Legal Tender (p. 275)
24. Of the Balance of Trade (p. 290)
25. Price With and Without Value (p. 299)
26. On the Tariff and the Principle of Taxation (p. 311)
27. The Currency Question in the Commercial Convention in
Boston (p.321)
28. Specie Payments (p. 340)
29. Bankruptcy and Insolvency (p. 349)
30. The Financial Question (p. 360)
31. The Currency Theories of the Day (p. 371)
JCT: Bet he doesn't cover the sociable credits movement.
WVF: 32. Tariff and Special Taxation (p. 382)
33. Of the Discount Deposit (p. 392)
34. The Natural Sum of the Nation's Money (p. 402)
35. Of the Balance of Trade and the Course of Exchange (p. 412)
36. Of the True and False in Money and Banking (p. 420)
JCT: From a writer who's an expert on being backward.
WVF: The full version as a pdf file is 1.86 megabytes and
462 pages. http://www.mises.org/etexts/currency.pdf
JCT: Anyone want to go waste time with
Levi studying 1.86 megs of bank system expertise?
LeviPhilos: Here is a long and detailed review of the book:
http://www.mises.org/story/2114
This review by Robert Blumen will appear in a search at many
locations. "There can be nothing more unreal in its
pretensions than debt currency itself." =97 Charles Holt
Carroll (1860)
FYI for what it is worth from Levi Philos
JCT: 100% backward is worth less than nothing.
| Quote: | From: "Levi Philos" leviphilos@blackfoot.net
Date: Sun May 14, 2006 8:18am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Organization of Debt into Currency
|
LP: Interesting piece and doubly interesting to hard money
advocates. Consider however, these musings:
The increase of true value is always accompanied by the
expenditure of human effort in the form of intellectual and
physical labor.
JCT: Please define the units of expenditure of human effort.
LP: You can borrow an ounce of gold or one hundred ounces of
gold and promise to repay 5% more at the end of the year.
But you cannot borrow an hour, nor a minute, nor a second.
JCT: Gee, that's exactly what all social time currencies
keep track of! And Levi thinks it can't be done. Of course,
use the word "owe" and it's easy to "owe" an hour, or a
minute, or a second. So it it can be "owed," it certainly
must be "borrowed." Or some other function that results in
the same interest-free debt.
LP: No man or woman has ever been born who can go back to
yesterday and perform labor that was left undone.
JCT: So I can't owe you a day's help? Fascinating to watch
someone who doesn't think we can owe time. Of course, he's a
believer in Shift A inflation and 100% piggy banking writing
in the "casino banking" International Journal for Community
Currencies that are all based on keeping track of who owes
time to whom; who owes who time, with interest-free sociable
credits.
LP: Nor has any man or woman ever been born who can perform
work tomorrow
JCT: I have to stop at this point and wonder what kind of
construct Levi will have dreamed up to prevent him from
performing work tomorrow...
LP: such that should we bed with unfinished tasks and wake
the morrow we find said tasks finished.
JCT: Okay, I get it. No one can perform tomorrow's work
today. Very less-than-profound non-useful point.
LP: We cannot borrow tomorrow and the day after tomorrow
JCT: Again, I have to pause to wonder what kind of construct
he'll come up with so that he can't borrow in the future...
LP: and spend today, tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow
all simultaneously/concurrently today.
JCT: What else to expect from a guy who got the inflation
shift backwards, the reserve ratio backwards, so why not
backwards on today versus tomorrow. I think.
LP: The concepts of capital accounts derived from acquiring
hoards of silver and gold and holding said hoards in vault
available for usage when needed - these concepts collapse
when time is symbolically represented by a symbol and used
as money.
JCT: Wow. He got something right. Yellow and silver rock
aren't needed when time is symbolically represented by a
symbol and used as money.
LP: The correct demurrage rate on a time symbol is 100%
every day. If the day is not used, the value is forever
lost.
JCT: Okay, 100% backwards again. Har har har har. Your money
is worthless tomorrow because it's not today. Har har har
har.
LP: Well, damn! That won't work either!
JCT: Har har har har. No kidding. Thanks for having taken
the podium and enlightened us with your 180 degrees
backwards opinions.
LP: All we have left are viable compromises. Suggestions
accepted. Levi Philos
JCT: Give up sharing your opinions in the social currency
banking systems engineering design room until you have
mastered the blueprints. Until then, you'll just continue to
be fodder for my jokes. |
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w_b_ryan@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject:
John Turmel drinks his own piss.
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"By the way, he thinks he's shaming me while I think
he's helping spread a message many people will
eventually thank me for. I couldn't ask for a better
plug to bring this natural miraculous healer to
everyone's attention, even if from a demented
lunatic. I'm so not ashamed that I even pee a mug
full and chug it in the DVD put out last year at
http://www.turmelmovie.com so it's not as if I'm not
happy to get the message out."
John "Piss Boy" Turmel |
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