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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:32 am Post subject:
The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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1
What is the experimental evidence (repeat) *experimental evidence*-
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
2
What is the experimental prove (repeat) *experimental prove*
- (as commonly is concidered to be experimental prove)--
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
TIA
Y.Porat
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Zigoteau
science forum addict
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:24 am Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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Hi, Yehiel,
| Quote: | 1
What is the experimental evidence (repeat) *experimental evidence*-
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
2
What is the experimental prove (repeat) *experimental prove*
- (as commonly is concidered to be experimental prove)--
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
|
You are truly amazing, and to be deeply venerated.
Right, here's the proof:
1. Choose a nice sunny day when the humidity is low
2. Take bug rake out of pocket with right hand.
3. Rub on snot-rag held in left hand (as long as S.R. has not been used
too much).
4. Position bug rake over small piece of paper.
Observation: Small piece of paper is attracted to the comb.
Conclusion: Courtesy of the electromagnetic field aka photons.
Voilą!
Cheers,
Zigoteau. |
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:19 am Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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you are realy great and aserious scintist
now whatr will happen with your experiment
during night and not a suny day??
2 who told you that em field is done by photons
dont you realise that this is exactly thei ssue
that is challenged just now??
ps Zigoteau if you cant help , at least dont disturb
that is an oat of scintists sinsce a few thousands years ago
Y.P
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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who told you that
an EM **wave * is a magnetic* or electric ** field*
or creating any attraction force ??
Y.Porat
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Zigoteau
science forum addict
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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Hi, Yehiel,
| Quote: | 2 who told you that em field is done by photons
dont you realise that this is exactly thei ssue
that is challenged just now??
|
The word 'photon' was coined in the early 20th century to take into
account Einstein's explanation of the photoelectric effect and Davisson
and Germer's demonstration of the wave nature of the electron. So the
photon is the particle of light, by definition.
I grant you that Maxwell's initial identification of light as an
electromagnetic wave was not logically watertight. There might have
been some other field which travels at the speed of light. In fact
neutrinos travel at essentially the speed of light, so perhaps EM
radiation might have been and light might have corresponded to some
other field. The frequency of light is in the range 400-700 THz, and
Hertz's EM waves had a maximum freqency of 10 Hz. Even today, the
fastest electronics available can only generate signals at 1 THz or so,
so that visible light cannot be generated by directly exciting the EM
field with a controlled, coherent signal.
We know a lot about atomic structure. Electrons interact with light,
and there is reasonably good agreement between the measured strength of
interaction of matter with light and the calculated strength of
interaction with EM radiation. Even back-of-the-envelope calculations
of absorption cross-sections of e.g. aromatic organic molecules are in
better than order-of-magnitude agreement.
Light-emitting diodes emit light. The emission comes from electron-hole
pairs, and can be very efficient.
I've done some work on surface plasmons, which are guided modes for
visible light. The values for plasmons on silver are in good agreement
with the Drude model of metals, which is based on the known interaction
of the electrons with the electromagnetic field.
The most convincing proof is the generation of visible light in
synchrotrons by the acceleration of electrons, with an intensity in
good agreement with calculations from Maxwell's equations.
On the subject of synchrotrons, I hear that Israel, the Palestinian
Authority, Iran, Jordan, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Greece, and Turkey,
are getting together to build one in Jordan. That's a nice contrast to
the usual sort of news from the region.
Cheers,
Zigoteau. |
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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yes goo news
but still
all the 'evidence that you quoted above
dpes not prove that photons *make the electric or megmetic field*
indeed there is a tight connection between them
but a tight connection is not a common physical identity!!
if you want it methaphorically
just a ofhand example:
there is a tight connection between thr food that we eat and (excuse
me)
exauset out
and the structure of our body and anathomy
yet that food in its all 'incarnations' is not the human body
nor its methabolism nore the blood circulation system
not our nerval system etc etc etc
hope you got the rough example!!
TIA
Y.Porat
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PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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Y.Porat wrote:
| Quote: | 1
What is the experimental evidence (repeat) *experimental evidence*-
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
2
What is the experimental prove (repeat) *experimental prove*
- (as commonly is concidered to be experimental prove)--
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------
|
I don't know of any direct evidence.
What we *do* know is the following:
1. That the electromagnetic interaction has both repulsive and
attractive effects between charged objects.
2. That the electromagnetic interaction is responsible for a wide
spectrum of propagating signals (radiation), some of which is what we
associate with light.
3. That electromagnetic radiation sometimes has behavior that we
associate with particles, not waves, which is the reason why we have
given the name photons to the object with both kinds of behavior.
4. That a theory that treats the electromagnetic interaction as being
mediated by the exchange of photons between charged particles, is
highly quantitatively successful at predicting the behavior of those
charged particles, *without* the need for another kind of exchanged
particle. This theory contains terms that include both attractive and
repulsive components -- if they did not, they would not agree with
experimental results.
I do not know of a single case, however, of a scattering experiment
where the scattering is demonstrated to be an attraction and not a
repulsion, and the mediator was a tagged photon.
PD |
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Gregory L. Hansen
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 771
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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In article <1118817125.437968.135830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
| Quote: |
1
What is the experimental evidence (repeat) *experimental evidence*-
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
2
What is the experimental prove (repeat) *experimental prove*
- (as commonly is concidered to be experimental prove)--
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------
|
"The photon" is not an attractive force producer. "The field" is, and
"photons" are a representation of the field. Photons exist because that
is the description given to the field in quantum mechanics. The photon
isn't a little billiard ball that exerts a recoil force-- it's a momentum
eigenstate of the field.
So the question isn't about photons, it's about the validity of the
quantum theory of electromagnetism. For evidence, wherever the classical
theory fails but the quantum theory succeeds evidence may be found.
--
"Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of
Congress... But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain |
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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PD wrote:
| Quote: | Y.Porat wrote:
1
What is the experimental evidence (repeat) *experimental evidence*-
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
2
What is the experimental prove (repeat) *experimental prove*
- (as commonly is concidered to be experimental prove)--
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------
I don't know of any direct evidence.
|
that for itself is some advance!!
too many people dont have even that recognition.
--------
| Quote: |
What we *do* know is the following:
1. That the electromagnetic interaction has both repulsive and
attractive effects between charged objects.
|
so waht?? who was taliking about the electromagnetic
we were talking about photons!!
that is not the same!!
---
| Quote: | 2. That the electromagnetic interaction is responsible for a wide
spectrum of propagating signals (radiation), some of which is what we
associate with light.
|
so ??
----
| Quote: | 3. That electromagnetic radiation sometimes has behavior that we
associate with particles, not waves, which is the reason why we have
given the name photons to the object with both kinds of behavior.
|
em wave (radiation) does not make attraction.
---
| Quote: | 4. That a theory that treats the electromagnetic interaction as being
mediated by the exchange of photons between charged particles, is
highly quantitatively successful at predicting the behavior of those
charged particles, *without* the need for another kind of exchanged
-- |
there i sonly a mathematical solusion a partial solusion
please show us where is the solusion is using
the photons and not say
some whiches on a broomstick!!
in more simple words:
it saies that there is 'something that is mediating'
but sayed nothing about what that something is !!
thaat something in the solusion is an *unknown***
there is nothing there that defines and identifies it
as a photon
these are just *acompanig words (repeat) words
to the methtmatical solusion not any of the substance
of the photon (that moves naturally in a stright line)
it could be many other things (or words)
------------
| Quote: | particle. This theory contains terms that include both attractive and
repulsive components -- if they did not, they would not agree with
experimental results.
|
very nice but
*what are those physical components*??"
| Quote: |
I do not know of a single case, however, of a scattering experiment
where the scattering is demonstrated to be an attraction and not a
repulsion,
-- |
??????
and the mediator was a tagged photon.
pleae elaborate
how do they 'tag' th e photon
how do they folow it to do something
and what is that something that it does ??
TIA
Y.Porat
ps the questions are for everybody that can naswer
a reasonable answer.
--------------------------
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Gregory L. Hansen
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 771
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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In article <1118987519.266780.281650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
| Quote: |
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <1118817125.437968.135830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
1
What is the experimental evidence (repeat) *experimental evidence*-
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
2
What is the experimental prove (repeat) *experimental prove*
- (as commonly is concidered to be experimental prove)--
that the photon is an attraction force producer?
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------
"The photon" is not an attractive force producer.
untill that point i agree with you (
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All right.
| Quote: |
"The field" is, and
and even now i agree with you!!
|
Joy.
| Quote: |
"photons" are a representation of the field.
here it is that i dont agree with you!!
|
Then educate yourself. Greiner's "Field Quantization" gives the clearest
development that I've seen.
| Quote: | that is exactly the question on challenge!!!
if you will say the photon is a *product of the field*
|
They are not a product of the field. They're a mathematical expression of
the field. The field itself is different in quantum mechanics than in
classical mechanics, but photons are not much different than a simple
Fourier transform of the field. That is, a field strength versus
position, F(x), is turned into a field strength versus momentum, f(p).
| Quote: | than i wil not have a choice but agree with you
but that still does not make **your point**
it makes my point !!!!
-----------------
Photons exist because that
is the description given to the field in quantum mechanics.
so ??? why not describe it by say:
whiches on broomsticks??!!
|
You can if you like. But I don't know the orthogonality relation for
witches on broomsticks.
| Quote: |
The photon
isn't a little billiard ball that exerts a recoil force--
i am th elast one to say that ....
|
Then what's the problem? Why would you think a photon shouldn't cause an
attractive force? Does it seem perfectly sensible to you that photons
could cause repulsive forces?
| Quote: |
it's a momentum
eigenstate of the field.
while you talke about eigenstates
you left the realm of God (or manture if you like)
and went down to the realm of human artifacts!!!
mor e presisely - mathematicians......
nature i snot responsible for human artifacts
and we will see later that even human like logic -it dies not make
physics sense!!!(ie to asighn it to the photons )
|
Momentum eigenstates tell you about what the field can do to particles in
the real world-- transfer momentum. The effects are obvious and it's easy
to measure, that's why they're used.
| Quote: | ----------
So the question isn't about photons,
please dont tell me what is the question
here it is *me* who put the questions
(and it is time that the little boy crackpot Porat
will shout that
'the emperror is naked'!!
and i will not do it as you like it !!!or not like it
because it will embarase not only you but the whole scintific
comunity!!!
|
As you like.
--
"You're not as dumb as you look. Or sound. Or our best testing
indicates." -- Monty Burns to Homer Simpson |
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Ranando King
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:d8us3r$anj$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
| Quote: | In article <1118987519.266780.281650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
snipped
"The photon" is not an attractive force producer.
untill that point i agree with you (:-)
All right.
"The field" is, and
and even now i agree with you!!
Joy.
"photons" are a representation of the field.
here it is that i dont agree with you!!
Then educate yourself. Greiner's "Field Quantization" gives the clearest
development that I've seen.
that is exactly the question on challenge!!!
if you will say the photon is a *product of the field*
They are not a product of the field. They're a mathematical expression of
the field. The field itself is different in quantum mechanics than in
classical mechanics, but photons are not much different than a simple
Fourier transform of the field. That is, a field strength versus
position, F(x), is turned into a field strength versus momentum, f(p).
snipped |
Question:
Y. Porat poses that a photon is a created by an EM field.
You're stating here that a photon IS an EM field in motion.
So if a photon is a chargeless, massless EM field in motion, does that imply
that the other 3 forces of nature have similar moving fields that can be
disassociated from their source particles? If no, then how can this be the
case with a photon?
I have no problems accepting the notion that a photon is a moment of
momentum caused by a shock wave in an EM field generated by a moving,
charged particle. That makes perfect sense. But to say that a photon is a
moving EM field packet is the same thing as saying that the static EM field
of a given charged particle is merely an array of static photons. Since
photons cannot be static by definition, then something's wrong with either
your notion or my understanding, and I would greatly appreciate a correction
if it's me.
R. |
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PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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Ranando King wrote:
| Quote: | "Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:d8us3r$anj$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <1118987519.266780.281650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
snipped
"The photon" is not an attractive force producer.
untill that point i agree with you (:-)
All right.
"The field" is, and
and even now i agree with you!!
Joy.
"photons" are a representation of the field.
here it is that i dont agree with you!!
Then educate yourself. Greiner's "Field Quantization" gives the clearest
development that I've seen.
that is exactly the question on challenge!!!
if you will say the photon is a *product of the field*
They are not a product of the field. They're a mathematical expression of
the field. The field itself is different in quantum mechanics than in
classical mechanics, but photons are not much different than a simple
Fourier transform of the field. That is, a field strength versus
position, F(x), is turned into a field strength versus momentum, f(p).
snipped
Question:
Y. Porat poses that a photon is a created by an EM field.
You're stating here that a photon IS an EM field in motion.
So if a photon is a chargeless, massless EM field in motion, does that imply
that the other 3 forces of nature have similar moving fields that can be
disassociated from their source particles? If no, then how can this be the
case with a photon?
|
Yes, it does imply that, exactly.
Weak force is mediated by the W+, W-, and Z, which serve exactly the
same role as the photon.
Strong force is mediated by eight varieties of gluons, which serve
exactly the same role as the photon.
(The above have been experimentally verified.)
Gravitational force is *presumed* to be mediated by something that is
probably a spin 2 massless graviton, though a coherent quantum theory
of gravity is not yet in hand.
(This one has not been verified.)
| Quote: |
I have no problems accepting the notion that a photon is a moment of
momentum caused by a shock wave in an EM field generated by a moving,
charged particle. That makes perfect sense. But to say that a photon is a
moving EM field packet is the same thing as saying that the static EM field
of a given charged particle is merely an array of static photons. Since
photons cannot be static by definition, then something's wrong with either
your notion or my understanding, and I would greatly appreciate a correction
if it's me.
|
Static field does not imply static photons. Static field is a ensemble
average of a sea of photons.
PD |
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:03 am Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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PD wrote:
| Quote: | Ranando King wrote:
"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:d8us3r$anj$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <1118987519.266780.281650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
snipped
"The photon" is not an attractive force producer.
untill that point i agree with you (:-)
All right.
"The field" is, and
and even now i agree with you!!
Joy.
"photons" are a representation of the field.
|
not a presentation---- a result!!
presentation is just *your **guess**
----------
| Quote: |
here it is that i dont agree with you!!
Then educate yourself. Greiner's "Field Quantization" gives the clearest
development that I've seen.
that is exactly the question on challenge!!!
if you will say the photon is a *product of the field*
They are not a product of the field. They're a mathematical expression of
the field. The field itself is different in quantum mechanics than in
classical mechanics, but photons are not much different than a simple
Fourier transform of the field. That is, a field strength versus
position, F(x), is turned into a field strength versus momentum, f(p).
snipped
----------------
still does not answer our problem |
----------
| Quote: | Question:
Y. Porat poses that a photon is a created by an EM field.
|
let ad something to my claim:
it is created by the Em field but.....
not *making* the em field !!!
the same that the bullet does not make the rifle!!
------
| Quote: | You're stating here that a photon IS an EM field in motion.
So if a photon is a chargeless, massless EM field in motion, does that imply
that the other 3 forces of nature have similar moving fields that can be
disassociated from their source particles? If no, then how can this be the
case with a photon?
Yes, it does imply that, exactly.
Weak force is mediated by the W+, W-, and Z, which serve exactly the
same role as the photon.
|
very good that you brought the W
because that demnstarights exactly the big fraud!!!
the W is not found experimentally in the weak action envirinment
it is found in a huge accelerator that has nothing to do
with the case that it is alleged to prove.
(nothing to do with the real case)
| Quote: | Strong force is mediated by eight varieties of gluons, which serve
exactly the same role as the photon.
(The above have been experimentally verified.)
Gravitational force is *presumed* to be mediated by something that is
probably a spin 2 massless graviton, though a coherent quantum theory
of gravity is not yet in hand.
(This one has not been verified.)
|
PD an side remark and may be an advice:
please dont lock youself personally and emotionally
on the existing explanations
because once you do it
you get off the rational track
try to be 'objective' and uninvolved personally...
because what you sayed aboveis
parroting
and you realise youself 'this one has not been verified' as you saied
no i can add a prediction of mine:
acording to the existong 'understandings; it will never be verified!!
(because 'there is no coconuts at the north pole')
-------------
| Quote: |
I have no problems accepting the notion that a photon is a moment of
momentum caused by a shock wave in an EM field generated by a moving,
charged particle. That makes perfect sense. But to say that a photon is a
moving EM field packet is the same thing as saying that the static EM field
of a given charged particle is merely an array of static photons. Since
photons cannot be static by definition, then something's wrong with either
your notion or my understanding, and I would greatly appreciate a correction
if it's me.
Static field does not imply static photons. Static field is a ensemble
average of a sea of photons.
|
'sea of photons' eh ....?
dont you see how you start hand waving?
and you forgot to add:
a sea of photons that ...... move naturally in a stright line!!
and 'know how to find their target and never miss the target Eh??
(untill now i knew you as a rational curious and not least..
an honest man!! i sugest that you will go on with those
characteristics of yourse.
-------------
all the best
Y.Porat
----------------
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Gregory L. Hansen
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 771
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:19 am Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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In article <42b34292$1_1@news.vic.com>,
Ranando King <rk@magictouchcorp.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:d8us3r$anj$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <1118987519.266780.281650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:
snipped
"The photon" is not an attractive force producer.
untill that point i agree with you (:-)
All right.
"The field" is, and
and even now i agree with you!!
Joy.
"photons" are a representation of the field.
here it is that i dont agree with you!!
Then educate yourself. Greiner's "Field Quantization" gives the clearest
development that I've seen.
that is exactly the question on challenge!!!
if you will say the photon is a *product of the field*
They are not a product of the field. They're a mathematical expression of
the field. The field itself is different in quantum mechanics than in
classical mechanics, but photons are not much different than a simple
Fourier transform of the field. That is, a field strength versus
position, F(x), is turned into a field strength versus momentum, f(p).
snipped
Question:
Y. Porat poses that a photon is a created by an EM field.
You're stating here that a photon IS an EM field in motion.
So if a photon is a chargeless, massless EM field in motion, does that imply
that the other 3 forces of nature have similar moving fields that can be
disassociated from their source particles? If no, then how can this be the
case with a photon?
|
I'm happy with PD's reply. But the mind-bending realization is that
electrons and other particles aren't so different. An electron is an
excitation of the Dirac field. Quantum field theory is a theory of
fields, hence the name.
| Quote: |
I have no problems accepting the notion that a photon is a moment of
momentum caused by a shock wave in an EM field generated by a moving,
charged particle. That makes perfect sense. But to say that a photon is a
moving EM field packet is the same thing as saying that the static EM field
of a given charged particle is merely an array of static photons. Since
photons cannot be static by definition, then something's wrong with either
your notion or my understanding, and I would greatly appreciate a correction
if it's me.
|
Forget about the quantum theory for a moment, think of classical
electromagnetism. You can Fourier transform the field, and by the
relation p=hf/c express the field as a sum of momentum states. You can
Fourier transform a static field and express it as a sum of momentum
states. I might not have all the signs and constants right, but...
dp/dt = q E(x)
= q \int E(p') exp(ip'x) dp'
If you assume the particle spends a short time in the field you could say
the momentum transfered is
delta p = q * delta t * \int E(p') exp(ip'x) dp'
where the integral says you have to sum the contributions of each momentum
mode of the field. It's really equivalent to the first equation, the
Fourier transform is just another way to express E(x).
When you go quantum, the momentum transfered is not p1 plus p2 plus p3...,
but rather p1 or p2 or p3... and the Fourier transform E(p') relates to
the probability. By expressing the field as momentum states you're not
saying that the field is moving; you're saying what the field can do to a
test particle.
That's being a little loose with the math. After all, Schroedinger's
equation is in terms of energy. But I'm looking at the physical concept
here.
--
"Yes, I revere you much, honored ones, and wish to fart in response." --
Aristophanes, Clouds |
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:43 am Post subject:
Re: The Photon as an attraction force carrier ??
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you are looking at the physical concept here
thats very nice
yet why di dyou have to wait so long for me to drive you look for it??
now the fact is you did nothing in finding the *physical concept*
actually you did very well with obfuscating the threads issue!!!
your answer tells us nothing to prove that electrric fields
are done (listen carefully) *by photons*
so your anser was worse than not answering anything
because it is confuscation
so i expect from you to be honest and to admit that
there is no experiemntal evidence to prove
that
photons are 'the field makers'
nor experimental prove that photons are attraction force agents!!
all the best
Y.Porat
ps i suggest again that you will avoid those rude quotes as the
Aristophanes one
because what *you* did untill now - was farting
you are not dealing with idiots that will buy your smatguyness.
and with that behaviour you are actually causing damage to the cause of
scince!.
because of the illusion that you make to thing that you 'closed the
issue satisfactory
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