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Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries
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nicksanspam@ece.villanova
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Quote:
Are you so stupid that you are unfamiliar with multi-graded oils?
Well known established fact that cold weather starts require more
starter energy.

You are changing the subject.

Nick
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nicksanspam@ece.villanova
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Quote:
Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? :-)

Nick
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Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On 5 Jun 2006 04:58:17 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu Gave us:

Quote:
repatch <repatch42@yahoo.com> wrote:

... consider that by doing this the pair of pliers weld themselves onto
the connections, a car battery pumping hundreds if not thousands of amps
through a pair of pliers uncontrolled would cause me to run.

As the battery temp rose 7 F? :-)


Which is NOT enough to make ANY difference in the CCA capacity of
the battery.

It is also a bogus claim. An IR camera pointed at such a battery
would see no change in a five second dead short pliers application at
any point other than the pliers themselves.

A ten second dead short.. not much more, if any.

After that, we are talking about depleting the battery beyond any
gains offered by warming the damned thing.

Again... D'oh!
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Floyd L. Davidson
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
Quote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? Smile

No it will not. Stop making up straw men to beat up on.

There *will* be sparks. There *will* be excessive heat from the
current through the tool used to short the battery.

Either of those can cause hydrogen gas to explode. Either can
also cause gasoline, oil, or other flamable material in the
engine compartment to catch fire.

These are not common experiences, but they *do* happen and can
be extremely harmful to individuals close by.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
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Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On 5 Jun 2006 05:01:31 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu Gave us:

Quote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Are you so stupid that you are unfamiliar with multi-graded oils?
Well known established fact that cold weather starts require more
starter energy.

You are changing the subject.

Nope. A bearing is a bearing. A cold bearing is a cold bearing.

It IS established fact that cold "wet" style bearings are harder to
move.

Do you deny this fact? If so, you need to go back to school, though
I would (and do) doubt that you have any mechanical engineering under
your belt to begin with.
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Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On 5 Jun 2006 05:03:02 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu Gave us:

Quote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? :-)


What? The battery I am familiar with exploding, the one I mentioned,
was NOT in a -40 F setting, dumbass.
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Floyd L. Davidson
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:
Quote:
A ten second dead short.. not much more, if any.

After that, we are talking about depleting the battery beyond any
gains offered by warming the damned thing.

Depleting the battery Hell! We are the talking about depleting the
pliers and the person holding them... ;-)

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
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Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:52:04 -0800, floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L.
Davidson) Gave us:

Quote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:
A ten second dead short.. not much more, if any.

After that, we are talking about depleting the battery beyond any
gains offered by warming the damned thing.

Depleting the battery Hell! We are the talking about depleting the
pliers and the person holding them... Wink

Hehehehe... I just posted in abse a post to the frogtard that would
apply to some of the folks in this thread as well.

It is from our illustrious governator... :-]

Depleting a Usenet poster (cold or hot) is a hard thing to do, even
with the best conductors placed across their terminals. ;-]

And corpses are hard to warm up in this manner as well...

Where's a good, well placed lightning strike at when you need one?
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nicksanspam@ece.villanova
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote:
Quote:
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? :-)

No it will not. Stop making up straw men to beat up on.

Not my straw man. Keep up! I've been doubting that a battery's internal
energy can cause an explosion or meltdown if it has an internal short.

Nick
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Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On 5 Jun 2006 06:41:32 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu Gave us:

Quote:
Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote:
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? :-)

No it will not. Stop making up straw men to beat up on.

Not my straw man. Keep up! I've been doubting that a battery's internal
energy can cause an explosion or meltdown if it has an internal short.


You keep up, dipshit. We are talking about EXTERNAL shorting.
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nicksanspam@ece.villanova
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Quote:
Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? :-)

No it will not. Stop making up straw men to beat up on.

Not my straw man. Keep up! I've been doubting that a battery's internal
energy can cause an explosion or meltdown if it has an internal short.

You keep up, dipshit. We are talking about EXTERNAL shorting.

Even worse, for attempting to cause an explosion.

Nick

When a man is wrong and he will not admit it, he almost always
becomes angry.
--Disraeli
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Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On 5 Jun 2006 08:09:27 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu Gave us:

Quote:
Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Dead shorting a -40 battery or even a zero F battery is NOT going to
"warm it" enough to make a subsequent short pass more current.

But it will still explode from its internal energy, right? :-)

No it will not. Stop making up straw men to beat up on.

Not my straw man. Keep up! I've been doubting that a battery's internal
energy can cause an explosion or meltdown if it has an internal short.

You keep up, dipshit. We are talking about EXTERNAL shorting.

Even worse, for attempting to cause an explosion.


Talk about not keeping up. Have you even read this thread?
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no one that you know
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

Hey turd tampper when did I ever say that started was stalled while holding
the key?
I hold the key untill it starts to the boarder line of starter abuse untill
the engine fires and starts.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote:

Quote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 04:19:55 GMT, no one that you know
nooneshome@shaw.ca> Gave us:

Trus me when it's minus forty it takes more than a few seconds to cook a
starter.........but thank you for your concern

Look, you top posting Usenet RETARD!

Within a few hundred milliseconds of applying current, the wires
involved in your scenario would not be caring ANYTHING at all about
the outside temperature.

But thanks for trying to squirm away from reality.

It is a well established FACT that non rotating starter motors under
power can catastrophically fry rather quickly.

Put THAT in your keyhole and crank it, you top posting dipshit.
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repatch
science forum beginner


Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:55:26 +0000, Don Klipstein wrote:

Quote:
In article <pan.2006.06.05.05.15.53.277981@yahoo.com>, repatch wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 04:39:26 +0000, Don Klipstein wrote:

In article <pan.2006.06.04.22.07.01.440273@yahoo.com>, repatch wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 09:18:24 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:


Shorting them actually uses up what charge is available and
doesn't
warm the battery enough to make it crank harder.

It is total myth.

Untrue. Take a look at some capacity vs temp curves. Warming a
fully-charged cold battery can increase the available capacity,
releasing more than the energy used to warm it.


Wrong. Read what he wrote: "doesn't warm the battery enough". That
is true. Long before you get the battery warmer, you make it
deader!

Besides, shorting a battery to warm it is about the stupidest thing
I've ever heard of for other reasons, not the least of which is the
potential for an explosion that will make you really really really
ugly.

If it works, don't knock it. The attitude, "If I can't explain it, I
can't believe it" is more than a bit silly, don't you think?

I agree, and I'm not going to comment on whether it works or not.

That said, I would NEVER do such a thing. It's dangerous for numerous
reasons (big sparks under a hood are never good, grease can burn quite
easily).

I hope you would have found a better example...

In my personal experience? No. I have on the other hand HAD a fire under
the hood due to the grease/residue on the engine catching. Fortunately
there wasn't much and it burned itself out very quickly, but had there
been more it would have been a very bad day for me.

It doesn't matter if my example isn't "good enough", big sparks under the
hood of a car are NEVER a good idea. The possibility of a small gasoline
leak would be reason enough to never attempt such a thing.

Heck, consider that by doing this the pair of pliers weld themselves onto
the connections, a car battery pumping hundreds if not thousands of amps
through a pair of pliers uncontrolled would cause me to run.

And with that much current available, I would expect a car to start
before its driver resorts to the desperation tactics under debate here!

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Not true, on bigger or higher compression engines it doesn't take the
battery to be that low on capacity to result in a no start. This is
especially true since car manufacturers have REALLY been skimping on CCA
ratings these days.

Even a battery at only 20% charge is scary when short circuited. I don't
think the general public realizes how bad things can get with batteries if
you don't treat them right.

TTYL
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Peter Dettmann
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for a UPS Design That Doesn't Overheat Batteries Reply with quote

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:47:49 GMT, Roy L. Fuchs
<roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:54:39 +1000, Peter Dettmann
peter@aardvark.net.au> Gave us:

On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 06:47:43 GMT, Roy L. Fuchs
roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 14:25:53 +1000, Peter Dettmann
peter@aardvark.net.au> Gave us:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0700, "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam
wrote:

"Peter Dettmann" <peter@aardvark.net.au> wrote in message
news:k7c2829tcjdt2nbsmiaghkmjc982bb477c@4ax.com...
You also have probelms keeping your posts just to appropriate news
groups. SPAM is what is is.

I rarely cross post this widely, but for this thread there was not a single
newsgroup that best covered UPS. Which specific newsgroups do you think
this subject didn't belong in, and why?

sci.engr.electrical.sys-protection is the most obvious one as the
question seems not to be a question related to power line system
protection.

Peter Dettmann

What a wuss. Get over it, boy.

I can handle it, but point out the ongoing bad manners. Your comments
seem not to be relevant nor assist in the matter.

Peter Dettmann


Again... GET OVER IT, you STUPID FUCKTARD!

Your continued bad manners and lack of assistance speak for
themselves. Do not presume to consider yourself authorative.

Peter Dettmann
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