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jstevh@msn.com
science forum Guru
Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 951
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 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:19 am Post subject:
JSH: But what is truth?
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I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
Here we are thousands of years into human civilization, and I'd read
these texts talking about how it wasn't really settled what
mathematical proof was, and after some years, I had something.
And that something became the definition which I like to give:
A mathematical proof begins with a truth and proceeds by logical steps
to a conclusion which then must be true.
And when you write something like that and think about thousands of
years of human history, you kind of wonder a bit, but it's like, hey,
that's just something I'm saying, and I know who I am, and I'm just
some guy.
But I'm some guy who wrote the definition of mathematical proof. The
functional definition I like to call it.
Ok, so, I got a functional definition. Big deal. What's THE
definition of mathematical proof.
Oh, wow, that's easy:
A mathematical proof is a mathematical argument that begins with a
truth and proceeds by logical steps to a conclusion which then must be
true.
Alright! Now that's better. I'm some guy who typed some words and
they sound good to me and I've done this thing that has taken over ten
thousand years to get done. I've defined mathematical proof.
But what is truth?
Now I can define truth, and it's not something to me that seems really
hard, but there's sense of a disconnect, like, it's just not something
I should do.
How can some guy define--truth?
So I put it up as just a delusion on my part that I could do such a
thing, and leave it, for a while to individuals, philosophers and those
who think they are up to the task, to understand, what is, when you
think about it, the most important thing, if you can call it that, that
there is.
If you know truth, then you know so much about our world. You can see
what is really happening versus what people tell you is happening.
To other people you can seem prescient.
You can seem like someone from another world just because you know this
thing, called truth.
So then, if the basis of the definition of mathematical proof--the
definition that waited over ten thousand years for me to give it--is
this thing called truth, which I have not defined, then did I do
anything?
Or maybe you think others have defined truth?
I can assure you that if you understood truth then you would
understand.
James Harris |
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Gene Ward Smith
science forum Guru
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:28 am Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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jst...@msn.com wrote:
| Quote: | Or maybe you think others have defined truth?
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"P is true" iff P, according to Tarski. |
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Bob Terwilliger
science forum addict
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:36 am Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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jstevh@msn.com wrote:
| Quote: | I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
Here we are thousands of years into human civilization, and I'd read
these texts talking about how it wasn't really settled what
mathematical proof was, and after some years, I had something.
And that something became the definition which I like to give:
A mathematical proof begins with a truth and proceeds by logical steps
to a conclusion which then must be true.
And when you write something like that and think about thousands of
years of human history, you kind of wonder a bit, but it's like, hey,
that's just something I'm saying, and I know who I am, and I'm just
some guy.
But I'm some guy who wrote the definition of mathematical proof. The
functional definition I like to call it.
Ok, so, I got a functional definition. Big deal. What's THE
definition of mathematical proof.
Oh, wow, that's easy:
A mathematical proof is a mathematical argument that begins with a
truth and proceeds by logical steps to a conclusion which then must be
true.
Alright! Now that's better. I'm some guy who typed some words and
they sound good to me and I've done this thing that has taken over ten
thousand years to get done. I've defined mathematical proof.
But what is truth?
Now I can define truth, and it's not something to me that seems really
hard, but there's sense of a disconnect, like, it's just not something
I should do.
How can some guy define--truth?
So I put it up as just a delusion on my part that I could do such a
thing, and leave it, for a while to individuals, philosophers and those
who think they are up to the task, to understand, what is, when you
think about it, the most important thing, if you can call it that, that
there is.
If you know truth, then you know so much about our world. You can see
what is really happening versus what people tell you is happening.
To other people you can seem prescient.
You can seem like someone from another world just because you know this
thing, called truth.
So then, if the basis of the definition of mathematical proof--the
definition that waited over ten thousand years for me to give it--is
this thing called truth, which I have not defined, then did I do
anything?
Or maybe you think others have defined truth?
I can assure you that if you understood truth then you would
understand.
James Harris
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Captured for posterity! |
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Aatu Koskensilta
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 277
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:14 am Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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Gene Ward Smith wrote:
| Quote: | jst...@msn.com wrote:
Or maybe you think others have defined truth?
"P is true" iff P, according to Tarski.
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That's not Tarski's definition of truth, but the T-scheme. Tarski's
actual definition of truth was (a variant of) the usual inductive one.
The T-scheme is an adequacy condition on any such definition; according
to Tarski a definition of truth must yield all instances of the T-scheme.
--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.koskensilta@xortec.fi)
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus |
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marc.t.davies@gmail.com
science forum addict
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:15 am Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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| Quote: | I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
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Nothing quite like delusions of grandeur to start your day, is there? |
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Aatu Koskensilta
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 277
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:22 am Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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jstevh@msn.com wrote:
| Quote: | And that something became the definition which I like to give:
A mathematical proof begins with a truth and proceeds by logical steps
to a conclusion which then must be true.
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Every even integer greater than two can be written as the sum of two
primes. Hence every even integer greater than two can be written as the
sum of two primes.
Is this a proof of Goldbach's conjecture?
--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.koskensilta@xortec.fi)
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus |
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David C. Ullrich
science forum Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 2250
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:13 am Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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On 12 Jun 2006 22:19:18 -0700, jstevh@msn.com wrote:
| Quote: | I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
|
What's odd is that you don't seem to have noticed
the explanations that your definition is _wrong_.
| Quote: | Here we are thousands of years into human civilization, and I'd read
these texts talking about how it wasn't really settled what
mathematical proof was,
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What??? That's very well settled - you're misunderstanding
something you read (which of course is a big surprise).
| Quote: | and after some years, I had something.
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So let's see. You have an incorrect answer to a problem
that's already been solved (namely the definition of
mathematical proof).
| Quote: | And that something became the definition which I like to give:
A mathematical proof begins with a truth and proceeds by logical steps
to a conclusion which then must be true.
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A proof by contradiction does not satisfy this definition.
Supposing that this _were_ correct. You really think that
nobody else in history has had this deep insight?
Jeez.
************************
David C. Ullrich |
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amzoti
science forum beginner
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject:
Re: JSH: But what is truth?
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jstevh@msn.com wrote:
| Quote: | A mathematical proof is a mathematical argument that begins with a
truth and proceeds by logical steps to a conclusion which then must be
true.
Useless Ramblings snipped
James Harris
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You missed April 1st by a long shot! Ha ha!
Perhaps you can start here.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Proof.html
http://consc.net/chalmers/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof
I have never met someone with delusions of granduer like you.
Your Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is truly shining these
days!
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for
admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and
present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the
following:
has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without
commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance,
beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be
understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status
people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of
especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her
expectations
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to
achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings
and needs of others
is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
or her
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Get back on the meds before you slip into the abyss! |
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The Last Danish Pastry
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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<jstevh@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1150175958.483339.89150@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
|
Oh, that sentence structure. Such precision of thought. Marvellous.
| Quote: | Here we are thousands of years into human civilization, and I'd read
these texts talking about how it wasn't really settled what
mathematical proof was, and after some years, I had something.
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Fantastic!! Please carry on! Define something else, please?
I guess I should really let you choose what you want to define. But
how about defining "pencil", or "love", or "banana"??
Go on, define "banana"!
--
Clive Tooth
www.clivetooth.dk
Stock photos:
http://submit.shutterstock.com/?ref=61771 |
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Denis Feldmann
science forum addict
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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The Last Danish Pastry a écrit :
| Quote: | jstevh@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1150175958.483339.89150@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
Oh, that sentence structure. Such precision of thought. Marvellous.
Here we are thousands of years into human civilization, and I'd read
these texts talking about how it wasn't really settled what
mathematical proof was, and after some years, I had something.
Fantastic!! Please carry on! Define something else, please?
I guess I should really let you choose what you want to define. But
how about defining "pencil", or "love", or "banana"??
Go on, define "banana"!
What have you got against bananas? Was it not enough to point out, a few |
cycles ago, that they were less worth of mathematical value than James'
proofs (by noticing that those had at least a chance (measured by a
strictly positive classical real) to get published in a mathematical
review, on April Fool's day, for instance, while the probability of
publication of a real banana was exactly 0). |
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The Last Danish Pastry
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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"Denis Feldmann" <denis.feldmann.asupprimer@club-internet.fr> wrote in
message news:448ee6a4$0$7761$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr...
| Quote: | The Last Danish Pastry a écrit :
jstevh@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1150175958.483339.89150@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as
a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
Oh, that sentence structure. Such precision of thought. Marvellous.
Here we are thousands of years into human civilization, and I'd
read
these texts talking about how it wasn't really settled what
mathematical proof was, and after some years, I had something.
Fantastic!! Please carry on! Define something else, please?
I guess I should really let you choose what you want to define. But
how about defining "pencil", or "love", or "banana"??
Go on, define "banana"!
What have you got against bananas? Was it not enough to point out, a
few cycles ago, that they were less worth of mathematical value than
James' proofs (by noticing that those had at least a chance
(measured by a strictly positive classical real) to get published in
a mathematical review, on April Fool's day, for instance, while the
probability of publication of a real banana was exactly 0).
|
In these politically correct days what journal editor would dare
declare that he would not publish a real banana? Bananas have rights
too, you know. Anyway, I have got nothing against bananas - some of my
best friends are bananas.
--
Clive Tooth
www.clivetooth.dk
Stock photos:
http://submit.shutterstock.com/?ref=61771 |
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Virgil
science forum Guru
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 5536
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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<jstevh@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1150175958.483339.89150@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I think when I finally realized something about who I had to be as a
historical figure, it was when I came up with the definition of
mathematical proof, as it was such an odd thing.
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Shouldn't that be "hysterical figure"? |
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Tim Peters
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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[The Last Danish Pastry, to JSH]
| Quote: | ...
I guess I should really let you choose what you want to define. But how
about defining "pencil", or "love", or "banana"??
Go on, define "banana"!
|
I'll do it for him, if you don't mind (he has much more important things to
do!): a banana is a fruit (or maybe a vegetable), that starts with a truth,
and proceeds by bananaish fruitful (or maybe vegetative) steps to a
conclusion which must be a banana. If it's still not clear, bananas by
contradiction don't exist. |
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mensanator@aol.compost
science forum Guru
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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Tim Peters wrote:
| Quote: | [The Last Danish Pastry, to JSH]
...
I guess I should really let you choose what you want to define. But how
about defining "pencil", or "love", or "banana"??
Go on, define "banana"!
I'll do it for him, if you don't mind (he has much more important things to
do!): a banana is a fruit (or maybe a vegetable), that starts with a truth,
and proceeds by bananaish fruitful (or maybe vegetative) steps to a
conclusion which must be a banana. If it's still not clear, bananas by
contradiction don't exist.
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What about a plantain? |
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Denis Feldmann
science forum addict
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject:
Re: But what is truth?
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mensanator@aol.compost a écrit :
| Quote: | Tim Peters wrote:
[The Last Danish Pastry, to JSH]
...
I guess I should really let you choose what you want to define. But how
about defining "pencil", or "love", or "banana"??
Go on, define "banana"!
I'll do it for him, if you don't mind (he has much more important things to
do!): a banana is a fruit (or maybe a vegetable), that starts with a truth,
and proceeds by bananaish fruitful (or maybe vegetative) steps to a
conclusion which must be a banana. If it's still not clear, bananas by
contradiction don't exist.
What about a plantain?
You are lying again, I see. |
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