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| Author |
Message |
guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject:
It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
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F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
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PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
PD
| Quote: |
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
|
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| Back to top |
|
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
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|
|
PD wrote:
| Quote: | guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
|
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
In (1) G remains constant regardless of the other planetary masses
farther away then M & m
in (2) k is dependant on the other charges (same as other masses) in
the medium Q&q are in.
| Quote: |
PD
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
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| Back to top |
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
In (1) G remains constant regardless of the other planetary masses
farther away then M & m
in (2) k is dependant on the other charges (same as other masses) in
the medium Q&q are in.
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
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|
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
|
The mass, if it wasn't clear.
| Quote: |
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
|
There is no dielectric effect with gravity. That's because there are
not two different signs of gravitational charge and so there is no
polarization of a medium available.
| Quote: |
In (1) G remains constant regardless of the other planetary masses
farther away then M & m
in (2) k is dependant on the other charges (same as other masses) in
the medium Q&q are in.
PD
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
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| Back to top |
|
|
Sue...
science forum Guru
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
PD wrote:
| Quote: | guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
The mass, if it wasn't clear.
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
There is no dielectric effect with gravity. That's because there are
not two different signs of gravitational charge and so there is no
polarization of a medium available.
|
Strange then, that Professor Einstein tho't that gravitional forces
should be conditioned by the speed of light and as a teacher
of Maxwell's equations he surely knew eps and mu were the
determining factors.
http://www.research.ibm.com/grape/grape_ewald.htm
http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/inddip.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html
Sue...
| Quote: |
In (1) G remains constant regardless of the other planetary masses
farther away then M & m
in (2) k is dependant on the other charges (same as other masses) in
the medium Q&q are in.
PD
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
PD wrote:
| Quote: | guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
The mass, if it wasn't clear.
OK and that's a good comparison because K varies with the density of |
the medium (density of mass) where as G remains constant: F= GMm/r^2
F=k Qq/r^2 (strange that k is not similar to G and constant no
matter what other charges are in Q&q neighborhood of travel)
| Quote: |
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
There is no dielectric effect with gravity. That's because there are
not two different signs of gravitational charge and so there is no
polarization of a medium available.
|
Ok there's no dipole fields (Q attractred by one pole, repelled by the
other by a vector proportional to k) but there is monopoles fields for
gravity in a way maybe?.....all planets pull inward (attraction).
| Quote: |
In (1) G remains constant regardless of the other planetary masses
farther away then M & m
in (2) k is dependant on the other charges (same as other masses) in
the medium Q&q are in.
PD
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
The mass, if it wasn't clear.
OK and that's a good comparison because K varies with the density of
the medium (density of mass)
|
Not necessarily.
| Quote: | where as G remains constant: F= GMm/r^2
F=k Qq/r^2 (strange that k is not similar to G and constant no
matter what other charges are in Q&q neighborhood of travel)
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
There is no dielectric effect with gravity. That's because there are
not two different signs of gravitational charge and so there is no
polarization of a medium available.
Ok there's no dipole fields (Q attractred by one pole, repelled by the
other by a vector proportional to k) but there is monopoles fields for
gravity in a way maybe?.....all planets pull inward (attraction).
|
That's right.
| Quote: |
In (1) G remains constant regardless of the other planetary masses
farther away then M & m
in (2) k is dependant on the other charges (same as other masses) in
the medium Q&q are in.
PD
Get what I'm getting at, the other medium's permittiivty & k is
increased by the amount of electrons (or electric force) in them
only......likewise perhaps space and it's k value (thus electric force
affects permittivity and not vice versa ...... k = Ef / volume of
space (or medium)) ??? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PD
science forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
Sue... wrote:
| Quote: | PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
The mass, if it wasn't clear.
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
There is no dielectric effect with gravity. That's because there are
not two different signs of gravitational charge and so there is no
polarization of a medium available.
Strange then, that Professor Einstein tho't that gravitional forces
should be conditioned by the speed of light and as a teacher
of Maxwell's equations he surely knew eps and mu were the
determining factors.
|
Actually, no, and this is important.
Light and gravitation travel at c because that's the maximum speed that
a 1/r^2 field can propagate, period.
The fact that c is related to permittivity and permeability of a
*vacuum* has to do with an accident of choice of unit systems.
The fact that c is related to permittivity and permeability of a medium
has to do with the absorption and re-emission of signals traveling at c
between scattering centers in the medium.
Now, it is *entirely possible* that a gravitational signal propagates
at a speed lower than c in a massive medium. No measurement of the
speed of a gravitational signal through a vacuum, let alone through a
massive medium, has yet been performed, AFAIK. And AFAIK no quantum
theory of gravity has yet quantitatively predicted a gravitational
"index of refraction" of matter. That would be very interesting to
pursue, however.
PD
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Sorcerer
science forum Guru
Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
"PD" <TheDraperFamily@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150294300.113317.207120@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
| Light and gravitation travel at c because that's the maximum speed that
| a 1/r^2 field can propagate, period.
Nonsense. Pure unadulterated bullshit.
| The fact that c is related to permittivity and permeability of a
| *vacuum* has to do with an accident of choice of unit systems.
There is no "fact".
| The fact that c is related to permittivity and permeability of a medium
| has to do with the absorption and re-emission of signals traveling at c
| between scattering centers in the medium.
Total nonsense. When a photon collides with an atom it is either absorbed
and later re-emitted at any quantum level (hence Balmer, Lyman, Paschen
and Pfund series) and in any direction, or it passes right on through.
| Now, it is *entirely possible* that a gravitational signal propagates
| at a speed lower than c in a massive medium. No measurement of the
| speed of a gravitational signal through a vacuum, let alone through a
| massive medium, has yet been performed, AFAIK. And AFAIK no quantum
| theory of gravity has yet quantitatively predicted a gravitational
| "index of refraction" of matter. That would be very interesting to
| pursue, however.
|
| PD
You are wildly guessing (as far as you do not know).
Permittivity and permeability are properties of matter, space
is not matter and has no properties. A static electric field is extremely
simple
to set up, every TV tube has one, and inside is a whole lot of NOTHING
for the electrons to pass through, and there is no requirement for a speed
of electric field or a speed of gravity.
Androcles |
|
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Sue...
science forum Guru
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
PD wrote:
| Quote: | Sue... wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
F= k qq/r^2 and k = 1/permittivity, therefore both k & permittivity
vary for each medium?
And the MAIN difference between MEDIUMS is they have different amounts
of electrons & protons, since these are what vary the permittivity
therefore it SEEMS THAT THE ELECTRIC FORCE VARIES AND GENERATES THE
PERMITTIVITY AND NOT VICE-VERSA???
If the difference between k of air and k of glass is the molecular
structure and/or electric force, it would seem that k is GENERATED BY
THEM and LIKEWISE THE k & PERMITTIIVITY of SPACE...therefore perhaps
space is not truly empty but is interacting with lowest quantity of
these same forces (electric forces...perhaps the energy field of the
ether)???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The dielectric effect is caused by the polarization of the charge pairs
in the medium. This polarization is indeed caused by the presence of an
external electric field. Without the external electric field, there is
no polarization.
However, the permittivity is simply a constant that tells you HOW MUCH
polarization you get per unit of external field. It is a
proportionality constant that depends on the material. The polarization
changes as you change the strength of the field, but the permittivity
does not (essentially).
It's like F=ma. The mass tells you how much acceleration you'll get if
you apply a force to an object. If there is no net force, there will be
no acceleration of the object, but that doesn't mean the mass goes
away.
What are you comparing the permittivity too, the mass or the
acceleration or the force?
The mass, if it wasn't clear.
Newton's "G" doesn't vary when traveling between denser mediums or a
space with more local planets, where as k does vary???? (1)F= GMm/r^2
vs (2) F = kQq/r^2
There is no dielectric effect with gravity. That's because there are
not two different signs of gravitational charge and so there is no
polarization of a medium available.
Strange then, that Professor Einstein tho't that gravitional forces
should be conditioned by the speed of light and as a teacher
of Maxwell's equations he surely knew eps and mu were the
determining factors.
Actually, no, and this is important.
Light and gravitation travel at c because that's the maximum speed that
a 1/r^2 field can propagate, period.
|
1/r^2 is a geometric function like Pythagoras. It places no
limits on physical phenomena.
The mass of the electron and the Coulomb force establish c.
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Images/alphaeq.gif
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/alpha.html
| Quote: | The fact that c is related to permittivity and permeability of a
*vacuum* has to do with an accident of choice of unit systems.
The fact that c is related to permittivity and permeability of a medium
has to do with the absorption and re-emission of signals traveling at c
between scattering centers in the medium.
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Where does this absorbtion and re-emission occur between
a television transimitter and the receiver ?
| Quote: |
Now, it is *entirely possible* that a gravitational signal propagates
at a speed lower than c in a massive medium. No measurement of the
speed of a gravitational signal through a vacuum, let alone through a
massive medium, has yet been performed, AFAIK. And AFAIK no quantum
theory of gravity has yet quantitatively predicted a gravitational
"index of refraction" of matter. That would be very interesting to
pursue, however.
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See how well quantum theory descrbes magnetic and London force.
If the shoe don't fit... don't wear it.  )
Sue...
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
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In article <1150319711.996886.236770@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Sue... <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
In EM, c was defined (a la Maxwell) as one over the square root of the
product of the permitivity and permeability of free space. Not the
electron/Coulomb force.
--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.
Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology. |
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Sue...
science forum Guru
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
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Phineas T Puddleduck wrote:
Actually Maxwell got the number from Weber. Weber
didn't realise that light moving along a wire was the same
as light moving through space.
<< Again, the first term represents a force pointing in
the direction of the charge (for an oppositely-charged
test partiicle) and with a magnitude that drops off in
proportion to the inverse-square of the distance, but the
second term represents something quite different. It is a
force proportional to the acceleration of the charge, so it
can be positive or negative, and the magnitude drops off
as the inverse distance (not the inverse of the squared distance).
Furthermore, the force at the coordinates (x,t) depends on the
acceleration of the charge at the earlier time t, which implies
that the effect of the acceleration propagates outward from
the charge at the speed c. >>
http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath575/kmath575.htm
"Retarded potential"
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node50.html
Sue...
| Quote: |
--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.
Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology. |
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
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|
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In article <1150320344.146847.285530@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
Sue... <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: | In EM, c was defined (a la Maxwell) as one over the square root of the
product of the permitivity and permeability of free space. Not the
electron/Coulomb force.
Actually Maxwell got the number from Weber. Weber
didn't realise that light moving along a wire was the same
as light moving through space.
|
I was talking definition wise. As in solving the four equations and
noting a wave equation drops out with the relevant mu_0 epsilon_0 term.
--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.
Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sue...
science forum Guru
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject:
Re: It's seems the Electric Force generates permittivity and NOT VICE VERSA?
|
|
|
Phineas T Puddleduck wrote:
| Quote: | In article <1150320344.146847.285530@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
Sue... <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
In EM, c was defined (a la Maxwell) as one over the square root of the
product of the permitivity and permeability of free space. Not the
electron/Coulomb force.
Actually Maxwell got the number from Weber. Weber
didn't realise that light moving along a wire was the same
as light moving through space.
I was talking definition wise. As in solving the four equations and
noting a wave equation drops out with the relevant mu_0 epsilon_0 term.
|
That is using asumptions to prove the assumptions.
Electron motion is still fundamental to the 'definition'.
<< 4. Extended Maxwell's equations as a subset derived from only one
unified equation Re + i Im = 0 in relativistic quantum electrodynamics
..
The idea for the following relativistic equation was an
impuls - energy - quantum formulation on the basis of
Einstein's energy law, Newton's impuls law and Faraday's
induction law considering relativistic and arbitrary
movements of an electron. In all derivations no conventional
field terms D, E, B, H, J are explicitely used but only
the superior magnetic vector potential A & special formulation
of an EXTENDED scalar potential PHIs. >>
http://www.wolfram-stanek.de/maxwell_equations.htm
If you saddle free space with the burden of making
magnetism where no matter exist, then you don't
have enough voltage to illumiate all four of these peepers:
http://www.eso.org/projects/vlti/
....with a single atomic emission.
Sue...
| Quote: |
--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.
Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology. |
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