FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » Electromagnetics
RF power dissipation and scattering in very thin metallic films
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 1 [4 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
Phony Account
science forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: RF power dissipation and scattering in very thin metallic films Reply with quote
Hello group,

Could someone point me to a reference(s) that deal with RF interaction
with very thin conducting films. By thin I mean having a thickness of
the order and smaller than a skin depth.

Thank you,

Mirko Vukovic
Back to top
Josef Matz
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: RF power dissipation and scattering in very thin metallic films Reply with quote
Ok. Shining films or transparent mirrors fall in that category. See Landolt
Bernstein where the thickness
dependent index is tabled.

But warning: This theory is wrong !!!!!

There are severe mistakes in the so called metal optics theory. I wonder
that this has not been
discovered over the years that ellipsometric measurements do not agree with
present metal optic
theories.

So much labs worked with the wrong that this demonstrates that it is custom
in experimenters circles
to never question the theory but to select and adopt the measurements
results to the written nonsense.

Josef Matz




<phaccount@nycap.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1150395708.939851.30230@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Hello group,

Could someone point me to a reference(s) that deal with RF interaction
with very thin conducting films. By thin I mean having a thickness of
the order and smaller than a skin depth.

Thank you,

Mirko Vukovic
Back to top
Phony Account
science forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: RF power dissipation and scattering in very thin metallic films Reply with quote
Jozef,

I am not familiar with that reference. Do you have its title that can
help me find it?

Regarding your comments on the discrepancy between theory and
experiment, what is the theory based on? Naively I assumed just
Maxwell's equations equations using bulk resistivity. Thinking of it
now, micron thin films, I guess electron scattering of interfaces may
become important.

Thanks,

Mirko


Josef Matz wrote:
Quote:
Ok. Shining films or transparent mirrors fall in that category. See Landolt
Bernstein where the thickness
dependent index is tabled.

stuff deleted ...

Quote:
Josef Matz




phaccount@nycap.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1150395708.939851.30230@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello group,

Could someone point me to a reference(s) that deal with RF interaction
with very thin conducting films. By thin I mean having a thickness of
the order and smaller than a skin depth.

Thank you,

Mirko Vukovic
Back to top
Josef Matz
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: RF power dissipation and scattering in very thin metallic films Reply with quote
----- Original Message -----
From: <phaccount@nycap.rr.com>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: RF power dissipation and scattering in very thin metallic films


Quote:
Jozef,

I am not familiar with that reference. Do you have its title that can
help me find it?


Its a tablework of physical stuff. For example index of refraction of
different glases, complex index of metals
etc. and also other tableworks on other properties. After the index of bulk
metals there comes a section
that very thin metal layers have a thickness dependent index (measurement
result). But it is a wrong assumption
in the background where for example the gold film on glass substrate has no
vacuumlayer in between.
Therefore the properties of a vanishing gold layer do not disappear in the
limit thickness to zero. This
wrong reflection and transmission formulas then have been taken as true and
by measurement the index
is approved to be thickness dependent. But in reality it is not or only if
very few atomic layers are a little.
Therefore if you separate your layers in vacuum in thoughts and shift them
together you get the right
reflection and transmission coefficients. This a main mistake in old Drudes
theory of layers which is still
applied in optics laboratories and at unversities.
The vacuum layer is a global concept which in the case of gradients of
optical properties leads to the
insight that vacuum is everywhere and matter is everywhere. The vacuum layer
is the envelope which
contains matter. This revolutionary concept makes a new theory of index
which in the end is fully
theoretical acceptable. The old Drude theory was in doubts by strong
theoretical physicits because
was not able to calcuate energy fluxes and energy densities. This can be
overcome by the introduction
of vacuum layers. The index for a few atomic layers of metal atoms is almost
independent on thickness.
Only beyond there are to expect discrepancies and deviations from plate
theory because of the atomic
nature of matter. That is not surprising.

Quote:
Regarding your comments on the discrepancy between theory and
experiment, what is the theory based on? Naively I assumed just
Maxwell's equations equations using bulk resistivity. Thinking of it
now, micron thin films, I guess electron scattering of interfaces may
become important.


Yes bulk resistivity is correct answer but do not forget a infinite thin
vacuum layer between two
substances. This make the old theory fake where this was not included. !!!!

If the atomic nature of matter does not come through, i.e. if the films are
homogen formed up and not
too thin, then the photon absorption is fully described by the complex
index.
It contains already the
homogene photon scattering at the free electrones. My theory is just for
electromagnetic waves we associate
with photon propagation in matter. So it is not a theory describing the
interactions due to compton effect.
But even this should be handable by an appropriate quantum theory of HF
index. Deviations of HF index
from index 1 are very small in general. Therefore electron scattering should
not have so much influence in
my opinion. But this as i sayed is not contained in my theory.

thanks Josef

Quote:
Thanks,

Mirko


Josef Matz wrote:
Ok. Shining films or transparent mirrors fall in that category. See
Landolt
Bernstein where the thickness
dependent index is tabled.

stuff deleted ...

Josef Matz




phaccount@nycap.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1150395708.939851.30230@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello group,

Could someone point me to a reference(s) that deal with RF interaction
with very thin conducting films. By thin I mean having a thickness of
the order and smaller than a skin depth.

Thank you,

Mirko Vukovic



<phaccount@nycap.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1150723375.623923.252950@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Jozef,

I am not familiar with that reference. Do you have its title that can
help me find it?

Regarding your comments on the discrepancy between theory and
experiment, what is the theory based on? Naively I assumed just
Maxwell's equations equations using bulk resistivity. Thinking of it
now, micron thin films, I guess electron scattering of interfaces may
become important.

Thanks,

Mirko


Josef Matz wrote:
Ok. Shining films or transparent mirrors fall in that category. See
Landolt
Bernstein where the thickness
dependent index is tabled.

stuff deleted ...

Josef Matz




phaccount@nycap.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1150395708.939851.30230@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello group,

Could someone point me to a reference(s) that deal with RF interaction
with very thin conducting films. By thin I mean having a thickness of
the order and smaller than a skin depth.

Thank you,

Mirko Vukovic

Back to top
Google
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 1 [4 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:12 am | All times are GMT
Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » Electromagnetics
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts Power Method and negative eigenvalues Skunk num-analysis 7 Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:19 pm
No new posts Demanding loyalty to few in power o... gb6724 New Theories 3 Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:44 pm
No new posts power series bill Math 1 Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:48 am
No new posts Noise Measurments of Enclosed Power g... Christos Koutsodimakis - Acoustics 5 Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:42 am
No new posts World Power theory to black holes, ap... gb6724 New Theories 6 Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:30 pm

Mortgage | Money News | Loans | Debt Consolidation | Mortgage Calculator
Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Electronics forum |  Medicine forum |  Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

[ Time: 0.1737s ][ Queries: 16 (0.0878s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]