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Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum
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srp
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

John C. Polasek a écrit :
Quote:
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:06:36 GMT, srp <srp2@globetrotter.net> wrote:

Tom Roberts a écrit :
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum.
No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....


Tom Roberts
To my knowledge, in SI, eps_0 can be set to 1/(4 pi c^2 10^-7)

André Michaud
Why do you say that Andre?

This is simply an alternate definition of eps_0. The corresponding
mu_0 is = 4 pi 10^-7. From Stratton. I also saw it used in various
other refs, Resnick and Halliday for example.

Quote:
To denominate eps0 in terms of c^-2 , I
have in Eq. 5-35 of my book
eps0 = e^2/Lmc^2 = 8.8e-12 Farad/meter
where L is the electron-positron cell size 3.54e-14m
which comes down to
e^2/eps0*L = mc^2.

Is that of any use?
JP

Well, in my model, your L2 = alpha lambda_C
and is what I named the integrated electron Compton wavelength
(your equation 4-5)
because it turns out to be the lower limit of integration of the
energy of a localized electron (from infinity down to r=r_e.

So, your L is twice that wavelength L = 2 L2

In my model, there is no need anymore for eps_0 nor mu_0.

When combined in a certain manner with the integrated wavelength,
they integrate to provide a transverse integrated amplitude from
which the energy of the particle can be calculated from transverse
acceleration without exceeding the speed of light.

For the electron rest energy, for example,

m_e c^2 = E_e = (e^2 10^-7) c^2/((lambda_C alpha)/(2 pi)) (joules)

In my model, joules define as (C^2 m)/s^2

André Michaud
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C6L1V@shaw.ca
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Posts: 628

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote:
"Tom Roberts" <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:TIEkg.63333$4L1.61113@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of
the
physical space or vacuum.

No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....

Permeability to 1/4pi? What unit system is that?

The old MKS system, I think, with charge measured in statcoulombs. In
that system, the force F (dynes) between two charges Q1 and Q2 at
distance r (cm) is F = Q1*Q2/r^2. Many of the EM books up to about the
mid 1950's used that system, but is has now passed out of fashion.

R.G. Vickson


Quote:
And I sure would like
to see in which unit system they are set to 1. Wink They actually are
properties of the quantum "vacuum".

FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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FrediFizzx
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Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"arvee" <C6L1V@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1150575109.911367.138130@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Tom Roberts" <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:TIEkg.63333$4L1.61113@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties
of
the
physical space or vacuum.

No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....

Permeability to 1/4pi? What unit system is that?

The old MKS system, I think, with charge measured in statcoulombs. In
that system, the force F (dynes) between two charges Q1 and Q2 at
distance r (cm) is F = Q1*Q2/r^2. Many of the EM books up to about the
mid 1950's used that system, but is has now passed out of fashion.

That would be the gaussian cgs system. Permittivity, not permeability,
is 1/4pi in that system. eps0 = 1/4pi in cgs. Heaviside-Lorentz units
does have eps0 = 1, however Coulomb's constant, k_e = 1/4pi so it is
basically the same thing.

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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Sue...
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Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

GSS wrote:
Quote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum. For detailed presentation of this notion,
kindly refer to,

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/eps_mu.html

GSS

Quoting from: <<

Therefore it stands to reason that we must strive very hard
to unravel and to comprehend the deeper significance of the
proportionality constants 'e0' and 'm0' associated with the
entity called 'empty space' or 'vacuum' or the 'aether' medium
or identified by any other name. >>

I think if you unravel this special case of 'free space'
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node98.html
....you will find it adapts ~easily~ to the various systems
you mentioned in your page.

<< It is said, "Rose by any other
name will smell as sweet". I personally would like to call
this entity the 'Elastic Continuum'. >>

Coulomb's elastic is hard to sew. Why not call it
377 ohms... and ensure that it is. ?

Sue...
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Henri Wilson
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Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 3381

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On 16 Jun 2006 03:03:58 -0700, "Sue..." <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

Quote:

GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum. For detailed presentation of this notion,
kindly refer to,

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/eps_mu.html

GSS

Good page! :-)

It. should be required reading for someone in the market
for more than just a few cubic metres of 377 ohm
'free space'.

Henri Wilson is selling some space at 0 ohms and
infinity that doesn't reflect. Marvelous stuff! . ;-)

I am not placing an order for any 'till it is appropriately
discounted for all the ohms the manufacturer leaves out.

How does one measure the two constants without disturbing the absolute vacuum?

Quote:
Sue...


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Appropriate message snipping is considerate and painless.
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tdp1001@gmail.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Henri Wilson" <HW@..> wrote in message
news:77899256v611r92ps23lj1k8eeq3uloduf@4ax.com...
Quote:
On 16 Jun 2006 03:03:58 -0700, "Sue..." <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote:


GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum. For detailed presentation of this notion,
kindly refer to,

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/eps_mu.html

GSS

Good page! :-)

It. should be required reading for someone in the market
for more than just a few cubic metres of 377 ohm
'free space'.

Henri Wilson is selling some space at 0 ohms and
infinity that doesn't reflect. Marvelous stuff! . ;-)

I am not placing an order for any 'till it is appropriately
discounted for all the ohms the manufacturer leaves out.

How does one measure the two constants without disturbing the absolute
vacuum?

If anyone really wants to understand
why the constants Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) exist,
I suggest that they visit my web site,
and read the article "Uniting the four forces".

In a few graphic steps,
this article concisely and clearly shows
that the "C" and "Z" of space are arbitrary constants,

and that permittivity and permeability of space constants
follow naturally from the selection of the values for
the "C" and "Z" of space.

I might also mention that the
"C" and "Z" of on non-space for non-lossy media
are functions of the "index of refraction" for each media.

In other words,
the "C", "index of refraction", and "Z" for space
are set arbitrarily to 299,792,458 meters per second, one "1.00000",
and approximately 377 ohms,
and the "C", "index of refraction", and "Z" for other materials
follow directly from this.

The values for the permittivity and permeability of space
follow naturally from the selection of the values
for the "C" and "Z" of space.

The article also demonstrates that the constants
are basically expressions of the way forces are perceived, (By object size)
and shows how the constants for forces, other than the "big four",
can be determined.

In other words,
forces should be categorized by magnitude,
rather than lumped into categories based on size
such as strong, weak, E-M, gravitational, etc.,
and all these constants can be done away with.

The "forces concept" focuses on size:
particles (Small nuclear force),
nuclei (Strong nuclear force),
atoms (E-M force),
larger bodies (Gravitational force)

and ignores the fact that a continuum of force levels exist for each size,
and it isolates some sizes (The big four)
while lumping some sizes together.
(Molecules, planetary systems, galaxies, etc.)

The article develops a unique Physical Properties Chart
that shows the relationships between the physical properties
much as the Periodic Chart shows the relationships
between the elements.

In other words, you can use the chart
to verify the dimensions of existing equations,
and to come up with unique equations of your own.

And if you like Towers of Babel,
you can separate out other "forces" by size,
and find the required constants to rationalize them.

And who knows?
The article might help you
get a Nobel Prize for discovering the
"C", "index of refraction", and "Z" for molecules and galaxies.

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
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Sorcerer1
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e72gvg$1d9n$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...

| The values for the permittivity and permeability of space
| follow naturally from the selection of the values
| for the "C" and "Z" of space.

Light travels from A to A in time t'A-tA, so c = 0/0.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img7.gif
Electrons travel from cathode to anode in the space enclosed
by TV tubes, z = 0.
Division by zero is undefined, you can achieve any values
you wish.
Androcles
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

Tom Potter wrote:
Quote:
"Henri Wilson" <HW@..> wrote in message
news:77899256v611r92ps23lj1k8eeq3uloduf@4ax.com...
On 16 Jun 2006 03:03:58 -0700, "Sue..." <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote:


GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum. For detailed presentation of this notion,
kindly refer to,

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/eps_mu.html

GSS

Good page! :-)

It. should be required reading for someone in the market
for more than just a few cubic metres of 377 ohm
'free space'.

Henri Wilson is selling some space at 0 ohms and
infinity that doesn't reflect. Marvelous stuff! . ;-)

I am not placing an order for any 'till it is appropriately
discounted for all the ohms the manufacturer leaves out.

How does one measure the two constants without disturbing the absolute
vacuum?

If anyone really wants to understand
why the constants Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) exist,
I suggest that they visit my web site,
and read the article "Uniting the four forces".

I don't trust it because the winding resistance isn't
shown on the LC on the chalkbord. Either we are
to assume it is superconductive or that what the
lecturerer's handwaving is all about. Surprised)

Quote:

In a few graphic steps,
this article concisely and clearly shows
that the "C" and "Z" of space are arbitrary constants,

and that permittivity and permeability of space constants
follow naturally from the selection of the values for
the "C" and "Z" of space.

I might also mention that the
"C" and "Z" of on non-space for non-lossy media
are functions of the "index of refraction" for each media.

Betting that homongenous spaces will radiate is usually
a pretty safe bet. So fixing some impedance/admittance
is a good way to stay out of a tail-chase about eps and mu.


Quote:

In other words,
the "C", "index of refraction", and "Z" for space
are set arbitrarily to 299,792,458 meters per second, one "1.00000",
and approximately 377 ohms,
and the "C", "index of refraction", and "Z" for other materials
follow directly from this.

The values for the permittivity and permeability of space
follow naturally from the selection of the values
for the "C" and "Z" of space.

The article also demonstrates that the constants
are basically expressions of the way forces are perceived, (By object size)
and shows how the constants for forces, other than the "big four",
can be determined.

In other words,
forces should be categorized by magnitude,
rather than lumped into categories based on size
such as strong, weak, E-M, gravitational, etc.,
and all these constants can be done away with.

The "forces concept" focuses on size:
particles (Small nuclear force),
nuclei (Strong nuclear force),
atoms (E-M force),
larger bodies (Gravitational force)

and ignores the fact that a continuum of force levels exist for each size,
and it isolates some sizes (The big four)
while lumping some sizes together.
(Molecules, planetary systems, galaxies, etc.)

The article develops a unique Physical Properties Chart
that shows the relationships between the physical properties
much as the Periodic Chart shows the relationships
between the elements.

In other words, you can use the chart
to verify the dimensions of existing equations,
and to come up with unique equations of your own.

And if you like Towers of Babel,
you can separate out other "forces" by size,
and find the required constants to rationalize them.

And who knows?
The article might help you
get a Nobel Prize for discovering the
"C", "index of refraction", and "Z" for molecules and galaxies.

377 ohms sounds good to me. If nothing reflects back to you
then you are matched to that one way or another

<< Note that in the far field, E and H are related by the
characteristic impedance of the medium (120 pi or 377
ohms for a vacuum). In the vicinity of r_o, there is a transition
region where all terms are of the same order of magnitude. >>
http://www.conformity.com/0102reflections.html

Sue...

Quote:

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
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tdp1001@gmail.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
news:988lg.195431$8W1.135620@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e72gvg$1d9n$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...

| The values for the permittivity and permeability of space
| follow naturally from the selection of the values
| for the "C" and "Z" of space.

Light travels from A to A in time t'A-tA, so c = 0/0.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img7.gif
Electrons travel from cathode to anode in the space enclosed
by TV tubes, z = 0.
Division by zero is undefined, you can achieve any values
you wish.

1. Don't create a strawman
by attributing Einstein's mistakes to me.

2. Arbitrary constants:
C - The "speed of light constant".
Z - The impedance of space constant.

3. Defined by the selections of C and Z.
? = the permittivity of space constant = 1 / (C*Z)
? = the permeability of space constant = Z / C
Y = The admittance of space constant = 1 / Z

4. As can be seen in the article on my web site
"Uniting the four forces",
conventional theories couple the time domain properties
(Which are Nature's real properties.)
to the mass domain properties via two routes,
the "space domain" properties
and the "electro-magnetic domain" properties.

The constant "C" defines the space domain properties
and the constant "Z0" defines the E-M domain properties.

Nature considers C and Z to be one "1.00000000000.." for space,
whereas man considers C to be 299,792,458 meters per second
and Z to be about 377 ohms.

Time periods (Auto-correlations)
and time intervals (Cross-correlations)
are Natures real stuff.

The space domain properties came about
because man perceived time intervals distinct from space
and he needed a constant to bridge the gap.

The E-M domain properties came about
because man perceives time intervals distinct from capacitances
and he needs a constant to bridge the gap.

5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.
Google "plate resistance" and "space charge".

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
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Sorcerer1
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e73puc$jio$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| news:988lg.195431$8W1.135620@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| >
| > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:e72gvg$1d9n$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| >
| > | The values for the permittivity and permeability of space
| > | follow naturally from the selection of the values
| > | for the "C" and "Z" of space.
| >
| > Light travels from A to A in time t'A-tA, so c = 0/0.
| > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img7.gif
| > Electrons travel from cathode to anode in the space enclosed
| > by TV tubes, z = 0.
| > Division by zero is undefined, you can achieve any values
| > you wish.

| 1. Don't create a strawman
| by attributing Einstein's mistakes to me.

It is your claim "values for the permittivity and permeability of space
follow naturally from the selection of the values for the "C" and "Z"
of space", is it not?
Don't make claims you cannot support, Potter.


| 2. Arbitrary constants:
| C - The "speed of light constant".

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Sagnac/Sagnac.htm
Do you mean the red C or the blue C, Potter?



| Z - The impedance of space constant.

Never mind the value, define what you mean by "impedance
of nothing", Potter.

| 5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.

You don't seem to know the difference between AC and DC, Potter.
The effective resistance, known as impedance, is found from
Ohms's law R = E/I, Potter, and for a capacitor is frequency dependent.
A DC circuit as in a TV tube has a frequency of zero, Potter.
It's a short circuit, Potter, not a 377 ohm resistor.

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/AC.htm




| Google "plate resistance" and "space charge".

I've no intention of doing your homework for you, Potter, or
tackling your Aunt Sallies. You can tell me what your theories
are when I have adequate definitions of what the hell you are
babbling about.

Androcles.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
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John C. Polasek
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:46:58 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
<fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m1b892hrhs0pt28rs7q9op3ks8o42ivmfu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:06:36 GMT, srp <srp2@globetrotter.net> wrote:

Tom Roberts a écrit :
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of
the
physical space or vacuum.

No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....


Tom Roberts

To my knowledge, in SI, eps_0 can be set to 1/(4 pi c^2 10^-7)

André Michaud

Why do you say that Andre?

André and I had a big discussion about this recently. Guess you missed
it. Basically André is creating a new unit system based on SI that is
somewhat interesting.

To denominate eps0 in terms of c^-2 , I
have in Eq. 5-35 of my book
eps0 = e^2/Lmc^2 = 8.8e-12 Farad/meter
where L is the electron-positron cell size 3.54e-14m
which comes down to
e^2/eps0*L = mc^2.
Is that of any use?
JP

L = e^2/(eps0 mc^2)

alpha = e^2/(4pi eps0 hbar c)

So your L is 2*alpha*lambda_C, lambda_C being electron compton
wavelength. I think it is too small for "our world" and too big for
Uspace. Your mistake is in using e^2 instead of 4pi*eps0*hbar*c,
quantum "vacuum" charge. L should just be,

To be sure, the expression above was not used to compute L, merely on
expression among several, to accommodate Andre's c^-2.(JP)

Quote:
L = hbar/m_e*c = lambda_C/2pi

for the cell size wrt our spacetime.

Your cell size is in real vacuum, but it's compressed by alpha in
pair-space. (Your mistake is that nothing can really happen in a
vacuum).

I forget how you derived your L, but here's how I derived mine, from
first principles, as usual. (Eq. 3-4 to 3-6 in my book or Eq. 5-7 on
my website Permittivity paper).

The capacity of the cube holding the pair is given by
C = L*eps0 (= eps0 * L^2/L)
A critical voltage Vc will pull both charges to the "walls"
and the resulting capacitive charge displaced is 2 e:
Vc*eps0*L = 2e
L = 2e/Vc*eps0
Vc is 1.022 MV defining the energy needed to free the two charges in
pair production. Each charge is dragged through Vc/2, total W = 1.022
MeV.

John Polasek
http://www.dualspace.net
Quote:
FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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srp
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

John C. Polasek a écrit :
Quote:
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:46:58 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:

"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m1b892hrhs0pt28rs7q9op3ks8o42ivmfu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:06:36 GMT, srp <srp2@globetrotter.net> wrote:

Tom Roberts a écrit :
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of
the
physical space or vacuum.
No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....


Tom Roberts
To my knowledge, in SI, eps_0 can be set to 1/(4 pi c^2 10^-7)

André Michaud
Why do you say that Andre?
André and I had a big discussion about this recently. Guess you missed
it. Basically André is creating a new unit system based on SI that is
somewhat interesting.

To denominate eps0 in terms of c^-2 , I
have in Eq. 5-35 of my book
eps0 = e^2/Lmc^2 = 8.8e-12 Farad/meter
where L is the electron-positron cell size 3.54e-14m
which comes down to
e^2/eps0*L = mc^2.
Is that of any use?
JP
L = e^2/(eps0 mc^2)

alpha = e^2/(4pi eps0 hbar c)

So your L is 2*alpha*lambda_C, lambda_C being electron compton
wavelength. I think it is too small for "our world" and too big for
Uspace. Your mistake is in using e^2 instead of 4pi*eps0*hbar*c,
quantum "vacuum" charge. L should just be,

To be sure, the expression above was not used to compute L, merely on
expression among several, to accommodate Andre's c^-2.(JP)

L = hbar/m_e*c = lambda_C/2pi

for the cell size wrt our spacetime.

Your cell size is in real vacuum, but it's compressed by alpha in
pair-space. (Your mistake is that nothing can really happen in a
vacuum).

I find it quite interesting John that you identified that alpha
"compressing cell size" out of normal space.

I derived the exact same constraint in my model as out of normal
space, which is that alpha compresses the amplitude orthogonally
to the direction of motion in normal space.

In my model, for any given localized electromagnetic particle,
(lambda alpha) /2 pi is the maximum transverse extent of to and fro
travel of its energy transversally to the direction of motion in
vacuum.

The general equation for a photon in my model is

E= hc/(2 lambda) + e^2/2C cos^2(wt) + Li^2/2 sin^2(wt)

C = capacitance of the particle
L = inductance
i = displacement current
hc/(2 lambda) = energy propelling the other half at c

Quote:
I forget how you derived your L, but here's how I derived mine, from
first principles, as usual. (Eq. 3-4 to 3-6 in my book or Eq. 5-7 on
my website Permittivity paper).

The capacity of the cube holding the pair is given by
C = L*eps0 (= eps0 * L^2/L)
A critical voltage Vc will pull both charges to the "walls"
and the resulting capacitive charge displaced is 2 e:
Vc*eps0*L = 2e
L = 2e/Vc*eps0
Vc is 1.022 MV defining the energy needed to free the two charges in
pair production. Each charge is dragged through Vc/2, total W = 1.022
MeV.

John Polasek
http://www.dualspace.net
FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com


André Michaud
Back to top
FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:er9b929c7a55e15nc69pbscc72h6pmkuv5@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:46:58 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:

"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m1b892hrhs0pt28rs7q9op3ks8o42ivmfu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:06:36 GMT, srp <srp2@globetrotter.net
wrote:

Tom Roberts a écrit :
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of
Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties
of
the
physical space or vacuum.

No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units
conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....


Tom Roberts

To my knowledge, in SI, eps_0 can be set to 1/(4 pi c^2 10^-7)

André Michaud

Why do you say that Andre?

André and I had a big discussion about this recently. Guess you
missed
it. Basically André is creating a new unit system based on SI that
is
somewhat interesting.

To denominate eps0 in terms of c^-2 , I
have in Eq. 5-35 of my book
eps0 = e^2/Lmc^2 = 8.8e-12 Farad/meter
where L is the electron-positron cell size 3.54e-14m
which comes down to
e^2/eps0*L = mc^2.
Is that of any use?
JP

L = e^2/(eps0 mc^2)

alpha = e^2/(4pi eps0 hbar c)

So your L is 2*alpha*lambda_C, lambda_C being electron compton
wavelength. I think it is too small for "our world" and too big for
Uspace. Your mistake is in using e^2 instead of 4pi*eps0*hbar*c,
quantum "vacuum" charge. L should just be,

To be sure, the expression above was not used to compute L, merely on
expression among several, to accommodate Andre's c^-2.(JP)

L = hbar/m_e*c = lambda_C/2pi

for the cell size wrt our spacetime.

Your cell size is in real vacuum, but it's compressed by alpha in
pair-space. (Your mistake is that nothing can really happen in a
vacuum).

No, in the "other" 3-brane it could be "compressed" by a factor of 10^20
order due to "warped geometry" between the two 3-branes. We can only
say what things are wrt our 3-brane. The other one is always beyond our
event horizon other than virtual pairs.

Quote:
I forget how you derived your L, but here's how I derived mine, from
first principles, as usual. (Eq. 3-4 to 3-6 in my book or Eq. 5-7 on
my website Permittivity paper).

Unfortunately, it is not from "first principles" since you are only
considering e+e- virtual pairs.

Quote:
The capacity of the cube holding the pair is given by
C = L*eps0 (= eps0 * L^2/L)
A critical voltage Vc will pull both charges to the "walls"
and the resulting capacitive charge displaced is 2 e:
Vc*eps0*L = 2e
L = 2e/Vc*eps0
Vc is 1.022 MV defining the energy needed to free the two charges in
pair production. Each charge is dragged through Vc/2, total W = 1.022
MeV.

How do you explain pion production from the vacuum? You are leaving out
a vast amount of other particles which when all combined happens to add
up to the sqrt(4pi*eps0*hbar*c) for "vacuum" charge. Not 2e. The
sqrt(alpha) is simply the ratio between electronic charge and the total
of "vacuum" charge.

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Back to top
tdp1001@gmail.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
news:CEglg.453474$xt.49975@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e73puc$jio$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| news:988lg.195431$8W1.135620@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
|
| > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:e72gvg$1d9n$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| > | The values for the permittivity and permeability of space
| > | follow naturally from the selection of the values
| > | for the "C" and "Z" of space.
|
| > Light travels from A to A in time t'A-tA, so c = 0/0.
| > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img7.gif
| > Electrons travel from cathode to anode in the space enclosed
| > by TV tubes, z = 0.
| > Division by zero is undefined, you can achieve any values
| > you wish.

| 1. Don't create a strawman
| by attributing Einstein's mistakes to me.

It is your claim "values for the permittivity and permeability of space
follow naturally from the selection of the values for the "C" and "Z"
of space", is it not?
Don't make claims you cannot support, Potter.

| 2. Arbitrary constants:
| C - The "speed of light constant".

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Sagnac/Sagnac.htm
Do you mean the red C or the blue C, Potter?

| Z - The impedance of space constant.

Never mind the value, define what you mean by "impedance
of nothing", Potter.

| 5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.

You don't seem to know the difference between AC and DC, Potter.
The effective resistance, known as impedance, is found from
Ohms's law R = E/I, Potter, and for a capacitor is frequency dependent.
A DC circuit as in a TV tube has a frequency of zero, Potter.
It's a short circuit, Potter, not a 377 ohm resistor.

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/AC.htm

| Google "plate resistance" and "space charge".

I've no intention of doing your homework for you, Potter, or
tackling your Aunt Sallies. You can tell me what your theories
are when I have adequate definitions of what the hell you are
babbling about.

As can be seen
"Sorcerer" uses several "logical fallacies" in his response to my post:
creating a strawman, childishly attacking the messenger
rather than addressing the message in a rational, intelligent way,
obfuscation, equivocation, etc.

But to address the points he did address:

1. "plate resistance" and "space charge" have a resistive component.
Note that the plates (And elements) of vacuum tubes do heat up,
and sometimes get red hot.
Capacitances and inductances DO NOT dissipate energy.

Vacuum tubes also have interelectrode capacitances,
and a tiny amount of inductance.

2. Note that "Sorcerer" calls space "nothing"
when it is clear that a "space" is proportional to a "time interval".

3. Regarding "Sorcerer's" statement:
"Don't make claims you cannot support, Potter."

It is pretty clear that the SPEED OF LIGHT IN A VACUUM CONSTANT "c",
is arbitrarily set to equate a "time interval"
(A time interval is the basic measure of a vacuum.)
to the distance between two points on some physical object
such as a King's body part.

And as can be seen,
if space is homogeneous and isotropic,
and the impedance of space Z0 is the same everywhere,
and in every direction,
then Z0 is an "IMPEDANCE OF A VACUUM CONSTANT".

And if space is homogeneous and isotropic,
and the permittivity of space e0 is the same everywhere,
and in every direction then e0 is a "PERMITTIVITY OF A VACUUM CONSTANT".

And if space is homogeneous and isotropic,
and the permeability of space mu0 is the same everywhere,
and in every direction then mu0 is a "PERMEABILITY OF A VACUUM CONSTANT".

The bottom lines are:

1. Space is a time interval.

2. The SPEED OF LIGHT IN A VACUUM CONSTANT "c"
is used to equate pure space (Time intervals)
to the SPACE between two points on a physical object.

length = time interval * c

3. The "PERMITTIVITY OF A VACUUM CONSTANT"
which is defined by the arbitrary constants
the SPEED OF LIGHT IN A VACUUM CONSTANT "c"
and the "IMPEDANCE OF A VACUUM CONSTANT",
is used to equate pure space
to the CAPACITANCE between two points on a physical object.

Note that the amount of "space" (Time interval) within a physical object
is almost always greater than a parallel sample of a vacuum.

In other words,
an event propagated through a vacuum space
generally has a shorter time interval
than an event propagated through a physical object
parallel to the vacuum space.

I suggest that "Sorcerer" or anyone who wants to comprehend
the real nature of space, the speed of light, impedance, etc.
should visit my web site, and read the short article
"Uniting the four forces",
as the article explains this in a few graphic steps,
far more clearly than can be done using ASCII characters
in a news group.

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
Back to top
John C. Polasek
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:19:06 GMT, srp <srp2@globetrotter.net> wrote:

Quote:
John C. Polasek a écrit :
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:46:58 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
fredifizzx@hotmail.com> wrote:

"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m1b892hrhs0pt28rs7q9op3ks8o42ivmfu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:06:36 GMT, srp <srp2@globetrotter.net> wrote:

Tom Roberts a écrit :
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of
the
physical space or vacuum.
No they don't. In modern physics they are merely units conversion
factors which can be set to 1 by an appropriate choice of units.
Actually permeability is often set to 1/4pi....


Tom Roberts
To my knowledge, in SI, eps_0 can be set to 1/(4 pi c^2 10^-7)

André Michaud
Why do you say that Andre?
André and I had a big discussion about this recently. Guess you missed
it. Basically André is creating a new unit system based on SI that is
somewhat interesting.

To denominate eps0 in terms of c^-2 , I
have in Eq. 5-35 of my book
eps0 = e^2/Lmc^2 = 8.8e-12 Farad/meter
where L is the electron-positron cell size 3.54e-14m
which comes down to
e^2/eps0*L = mc^2.
Is that of any use?
JP
L = e^2/(eps0 mc^2)

alpha = e^2/(4pi eps0 hbar c)

So your L is 2*alpha*lambda_C, lambda_C being electron compton
wavelength. I think it is too small for "our world" and too big for
Uspace. Your mistake is in using e^2 instead of 4pi*eps0*hbar*c,
quantum "vacuum" charge. L should just be,

To be sure, the expression above was not used to compute L, merely on
expression among several, to accommodate Andre's c^-2.(JP)

L = hbar/m_e*c = lambda_C/2pi

for the cell size wrt our spacetime.

Your cell size is in real vacuum, but it's compressed by alpha in
pair-space. (Your mistake is that nothing can really happen in a
vacuum).

I find it quite interesting John that you identified that alpha
"compressing cell size" out of normal space.

I derived the exact same constraint in my model as out of normal
space, which is that alpha compresses the amplitude orthogonally
to the direction of motion in normal space.

In my model, for any given localized electromagnetic particle,
(lambda alpha) /2 pi is the maximum transverse extent of to and fro
travel of its energy transversally to the direction of motion in
vacuum.

The general equation for a photon in my model is

E= hc/(2 lambda) + e^2/2C cos^2(wt) + Li^2/2 sin^2(wt)

C = capacitance of the particle
L = inductance
i = displacement current
hc/(2 lambda) = energy propelling the other half at c

I don't know if you can justify the equation, because the first term
hc/(2 lambda) is 1/2h*f*137 where w = 2pi*f is the oscillation
frequency. It seems you have taken hnu and multiplied it by 137/2.
Also how would you derive the capacitance of the photon, when
capacitance is a lump parameter of coulombs per volt difference.

In my theory a photon would be a ripple running at light speed through
pair-space, (in which sqrt(Y/rho) = c, with Y = Youngs modulus & rho,
mass density).

The (still uncreated) pairs in pair-space are what gives it
permittivity eps0.

JP
Quote:
I forget how you derived your L, but here's how I derived mine, from
first principles, as usual. (Eq. 3-4 to 3-6 in my book or Eq. 5-7 on
my website Permittivity paper).

The capacity of the cube holding the pair is given by
C = L*eps0 (= eps0 * L^2/L)
A critical voltage Vc will pull both charges to the "walls"
and the resulting capacitive charge displaced is 2 e:
Vc*eps0*L = 2e
L = 2e/Vc*eps0
Vc is 1.022 MV defining the energy needed to free the two charges in
pair production. Each charge is dragged through Vc/2, total W = 1.022
MeV.

John Polasek
http://www.dualspace.net
FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com


André Michaud
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