FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » Particle
Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 4 of 5 [65 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Author Message
Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

In article <0otg92t7bn5au2hato1n0dm0qirveic7vr@4ax.com>, Henri Wilson
<HW@..(Henri> wrote:

Quote:

eeh, maybe not.
Sam would say: yes/no that makes 50 percent.
No Sam would not say that..... Ok let Sam peak for himself.

You have wrongly attributed this message to me.
....please apologise or I'll sue.



BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
Back to top
Henri Wilson
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 3381

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpeatmje@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:49:05 GMT) it happened HW@..(Henri Wilson)
wrote in <7ege929lfmngovvfunes2ponehob9fb57l@4ax.com>:

Never mind the value, define what you mean by "impedance
of nothing", Potter.

| 5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.

Indeed


You don't seem to know the difference between AC and DC, Potter.
The effective resistance, known as impedance, is found from
Ohms's law R = E/I, Potter, and for a capacitor is frequency dependent.
A DC circuit as in a TV tube has a frequency of zero, Potter.
It's a short circuit, Potter, not a 377 ohm resistor.

Total and utterly bulshit.
A normal CRT (color) has 3 electron guns, with each about .5 mA (500 ua)
max current (normal operation), so a total of 1.5mA electron current to the
high voltage connection from the cathode*S*.
The high voltage is 25kV, so the impedance seen would be 25000 / .0015 =
16 666 666 Ohm, or 16 MOhm. (mega ohm).

As the electron beam is constantly modulated by the luminance, or in case of
color the RGB signals, the curent varies constantly.
So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage stable
as the laod varies.
A changing high voltage would give a changing picture size for the same
deflection power (magnetic field).
Feedback circuits are used for stabilization.
In the very very old tube color sets, a parallel stabilizer tube was used
(PD100), it had a lot of roentgen radiation too...

Not going to read the rest.

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Man human species, how did it ever get this far.
OK it took some millions of years.
In the lifetime of the current bunch we should have no expectations.
But some did miracles in the previous century.
So maybe there is still hope.

eeh, maybe not.
Sam would say: yes/no that makes 50 percent.
No Sam would not say that..... Ok let Sam peak for himself.

You have wrongly attributed this message to me.
.....please apologise or I'll sue.


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Appropriate message snipping is considerate and painless.
Back to top
Henri Wilson
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 3381

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:20:25 +0800, "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpeatmje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e78i65$4o8$1@news.datemas.de...
On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:49:05 GMT) it happened HW@..(Henri
Wilson)
wrote in <7ege929lfmngovvfunes2ponehob9fb57l@4ax.com>:

Never mind the value, define what you mean by "impedance
of nothing", Potter.

| 5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.

Indeed

You don't seem to know the difference between AC and DC, Potter.
The effective resistance, known as impedance, is found from
Ohms's law R = E/I, Potter, and for a capacitor is frequency dependent.
A DC circuit as in a TV tube has a frequency of zero, Potter.
It's a short circuit, Potter, not a 377 ohm resistor.

Total and utterly bulshit.
A normal CRT (color) has 3 electron guns, with each about .5 mA (500 ua)
max current (normal operation), so a total of 1.5mA electron current to
the
high voltage connection from the cathode*S*.
The high voltage is 25kV, so the impedance seen would be 25000 / .0015 =
16 666 666 Ohm, or 16 MOhm. (mega ohm).

As the electron beam is constantly modulated by the luminance, or in case
of
color the RGB signals, the curent varies constantly.
So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage stable
as the laod varies.
A changing high voltage would give a changing picture size for the same
deflection power (magnetic field).
Feedback circuits are used for stabilization.
In the very very old tube color sets, a parallel stabilizer tube was used
(PD100), it had a lot of roentgen radiation too...

Not going to read the rest.

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Man human species, how did it ever get this far.
OK it took some millions of years.
In the lifetime of the current bunch we should have no expectations.
But some did miracles in the previous century.
So maybe there is still hope.

Thanks to "Jan Panteltje" for supporting my position that:
"The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero."

and that tubes have "plate resistance".

But regarding "Jan Panteltje's" comment:
"So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage stable
as the laod varies."

If the load varies, and the voltage stays constant,
the impedance varies.

impedance = voltage / current

Regarding "Jan Panteltje's" comment:
"how did it <Mankind> ever get this far.
OK it took some millions of years."

A better measure might be necessity
and man-years, rather than years.

For the first million years,
there weren't that many people around,
and of course, technology builds on technology.

It was not possible to make GPS and cellular phone systems
for almost fifty years after the German/American actress Hedy Lamar
invented spread spectrum modulation,

and after Edison invented the diode,
DeForrest stuck in a control grid and invented the triode,
then someone found that the cats whisker crystal was a diode
and the Bell Labs gang stuck a "control grid" in the crystal
and made the point contact transistor,
and then Texas Instruments and Fairchild
learned how to deposit "control grids" on crystals to form field effect
transistors
and added many active and inactive components to form integrated circuits
and then Intel put reprogrammable logic "integrated circuits" on a crystal
to make the microprocessor, etc.

Of course, the great advances in the next few years
will be in energy conservation, information systems mashups,
human engineered, graphics/sound software,
mobile access to and from data bases,
DNA technology for health, plant and animal engineering,
history construction, crime prevention, etc.

They had beter be quick.
Homo sapiens is on the brink of extinction.

Quote:

It's a shame to waste time, money, and minds
speculating about time travel, worm holes, gravitons, etc.
when the time and money could be better spent elsewhere.

As "Jan Panteltje" said:
"maybe there is still hope."

There isn't. The world is irreversibly stuiffed.

Quote:

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Appropriate message snipping is considerate and painless.
Back to top
tdp1001@gmail.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
news:TXVlg.436524$tc.418352@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e78ttj$vct$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| news:wHMlg.200890$8W1.199056@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
|
| > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:e77pk6$31kb$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| > | Regarding "Sorcerer's" statement:
| > | > It is pretty clear that the speed of light is just like any
| > | > other speed, |dx/dt|, Potter.
| > |
| > | "c", the "speed of light constant" is just that, a constant.
| > | It is not a speed.
|
| > I say you are ranting incomprehensible nonsense
|
| > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
|
| > I hereby nominate
| > Tom Potter
| > as the
|
| > **Loudmouth Arsehole of the Month**
|
| > Any seconds??????????????????????
|
| > It's gonna a close contest, might even come down to the Florida vote
| > to decide it.
|
| It is interesting to see that the best that "Sorcerer"
| can respond to my positions
| (Tubes have plate resistance.

You've never heard of superconductors, Potter?
It's cold on the Moon and I wouldn't a need a glass tube
to paint a picture, either. I can design a TV for a lunar environment
without the tube, and I'm not talking about plasma or LCD display.
The tube fullfills three functions, one is to keep air out and the other
two are to provide a fixed distance between cathode, anode, field and
frame coils.
I can use glass rods for the latter and I don't need to consider the
first. Electrons go right through a vacuum as if it were not there,
which it isn't.

"Sorcerer" raises a good point!

Electrons can go through vacuums, and wires, and all kinds of stuff
like it is not there,
so obviously, all this stuff doesn't exist!

But back to the points of contention.

I assert that vacuum tubes have plate resistance,
and that space has impedance,
and "Sorcerer" does not.

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
Back to top
tdp1001@gmail.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Henri Wilson" <HW@..> wrote in message
news:grtg92ln5d0a389u2gr9850bgqf7ec0567@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:20:25 +0800, "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com
wrote:


"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpeatmje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e78i65$4o8$1@news.datemas.de...
On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:49:05 GMT) it happened HW@..(Henri
Wilson)
wrote in <7ege929lfmngovvfunes2ponehob9fb57l@4ax.com>:

Never mind the value, define what you mean by "impedance
of nothing", Potter.

| 5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.

Indeed

You don't seem to know the difference between AC and DC, Potter.
The effective resistance, known as impedance, is found from
Ohms's law R = E/I, Potter, and for a capacitor is frequency
dependent.
A DC circuit as in a TV tube has a frequency of zero, Potter.
It's a short circuit, Potter, not a 377 ohm resistor.

Total and utterly bulshit.
A normal CRT (color) has 3 electron guns, with each about .5 mA (500 ua)
max current (normal operation), so a total of 1.5mA electron current to
the
high voltage connection from the cathode*S*.
The high voltage is 25kV, so the impedance seen would be 25000 / .0015 =
16 666 666 Ohm, or 16 MOhm. (mega ohm).

As the electron beam is constantly modulated by the luminance, or in
case
of
color the RGB signals, the curent varies constantly.
So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage
stable
as the laod varies.
A changing high voltage would give a changing picture size for the same
deflection power (magnetic field).
Feedback circuits are used for stabilization.
In the very very old tube color sets, a parallel stabilizer tube was
used
(PD100), it had a lot of roentgen radiation too...

Not going to read the rest.

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Man human species, how did it ever get this far.
OK it took some millions of years.
In the lifetime of the current bunch we should have no expectations.
But some did miracles in the previous century.
So maybe there is still hope.

Thanks to "Jan Panteltje" for supporting my position that:
"The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero."

and that tubes have "plate resistance".

But regarding "Jan Panteltje's" comment:
"So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage stable
as the laod varies."

If the load varies, and the voltage stays constant,
the impedance varies.

impedance = voltage / current

Regarding "Jan Panteltje's" comment:
"how did it <Mankind> ever get this far.
OK it took some millions of years."

A better measure might be necessity
and man-years, rather than years.

For the first million years,
there weren't that many people around,
and of course, technology builds on technology.

It was not possible to make GPS and cellular phone systems
for almost fifty years after the German/American actress Hedy Lamar
invented spread spectrum modulation,

and after Edison invented the diode,
DeForrest stuck in a control grid and invented the triode,
then someone found that the cats whisker crystal was a diode
and the Bell Labs gang stuck a "control grid" in the crystal
and made the point contact transistor,
and then Texas Instruments and Fairchild
learned how to deposit "control grids" on crystals to form field effect
transistors
and added many active and inactive components to form integrated circuits
and then Intel put reprogrammable logic "integrated circuits" on a crystal
to make the microprocessor, etc.

Of course, the great advances in the next few years
will be in energy conservation, information systems mashups,
human engineered, graphics/sound software,
mobile access to and from data bases,
DNA technology for health, plant and animal engineering,
history construction, crime prevention, etc.

They had beter be quick.
Homo sapiens is on the brink of extinction.


It's a shame to waste time, money, and minds
speculating about time travel, worm holes, gravitons, etc.
when the time and money could be better spent elsewhere.

As "Jan Panteltje" said:
"maybe there is still hope."

There isn't. The world is irreversibly stuiffed.

You may be right.

Billions of people.
Diminishing supplies of energy.
Global warming.
Paranoids like Bush with fingers on nuclear weapons.

Where does it lead?
And how soon?

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
Back to top
Art Deco
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

Phineas T Puddleduck <phineaspuddleduck@googlemail.com_NOSPAM> wrote:

Quote:
In article <0otg92t7bn5au2hato1n0dm0qirveic7vr@4ax.com>, Henri Wilson
HW@..(Henri> wrote:


eeh, maybe not.
Sam would say: yes/no that makes 50 percent.
No Sam would not say that..... Ok let Sam peak for himself.

You have wrongly attributed this message to me.
....please apologise or I'll sue.



BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Wooooot! Please to add moi to this fine ko0kso0t, Herr Wilson!

--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Co-Winner, alt.(f)lame Worst Flame War, December 2005
Official "Usenet psychopath and born-again LLPOF minion",
as designated by Brad Guth

"And without accurate measuring techniques, how can they even
*call* quantum theory a "scientific" one? How can it possibly
be referred to as a "fundamental branch of physics"?"
-- Painsnuh the Lamer

"Well, orientals moved to the U.S. and did amazingly well on
their own, and the races are related (brown)."
-- "Honest" John pontificates on racial purity

"Significant new ideas have rarely come from the ranks of
the establishment."
-- Double-A on technology development
Back to top
Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:36:43 GMT) it happened HW@..(Henri Wilson)
wrote in <0otg92t7bn5au2hato1n0dm0qirveic7vr@4ax.com>:

Quote:
You have wrongly attributed this message to me.
....please apologise or I'll sue.

Oh go to hell.
I replied to a text in a posting that was in itself correctly prepended
with >>>>>



Quote:
HW.
Idiot

Learn ho to use Usenet.
Back to top
Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

Henri Wilson wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpeatmje@yahoo.com
wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:49:05 GMT) it happened HW@..(Henri Wilson)
wrote in <7ege929lfmngovvfunes2ponehob9fb57l@4ax.com>:

Never mind the value, define what you mean by "impedance
of nothing", Potter.

| 5. The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero.

Indeed


You don't seem to know the difference between AC and DC, Potter.
The effective resistance, known as impedance, is found from
Ohms's law R = E/I, Potter, and for a capacitor is frequency dependent.
A DC circuit as in a TV tube has a frequency of zero, Potter.
It's a short circuit, Potter, not a 377 ohm resistor.

Total and utterly bulshit.
A normal CRT (color) has 3 electron guns, with each about .5 mA (500 ua)
max current (normal operation), so a total of 1.5mA electron current to the
high voltage connection from the cathode*S*.
The high voltage is 25kV, so the impedance seen would be 25000 / .0015 =
16 666 666 Ohm, or 16 MOhm. (mega ohm).

As the electron beam is constantly modulated by the luminance, or in case of
color the RGB signals, the curent varies constantly.
So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage stable
as the laod varies.
A changing high voltage would give a changing picture size for the same
deflection power (magnetic field).
Feedback circuits are used for stabilization.
In the very very old tube color sets, a parallel stabilizer tube was used
(PD100), it had a lot of roentgen radiation too...

Not going to read the rest.

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Man human species, how did it ever get this far.
OK it took some millions of years.
In the lifetime of the current bunch we should have no expectations.
But some did miracles in the previous century.
So maybe there is still hope.

eeh, maybe not.
Sam would say: yes/no that makes 50 percent.
No Sam would not say that..... Ok let Sam peak for himself.

You have wrongly attributed this message to me.
....please apologise or I'll sue.

You can't sue because I am Sue and I am busy
suing Bush for Sue and identity theft.

http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/38/0439099838.jpg

Study your Maxwell's or I'll bite you in half.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node50.html

Sue...


Quote:


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Appropriate message snipping is considerate and painless.
Back to top
Sorcerer1
science forum Guru


Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7a2mv$1sjt$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| news:TXVlg.436524$tc.418352@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| >
| > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:e78ttj$vct$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > |
| > | "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| > | news:wHMlg.200890$8W1.199056@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| > | >
| > | > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > | > news:e77pk6$31kb$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > | >
| > | > | Regarding "Sorcerer's" statement:
| > | > | > It is pretty clear that the speed of light is just like any
| > | > | > other speed, |dx/dt|, Potter.
| > | > |
| > | > | "c", the "speed of light constant" is just that, a constant.
| > | > | It is not a speed.
| > | >
| > | > I say you are ranting incomprehensible nonsense
| > | >
| > | > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
| > | >
| > | > I hereby nominate
| > | > Tom Potter
| > | > as the
| > | >
| > | > **Loudmouth Arsehole of the Month**
| > | >
| > | > Any seconds??????????????????????
| > | >
| > | > It's gonna a close contest, might even come down to the Florida vote
| > | > to decide it.
| > |
| > | It is interesting to see that the best that "Sorcerer"
| > | can respond to my positions
| > | (Tubes have plate resistance.
| >
| > You've never heard of superconductors, Potter?
| > It's cold on the Moon and I wouldn't a need a glass tube
| > to paint a picture, either. I can design a TV for a lunar environment
| > without the tube, and I'm not talking about plasma or LCD display.
| > The tube fullfills three functions, one is to keep air out and the other
| > two are to provide a fixed distance between cathode, anode, field and
| > frame coils.
| > I can use glass rods for the latter and I don't need to consider the
| > first. Electrons go right through a vacuum as if it were not there,
| > which it isn't.
|
| "Sorcerer" raises a good point!

Good grief... someone that listens to reason is a rare find.

|
| Electrons can go through vacuums, and wires, and all kinds of stuff
| like it is not there,
| so obviously, all this stuff doesn't exist!

Facetiousness will not win you any brownie points, Potter, but there
is truth in what you say. The wires and all kinds of stuff are mostly
empty space, the electrons do not go through the nuclei of atoms,
they go around them through the nothing.

|
| But back to the points of contention.
|
| I assert that vacuum tubes have plate resistance,
| and that space has impedance,
| and "Sorcerer" does not.

Assertion carries no weight. The burden of proof is upon the
claimant.
The point of contention isn't plate resistance which can be eliminated
in practice by using a superconductor and in theory by ignoring it as
irrelevant, it is the alleged permittivity and permeability of nothing.
What is the velocity of sound in a vacuum, Potter?
Is it zero, infinity or something in between?
What is the volume of a gas at zero degrees Kelvin?
They are meaningless questions, of course. One can extrapolate,
playing mathematical games, but there is no sound in a vacuum and
there are no gases at zero Kelvin.
Electrical impedance and/or resistance is limitation to current for a
given pressure, resistance being analogous to a pinhole drilled in a
cylindrical mug to limit the flow of coffee leaking onto the table.
By enlarging the hole, the flow is increased. Enlarge it enough and there
is no mug. The entire volume of coffee then falls under the influence
of gravity, independently of the resistance of the mug.
Coffee mugs provide infinite resistance to the flow of coffee
onto your clean shirt, drill the hole and you'll need to launder your
shirt or go without coffee.
Impedance is the equivalent of tilting the mug to drink the coffee,
and is zero when the mug is upside down. The hole at the top
of the mug offers no resistance.
It may be somewhat unpleasant and tasteless to consider spitting the
coffee back into the mug to repeat the cycle, but it can be done in
small quantities. <sputter>

Likewise, the vacuum of space offers no resistance to the flow of
photons or any other projectile, be it electron, bullet, spacecraft, planet
or star.
The photon is a single cycle of finite energy, represented by the green
radial vector in this gif:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/AC.gif
No current passes through the plates of the capacitor.

The velocity of light in independent of the motion of the nothing, Einstein
was a muggle, for it is very much dependent upon the motion of the source.
That the source happens to have little motion compared to the motion of
the photon is irrelevant.

There is no longer any aether, hasn't been since the great sorcerer
Michelson
canned it, and although it once had the properties of mu0 and eps0, those
properties are now in the trashcan along with the aether that owned
them.

You can assert all you want to, Potter, wishful thinking isn't magic.

BTW, my last graduate was a Potter -- Harry Potter. I wonder if you will
do as well as he...
Alas, wizards are hard to find, but you may show promise if you'll
learn real magic before you try to write you own spells. The Wizard
of Menlo Park was not a sorcerer, I hasten to add, and neither was
the Wizard of Oz. It takes work for a wizard to graduate to sorcerer,
impossible for a muggle.
--
Der alte Hexenmeister ist:
Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics
school for zauberlehrlings.
"One muggle's magic is another wizard's engineering"

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Back to top
Sorcerer1
science forum Guru


Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpeatmje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e79h20$t5b$1@news.datemas.de...
| On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:20:25 +0800) it happened "Tom Potter"
| <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in <e7908u$115o$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw>:
|
| >Thanks to "Jan Panteltje" for supporting my position that:
| >"The z from cathode to anode is NOT zero."
| >
| >and that tubes have "plate resistance".
| Yep, and i still learned about triodes with low Ri and penthodes
| with high Ri (current source) in my school days.
|
|
| >But regarding "Jan Panteltje's" comment:
| >"So it makes no sense / has no practical use to speak of an impedance.
| >[The] Electronics is only concerned with keeping the high voltage stable
| >as the laod varies."
| >
| >If the load varies, and the voltage stays constant,
| >the impedance varies.
| >
| >impedance = voltage / current
|
| Yes you are right, but the man was relating to CRTs, and CRTs is what
| I played a lot with, designed my first TV in 1968.
| I have would those deflection coils, and transformers, all good old times,
| people should know about electrostatic and magnetic deflection [of
electron
| beams = charged particles] hands on makes all the difference.
| Design issues are quite tight for a TV CRT actually, you are limited by
| what the HV rectifier / multiplier can do as current, the CRT
characteristics,
| and those are pretty much a known.. so that leaves only to be able to
| create the 25kV and supply the current, and make that 25kV stable (and
| filtering).
| You have E background, so do I, many here do not and just RelaTitvit
along...
| Wink
| E designers almost never enter stupid fights like we see here, learn
| from the others designs, make things that ***have to**** work.
|
Of course we don't, and there should be no fight between us, Jan.
Incidentally, the EHT of 25 kV is derived from the line-output transformer
to make use of the voltage pulse during flyback when the energy is recovered
from the deflection coils, it is a simple matter of efficient design. The
almost
vertical pulse of the triangular waveform is ideal. The alternative is a
specially
designed EHT power supply (which do exist commerically, in particular for
oscilloscopes where flyback isn't always a requirement). I'm sure you've
displayed TV images on an oscilloscope as I have, and that is electrostatic
deflection.

Androcles.




| Nobody buys a TV that only shows 2 light dots, but look how they are
selling
| strings, LIGO, ITER, and all those other things you mentioned.
|
| Regards
| Jan
|
Back to top
tdp1001@gmail.com
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
news:AV8mg.440509$tc.320029@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7a2mv$1sjt$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| news:TXVlg.436524$tc.418352@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
|
| > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:e78ttj$vct$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > |
| > | "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| > | news:wHMlg.200890$8W1.199056@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| > |
| > | > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > | > news:e77pk6$31kb$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > |
| > | > | Regarding "Sorcerer's" statement:
| > | > | > It is pretty clear that the speed of light is just like any
| > | > | > other speed, |dx/dt|, Potter.
| > | > |
| > | > | "c", the "speed of light constant" is just that, a constant.
| > | > | It is not a speed.
| > |
| > | > I say you are ranting incomprehensible nonsense
| > |
| > | > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
| > |
| > | > I hereby nominate
| > | > Tom Potter
| > | > as the
| > |
| > | > **Loudmouth Arsehole of the Month**
| > |
| > | > Any seconds??????????????????????
| > |
| > | > It's gonna a close contest, might even come down to the Florida
vote
| > | > to decide it.
| > |
| > | It is interesting to see that the best that "Sorcerer"
| > | can respond to my positions
| > | (Tubes have plate resistance.
|
| > You've never heard of superconductors, Potter?
| > It's cold on the Moon and I wouldn't a need a glass tube
| > to paint a picture, either. I can design a TV for a lunar environment
| > without the tube, and I'm not talking about plasma or LCD display.
| > The tube fullfills three functions, one is to keep air out and the
other
| > two are to provide a fixed distance between cathode, anode, field and
| > frame coils.
| > I can use glass rods for the latter and I don't need to consider the
| > first. Electrons go right through a vacuum as if it were not there,
| > which it isn't.
|
| "Sorcerer" raises a good point!

Good grief... someone that listens to reason is a rare find.

|
| Electrons can go through vacuums, and wires, and all kinds of stuff
| like it is not there,
| so obviously, all this stuff doesn't exist!

Facetiousness will not win you any brownie points, Potter, but there
is truth in what you say. The wires and all kinds of stuff are mostly
empty space, the electrons do not go through the nuclei of atoms,
they go around them through the nothing.

|
| But back to the points of contention.
|
| I assert that vacuum tubes have plate resistance,
| and that space has impedance,
| and "Sorcerer" does not.

Assertion carries no weight. The burden of proof is upon the
claimant.
The point of contention isn't plate resistance which can be eliminated
in practice by using a superconductor and in theory by ignoring it as
irrelevant, it is the alleged permittivity and permeability of nothing.
What is the velocity of sound in a vacuum, Potter?
Is it zero, infinity or something in between?
What is the volume of a gas at zero degrees Kelvin?
They are meaningless questions, of course. One can extrapolate,
playing mathematical games, but there is no sound in a vacuum and
there are no gases at zero Kelvin.
Electrical impedance and/or resistance is limitation to current for a
given pressure, resistance being analogous to a pinhole drilled in a
cylindrical mug to limit the flow of coffee leaking onto the table.
By enlarging the hole, the flow is increased. Enlarge it enough and there
is no mug. The entire volume of coffee then falls under the influence
of gravity, independently of the resistance of the mug.
Coffee mugs provide infinite resistance to the flow of coffee
onto your clean shirt, drill the hole and you'll need to launder your
shirt or go without coffee.
Impedance is the equivalent of tilting the mug to drink the coffee,
and is zero when the mug is upside down. The hole at the top
of the mug offers no resistance.
It may be somewhat unpleasant and tasteless to consider spitting the
coffee back into the mug to repeat the cycle, but it can be done in
small quantities. <sputter

Likewise, the vacuum of space offers no resistance to the flow of
photons or any other projectile, be it electron, bullet, spacecraft,
planet
or star.
The photon is a single cycle of finite energy, represented by the green
radial vector in this gif:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/AC.gif
No current passes through the plates of the capacitor.

The velocity of light in independent of the motion of the nothing,
Einstein
was a muggle, for it is very much dependent upon the motion of the source.
That the source happens to have little motion compared to the motion of
the photon is irrelevant.

There is no longer any aether, hasn't been since the great sorcerer
Michelson
canned it, and although it once had the properties of mu0 and eps0, those
properties are now in the trashcan along with the aether that owned
them.

You can assert all you want to, Potter, wishful thinking isn't magic.

BTW, my last graduate was a Potter -- Harry Potter. I wonder if you will
do as well as he...
Alas, wizards are hard to find, but you may show promise if you'll
learn real magic before you try to write you own spells. The Wizard
of Menlo Park was not a sorcerer, I hasten to add, and neither was
the Wizard of Oz. It takes work for a wizard to graduate to sorcerer,
impossible for a muggle.
--
Der alte Hexenmeister ist:
Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics
school for zauberlehrlings.
"One muggle's magic is another wizard's engineering"

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Considering that we are in basic agreement,
except on how we view the physical properties,
I'll let it go at that.

I suspect that you and I,
are two of the few folks who understand
that a so-called photon is a SINGLE cycle of,
you say energy, I say action.

No doubt, most of physics can't be extrapolated to absolute zero,
but once "something wonderful happens",
all kinds of properties pop into existence.

--
Tom Potter
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
Back to top
Sorcerer1
science forum Guru


Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

"Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7bfif$2sr1$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
|
| "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| news:AV8mg.440509$tc.320029@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| >
| > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:e7a2mv$1sjt$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > |
| > | "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| > | news:TXVlg.436524$tc.418352@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| > | >
| > | > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > | > news:e78ttj$vct$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > | > |
| > | > | "Sorcerer" <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_a> wrote in message
| > | > | news:wHMlg.200890$8W1.199056@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| > | > | >
| > | > | > "Tom Potter" <tdp1001@gmail.com> wrote in message
| > | > | > news:e77pk6$31kb$1@news.ndhu.edu.tw...
| > | > | >
| > | > | > | Regarding "Sorcerer's" statement:
| > | > | > | > It is pretty clear that the speed of light is just like any
| > | > | > | > other speed, |dx/dt|, Potter.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | "c", the "speed of light constant" is just that, a constant.
| > | > | > | It is not a speed.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > I say you are ranting incomprehensible nonsense
| > | > | >
| > | > | > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
| > | > | >
| > | > | > I hereby nominate
| > | > | > Tom Potter
| > | > | > as the
| > | > | >
| > | > | > **Loudmouth Arsehole of the Month**
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Any seconds??????????????????????
| > | > | >
| > | > | > It's gonna a close contest, might even come down to the Florida
| > vote
| > | > | > to decide it.
| > | > |
| > | > | It is interesting to see that the best that "Sorcerer"
| > | > | can respond to my positions
| > | > | (Tubes have plate resistance.
| > | >
| > | > You've never heard of superconductors, Potter?
| > | > It's cold on the Moon and I wouldn't a need a glass tube
| > | > to paint a picture, either. I can design a TV for a lunar
environment
| > | > without the tube, and I'm not talking about plasma or LCD display.
| > | > The tube fullfills three functions, one is to keep air out and the
| > other
| > | > two are to provide a fixed distance between cathode, anode, field
and
| > | > frame coils.
| > | > I can use glass rods for the latter and I don't need to consider
the
| > | > first. Electrons go right through a vacuum as if it were not there,
| > | > which it isn't.
| > |
| > | "Sorcerer" raises a good point!
| >
| > Good grief... someone that listens to reason is a rare find.
| >
| > |
| > | Electrons can go through vacuums, and wires, and all kinds of stuff
| > | like it is not there,
| > | so obviously, all this stuff doesn't exist!
| >
| > Facetiousness will not win you any brownie points, Potter, but there
| > is truth in what you say. The wires and all kinds of stuff are mostly
| > empty space, the electrons do not go through the nuclei of atoms,
| > they go around them through the nothing.
| >
| > |
| > | But back to the points of contention.
| > |
| > | I assert that vacuum tubes have plate resistance,
| > | and that space has impedance,
| > | and "Sorcerer" does not.
| >
| > Assertion carries no weight. The burden of proof is upon the
| > claimant.
| > The point of contention isn't plate resistance which can be eliminated
| > in practice by using a superconductor and in theory by ignoring it as
| > irrelevant, it is the alleged permittivity and permeability of nothing.
| > What is the velocity of sound in a vacuum, Potter?
| > Is it zero, infinity or something in between?
| > What is the volume of a gas at zero degrees Kelvin?
| > They are meaningless questions, of course. One can extrapolate,
| > playing mathematical games, but there is no sound in a vacuum and
| > there are no gases at zero Kelvin.
| > Electrical impedance and/or resistance is limitation to current for a
| > given pressure, resistance being analogous to a pinhole drilled in a
| > cylindrical mug to limit the flow of coffee leaking onto the table.
| > By enlarging the hole, the flow is increased. Enlarge it enough and
there
| > is no mug. The entire volume of coffee then falls under the influence
| > of gravity, independently of the resistance of the mug.
| > Coffee mugs provide infinite resistance to the flow of coffee
| > onto your clean shirt, drill the hole and you'll need to launder your
| > shirt or go without coffee.
| > Impedance is the equivalent of tilting the mug to drink the coffee,
| > and is zero when the mug is upside down. The hole at the top
| > of the mug offers no resistance.
| > It may be somewhat unpleasant and tasteless to consider spitting the
| > coffee back into the mug to repeat the cycle, but it can be done in
| > small quantities. <sputter>
| >
| > Likewise, the vacuum of space offers no resistance to the flow of
| > photons or any other projectile, be it electron, bullet, spacecraft,
| > planet
| > or star.
| > The photon is a single cycle of finite energy, represented by the green
| > radial vector in this gif:
| > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/AC.gif
| > No current passes through the plates of the capacitor.
| >
| > The velocity of light in independent of the motion of the nothing,
| > Einstein
| > was a muggle, for it is very much dependent upon the motion of the
source.
| > That the source happens to have little motion compared to the motion of
| > the photon is irrelevant.
| >
| > There is no longer any aether, hasn't been since the great sorcerer
| > Michelson
| > canned it, and although it once had the properties of mu0 and eps0,
those
| > properties are now in the trashcan along with the aether that owned
| > them.
| >
| > You can assert all you want to, Potter, wishful thinking isn't magic.
| >
| > BTW, my last graduate was a Potter -- Harry Potter. I wonder if you will
| > do as well as he...
| > Alas, wizards are hard to find, but you may show promise if you'll
| > learn real magic before you try to write you own spells. The Wizard
| > of Menlo Park was not a sorcerer, I hasten to add, and neither was
| > the Wizard of Oz. It takes work for a wizard to graduate to sorcerer,
| > impossible for a muggle.
| > --
| > Der alte Hexenmeister ist:
| > Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics
| > school for zauberlehrlings.
| > "One muggle's magic is another wizard's engineering"
| >
| > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
|
| Considering that we are in basic agreement,
| except on how we view the physical properties,
| I'll let it go at that.
|
| I suspect that you and I,
| are two of the few folks who understand
| that a so-called photon is a SINGLE cycle of,
| you say energy, I say action.
|
| No doubt, most of physics can't be extrapolated to absolute zero,
| but once "something wonderful happens",
| all kinds of properties pop into existence.

Glad to hear it.
100 years ago energy was called "work", which is why the W appears
in http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img157.gif
The shitheads think Einstein found something remarkable, but it was under
anyone's nose the whole time.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/E^2/Energy1.gif

Whether a cannonball uses 'energy' to knock down castle walls,
whether it 'acts' upon them or whether it does 'work' upon them,
it all the same to me. Crystalline dried piss (oops, urine, same thing,
one should always call a spade a shovel for some unknown reason)
makes saltpetre -- saltpetre, coal and brimstone (or sulfer if you are
Americano) makes gunpowder -- gunpowder makes cannonballs work.

The original energy/work/action came from the sun.

Lift a cannonball onto the table, it rolls off, exchanging potential energy
for kinetic energy, does work and breaks your big toe.
You did it to yourself with solar 'action' stored in the food you eat.

I'll not argue semantics with you, it is pointless, but I'd suggest
potential energy (called energy) is what the gunpowder has, action
is what the cannonball in flight has and work is what it does when
it stops. Driving a nail is 'work', it requires 'energy' to make the
hammer 'act', it is constructive to the roof and destructive to the tree.

I will not accept that nothing has properties. Any you may think is has
are of your imagination, not mine.

Stars do not blow themselves to smithereens twice in three months
when it is quite clear to me (and Henri Wilson and Vladimir Sekerin)
that the illusion is caused by slow photons being passed by faster
photons emitted later.

Here is the empirical data:
http://www.britastro.org/vss/gifc/00918-ck.gif
Here is the explanation by Sekerin:
http://www.ebicom.net/~rsf1/sekerin.htm (fig 3)
Here is the explanation by me:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Copernicus.exe

Wilson knows, but he screwed up his programming.

So out goes Einstein, out goes Maxwell's or Lorentz's aether,
come back Newton. Sorry John Goodricke, you were too young
to know what you were doing so you are excused.
Androcles.
Back to top
Henri Wilson
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 3381

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:26:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpeatmje@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:36:43 GMT) it happened HW@..(Henri Wilson)
wrote in <0otg92t7bn5au2hato1n0dm0qirveic7vr@4ax.com>:

You have wrongly attributed this message to me.
....please apologise or I'll sue.

Oh go to hell.
I replied to a text in a posting that was in itself correctly prepended
with

Bullshit.
Your primary reference was to me when it should have been to Androcles.

Quote:



HW.
Idiot
Learn ho to use Usenet.


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Appropriate message snipping is considerate and painless.
Back to top
PD
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

GSS wrote:
Quote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum. For detailed presentation of this notion,
kindly refer to,

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/eps_mu.html

GSS

That's incorrect. The values they have are accidents of the choice of
units.
With a suitable choice of units, those values become either 1 or some
multiple of pi that comes from geometric convenience. There is nothing
in those values that would suggest that the vacuum is a physical medium
for anything.

Remember that in suitable unit system, the speed of light is 1 and
dimensionless.

PD
Back to top
Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: Permittivity and Permeability Constants of Vacuum Reply with quote

In article <1150934759.575727.281730@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, PD
<TheDraperFamily@gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
GSS wrote:
Permittivity (eps_0) and Permeability (mu_0) Constants of Vacuum
represent fundamental characteristics or fundamental properties of the
physical space or vacuum. For detailed presentation of this notion,
kindly refer to,

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/eps_mu.html

GSS

That's incorrect. The values they have are accidents of the choice of
units.
With a suitable choice of units, those values become either 1 or some
multiple of pi that comes from geometric convenience. There is nothing
in those values that would suggest that the vacuum is a physical medium
for anything.

Remember that in suitable unit system, the speed of light is 1 and
dimensionless.

PD


PD

This is the same GSS who doesn't know what proper time or distance are.

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 4 of 5 [65 Posts] Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:05 pm | All times are GMT
Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » Particle
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts troubles in determination of specific surface area(air pe... eos Chem 0 Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:05 am
No new posts troubles in determination of specific surface area(air pe... eos Chem 0 Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:02 am
No new posts Point Defects in Emergent Vacuum ODLRO Geometrodynamics Jack Sarfatti Math 0 Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:52 pm
No new posts Easy Vacuum question inkexit@yahoo.com Physics 2 Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:07 pm
No new posts Theoretical Estimation of Chemical Reaction Rate Constants Squark Research 12 Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:57 am

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Electronics forum |  Medicine forum |  Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums  |  send newsletters
 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0448s ][ Queries: 16 (0.0036s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]