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Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom
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Sorcerer1
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

"tadchem" <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150494724.045757.15430@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| The electron is *not* a wave. The electron is *not* a particle.

I find it somewhat unremarkable that you know what something is *not*.
If I knew what all things were *not* I'd be almost as smart as you.
By the way, an elephant is *not* a whale.
Androcles
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GSS
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

tadchem wrote:
Quote:
GSS wrote:
Current state of Quantum Mechanics does not help us visualize the
instant to instant orbital motion of the electron in Hydrogen atom.
Generally it is asserted that HUP does not permit us to do so. I have
developed a model for instant to instant computation of electron motion
in Hydrogen orbitals under Coulomb forces. I have not accounted for
electron spin interaction in this model. Kindly examine the details at
the following reference. This is essentially to assert the point that
we must strive to acquire enough information about a physical process
or phenomenon that should enable us to mentally visualize that
phenomenon.

You have already gotten a lot of good information (and some
not-so-good) from other posts, so I will only add one little bit.

The electron is *not* a wave. The electron is *not* a particle. Those
are erroneous identifications we give to the electron based on our own
observations of certain aspects of its behavior, by analogy to our
"visualizations" as you put it..

The electron is simply *AN ELECTRON*. To us is *seems* to act like a
particle (sometimes) or a wave (sometimes). All we *really* know is
that it has certain quantum numbers (charge, mass, spin, angular
momentum), some of which themselves are named by poor analogy to other
things we experience.
Tom Davidson

The very fact that we are unable to mentally visualize the 'electron'
shows that we do not have enough information about the 'structure' of
electron. Obviously therefore, we must strive to acquire the missing
information rather than 'shut the doors' by assuming that nothing more
can be known about the electron.

Well, whatever the shape and size of electron, we definitely know that
it possesses a finite amount of energy in a localized region of space
and electrostatic fields are associated with it. Therefore we can
always assume that there will be a center point of the electron which
is the 'center of mass' of the energy distribution in the surrounding
region. Even if the electrostatic field of the electron constitutes a
wave field, we can always trace the motion of the center of electron.
This is precisely what has been done in the subject model after
ensuring that the total energy and momentum of the system are
conserved.

Kindly specify clearly, what exactly is your objection to this model?

GSS
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srp
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

GSS a écrit :
Quote:
tadchem wrote:
GSS wrote:
Current state of Quantum Mechanics does not help us visualize the
instant to instant orbital motion of the electron in Hydrogen atom.
Generally it is asserted that HUP does not permit us to do so. I have
developed a model for instant to instant computation of electron motion
in Hydrogen orbitals under Coulomb forces. I have not accounted for
electron spin interaction in this model. Kindly examine the details at
the following reference. This is essentially to assert the point that
we must strive to acquire enough information about a physical process
or phenomenon that should enable us to mentally visualize that
phenomenon.
You have already gotten a lot of good information (and some
not-so-good) from other posts, so I will only add one little bit.

The electron is *not* a wave. The electron is *not* a particle. Those
are erroneous identifications we give to the electron based on our own
observations of certain aspects of its behavior, by analogy to our
"visualizations" as you put it..

The electron is simply *AN ELECTRON*. To us is *seems* to act like a
particle (sometimes) or a wave (sometimes). All we *really* know is
that it has certain quantum numbers (charge, mass, spin, angular
momentum), some of which themselves are named by poor analogy to other
things we experience.
Tom Davidson

The very fact that we are unable to mentally visualize the 'electron'
shows that we do not have enough information about the 'structure' of
electron. Obviously therefore, we must strive to acquire the missing
information rather than 'shut the doors' by assuming that nothing more
can be known about the electron.

Well, whatever the shape and size of electron, we definitely know that
it possesses a finite amount of energy in a localized region of space
and electrostatic fields are associated with it. Therefore we can
always assume that there will be a center point of the electron which
is the 'center of mass' of the energy distribution in the surrounding
region. Even if the electrostatic field of the electron constitutes a
wave field, we can always trace the motion of the center of electron.
This is precisely what has been done in the subject model after
ensuring that the total energy and momentum of the system are
conserved.

Kindly specify clearly, what exactly is your objection to this model?

GSS

You obviously are a methodical researcher.

Maybe you will be interested in this paper by Paul Marmet on the
magnetic field of the electron

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/magnetic/mass.html

The second part is hypothetical, but the first part definitely is
rock solid.

André Michaud
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GSS
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

srp wrote:
Quote:
GSS a écrit :
tadchem wrote:
GSS wrote:
Current state of Quantum Mechanics does not help us visualize the
instant to instant orbital motion of the electron in Hydrogen atom.
Generally it is asserted that HUP does not permit us to do so. I have
developed a model for instant to instant computation of electron motion
in Hydrogen orbitals under Coulomb forces. I have not accounted for
electron spin interaction in this model. Kindly examine the details at
the following reference. This is essentially to assert the point that
we must strive to acquire enough information about a physical process
or phenomenon that should enable us to mentally visualize that
phenomenon.
You have already gotten a lot of good information (and some
not-so-good) from other posts, so I will only add one little bit.

The electron is *not* a wave. The electron is *not* a particle. Those
are erroneous identifications we give to the electron based on our own
observations of certain aspects of its behavior, by analogy to our
"visualizations" as you put it..

The electron is simply *AN ELECTRON*. To us is *seems* to act like a
particle (sometimes) or a wave (sometimes). All we *really* know is
that it has certain quantum numbers (charge, mass, spin, angular
momentum), some of which themselves are named by poor analogy to other
things we experience.
Tom Davidson

The very fact that we are unable to mentally visualize the 'electron'
shows that we do not have enough information about the 'structure' of
electron. Obviously therefore, we must strive to acquire the missing
information rather than 'shut the doors' by assuming that nothing more
can be known about the electron.

Well, whatever the shape and size of electron, we definitely know that
it possesses a finite amount of energy in a localized region of space
and electrostatic fields are associated with it. Therefore we can
always assume that there will be a center point of the electron which
is the 'center of mass' of the energy distribution in the surrounding
region. Even if the electrostatic field of the electron constitutes a
wave field, we can always trace the motion of the center of electron.
This is precisely what has been done in the subject model after
ensuring that the total energy and momentum of the system are
conserved.

Kindly specify clearly, what exactly is your objection to this model?

GSS

You obviously are a methodical researcher.

Maybe you will be interested in this paper by Paul Marmet on the
magnetic field of the electron

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/magnetic/mass.html

The second part is hypothetical, but the first part definitely is
rock solid.

André Michaud

Yes I generally agree with the overall viewpoint of the author.
The field energy may be considered as 'electromagnetic' rather than
only magnetic in nature. The light waves cannot be considered as a
'longitudinal' wave, it is a transverse wave.
Regarding dynamic mass you may also refer to,
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sandhu/htm_art/inertial_property.html

GSS
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dda1
science forum Guru


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

AssSmell, Gurcharn Sandhu wrote:

<shameless self advertising by Sandhu snipped>
Quote:

GSS

Wrong again, shihead.
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

Sam Wormley wrote:
Quote:
GSS wrote:
Current state of Quantum Mechanics does not help us visualize the
instant to instant orbital motion of the electron in Hydrogen atom.
Generally it is asserted that HUP does not permit us to do so. I have
developed a model for instant to instant computation of electron motion
in Hydrogen orbitals under Coulomb forces. I have not accounted for
electron spin interaction in this model. Kindly examine the details at
the following reference. This is essentially to assert the point that
we must strive to acquire enough information about a physical process
or phenomenon that should enable us to mentally visualize that
phenomenon.


You may be thinking too much like a Newtonian.

Some background to think about

o Photons are massless force carriers for the electromagnetic force
o Pauli Exclusion Principle
o Fine Structure Constant
-------------------------

Hi parrot !!!

Y.Porat
---------------------------
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

In article <1150570117.566718.136420@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
Y.Porat <maporat@012.net.il> wrote:


Quote:
-------------------------
Hi parrot !!!
Low budgerigar?


--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
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Bilge
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

GSS:
Quote:
Current state of Quantum Mechanics does not help us visualize the
instant to instant orbital motion of the electron in Hydrogen atom.

Sure it does. Quantum mechanics tells you explicitly that your
concept of ``instant to instant orbital motion'' does not exist
and is physically meaningless. Your wish that it should exist
does not make it so.

Quote:
Generally it is asserted that HUP does not permit us to do so. I have
developed a model for instant to instant computation of electron motion
in Hydrogen orbitals under Coulomb forces.

What does your model predict for the decay rate of the 2s -> 1s
transition and why? Even simpler, what does your model predict for
selection rules in general and why?

Quote:
I have not accounted for electron spin interaction in this model.

That means you can't explain any atomic phenomena.

Quote:
Kindly examine the details at
the following reference. This is essentially to assert the point that
we must strive to acquire enough information about a physical process
or phenomenon that should enable us to mentally visualize that
phenomenon.

Mentally visualizing a fiction that contradicts the physics does nothing
to elucidate the actual physics. Instead, one ought to strive for a mental
picture that has some relation to the actual physics one is trying to
understand.
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Bilge
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

GSS:
Quote:

Randy Poe wrote:
GSS wrote:
Current state of Quantum Mechanics does not help us visualize the
instant to instant orbital motion of the electron in Hydrogen atom.
Generally it is asserted that HUP does not permit us to do so.

No, generally it is asserted that the electron is not spinning
around in a little orbit, as doing so would violate various
laws of physics (conservation of energy for instance).

- Randy

No, the model is based on the conservation of energy and momentum. I
will appreciate if anyone can point out at least one specific mistake
in this model.

This model predicts that the time taken in the emission process of a
photon is of the order of 10^-16 seconds. Is there any corresponding
figure available either from Quantum Mechanics or from experiments?

The fastest atomic transition rates are probably on the order of 100
times slower than that and those transitions correspond to gamma rays.
In other words, the vast preponderance of atomic transitions have
rates measured in milli, micro and nano seconds with a few of the
highest energy transitions having rates of tens of femto seconds.
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tadchem
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1348

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

Sorcerer wrote:
Quote:
"tadchem" <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150494724.045757.15430@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| The electron is *not* a wave. The electron is *not* a particle.

I find it somewhat unremarkable that you know what something is *not*.

Because the electron can sometimes seem to be a particle, we know that
it is not a wave.
Because the electron can sometimes seem to be a wave, we know that it
is not a particle.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how
improbable, must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle

The so-called 'process of elimination' is a slow method to refine
knowledge, but it is a very useful method for eliminating
misinformation.

Quote:
If I knew what all things were *not* I'd be almost as smart as you.

But you don't, so you aren't, are you? <smirk>

'Clever' counts, too...

Quote:
By the way, an elephant is *not* a whale.

But they have a common ancestor that lived about 50 Mya, so what would
someday evolve into a whale would also someday evolve into an elephant.
http://research.amnh.org/programs/genomelab/cladogram_pages/pages/mammal_cladogram.html
http://research.amnh.org/programs/genomelab/cladogram_pages/pages/cetacean_order.html
http://research.amnh.org/programs/genomelab/cladogram_pages/pages/proboscidean_order.html

You really need to start thinking outside of your box, Andy.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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John Sefton
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

dda1 wrote:
Quote:
AssSmell, Gurcharn Sandhu wrote:

shameless self advertising by Sandhu snipped

GSS

Wrong again, shihead.
http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/ring.GIF
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tadchem
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1348

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

GSS wrote:

Quote:
The very fact that we are unable to mentally visualize the 'electron'
shows that we do not have enough information about the 'structure' of
electron. Obviously therefore, we must strive to acquire the missing
information rather than 'shut the doors' by assuming that nothing more
can be known about the electron.

I agree that more information is needed. I suspect that the
information at this scale will come mainly by inference - that is,
through testing various mathematical models to see which ones will
accommodate all the available data. We know, for example, that the
simplest mathematical model that accommodates the requirements of
Maxwell's Equations is the Lorenz model - a Hamiltonian equation with
arguments that are tensors in Minkowski space. Anything 'simpler'
simply will no do.

I disagree with your use of the word 'structure', however, as it
implies that the electron is a 'structured object' - i.e. an object
composed of several more fundamental objects. As yet there is simply
no evidence for this supposition. We *do* have evidence that an
electron can be converted into a single photon - through interaction
with its 'anti-particle[ the positron which also gets converted into an
identical photon.

I think it would be less presumptive to say rather that "we do not have
enough information about the nature of (the) electron."

Quote:
Well, whatever the shape and size of electron,

Whatever the electron is, we do not even know enough about it to say
that it *has* a 'size' or a 'shape'.

Quote:
we definitely know that
it possesses a finite amount of energy in a localized region of space

"Localized" is again a word that presumes a property for which we have
no evidence. Indeed, there is evidence from QM and from solid state
physics that the electron cannot be 'localized' reliably.

Quote:
and electrostatic fields are associated with it.

That much is true enough. There is a great degree of variability in
the 'shape' of those fields, however.

Quote:
Therefore we can
always assume that there will be a center point of the electron which
is the 'center of mass' of the energy distribution in the surrounding
region.

Not so. An electron in the conduction band of a length of copper wire
running 1000 miles across country on a high voltage line would be
*very* hard to pin down, as would an electron in the conduction band of
a ball of metal such as the earth's core.

Quote:
Even if the electrostatic field of the electron constitutes a
wave field, we can always trace the motion of the center of electron.

....if you can *find* the "center" of the electron. [see above]

Quote:
This is precisely what has been done in the subject model after
ensuring that the total energy and momentum of the system are
conserved.

The 'center point' of an electron in a pi-bonding orbital of a benzene
molecule would be where, exactly? The exact geometric center of all of
the molecular orbitals is a null point - a point with minimum
probability of finding an electron there.

Quote:
Kindly specify clearly, what exactly is your objection to this model?

It is inconsistent with observations - a fatal flaw for any theory.
Your electrons follow curved paths, which requires a force and an
acceleration upon them to maintain the curvature of the path. This
real effect is used routinely in mass spectrometry.

Without a continuous input of energy this will lead to synchrotron
radiation of EM energy. (such radiation has been sought and has never
been observed) and decay of the orbit.

Go back to your books and try again. I recommend some study of
electromagnetic theory at the sophomore level (calculus required)
before you try to wrestly with quantum mechanics again.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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tadchem
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1348

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

GSS wrote:

<snip>

Quote:
Kindly specify clearly, what exactly is your objection to this model?

Your model reprises the failed Rutherford model, aka the "naive
planetary model"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Rutherford

which was briefly replaced by the Bohr model,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model
because "an accelerating electric charge emits electromagnetic waves
which carry energy; thus, with each orbit around the nucleus, the
electron would radiate away a bit of its orbital energy, gradually
spiralling inwards to the nucleus until the atom was no more. A quick
calculation shows that this would happen almost instantly; thus, the
naive planetary theory cannot explain why atoms are extremely
long-lived."

The "naive planetary model" also totally fails to explain atomic
spectra. Does *your* model predict the relatively simple atomic
spectrum of hydrogen?

For various reasons the Bohr model was also found to be inadequate as
was further refined, but the key concept of quantization of angular
momentum remained.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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Sorcerer1
science forum Guru


Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

"tadchem" <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150583975.568267.55110@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
|
| Sorcerer wrote:
| > "tadchem" <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote in message
| > news:1150494724.045757.15430@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| >
| > | The electron is *not* a wave. The electron is *not* a particle.
| >
| > I find it somewhat unremarkable that you know what something is *not*.
|
| Because the electron can sometimes seem to be a particle, we know that
| it is not a wave.
| Because the electron can sometimes seem to be a wave, we know that it
| is not a particle.
|
| "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how
| improbable, must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle

Yes, well... Conan Doyle was also a spiritualist, but the key word you used
was "seem". That's a far cry from "not".
To some people light seems to have a wavelength, but it doesn't.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/photonwave.gif
The green wave is static, it only shows where the photon has been.


| The so-called 'process of elimination' is a slow method to refine
| knowledge, but it is a very useful method for eliminating
| misinformation.

Sure, and misinformation is what modern physics thrives on, using concepts
such as wavelength for an oscillator.


| > If I knew what all things were *not* I'd be almost as smart as you.
|
| But you don't, so you aren't, are you? <smirk>
|
| 'Clever' counts, too...

Oh, I'm sure I can manage to tell you what anything you care to name is
*not*.


|
| > By the way, an elephant is *not* a whale.
|
| But they have a common ancestor that lived about 50 Mya, so what would
| someday evolve into a whale would also someday evolve into an elephant.

That doesn't change the fact that an elephant is *not* a whale.



|
http://research.amnh.org/programs/genomelab/cladogram_pages/pages/mammal_cladogram.html
|
http://research.amnh.org/programs/genomelab/cladogram_pages/pages/cetacean_order.html
|
http://research.amnh.org/programs/genomelab/cladogram_pages/pages/proboscidean_order.html
|
| You really need to start thinking outside of your box, Andy.

I'm way outside your little sandbox, Tommy. You need to wake up and
smell the roses before you tell me they are *not* bowling balls.
Androcles.
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tadchem
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1348

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:34 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Reply with quote

Sorcerer wrote:

Quote:
| > By the way, an elephant is *not* a whale.
|
| But they have a common ancestor that lived about 50 Mya, so what would
| someday evolve into a whale would also someday evolve into an elephant.

That doesn't change the fact that an elephant is *not* a whale.

http://www.volvox.co.jp/marine/cat/e03000/hp02898e.html

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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