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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
science forum Guru

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

 Quote: mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu: In article , schultr@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) writes: In sci.physics.particle tadchem tadchem@comcast.net> wrote: [...] With all due respect to Feynman, said "explanation" is more a matter of personal preferences than anything solid. In fact, any such explanation is mostly a matter of semantics unless we've at our disposal the following: 1) A *rigorous* definition of the properties of "particle", and ditto for "wave". 2) The two definitions above being mutually exclusive. Actually, that is straight forward to do. A particle is an eigenstate of the number operator with an eigenvalue of 1, hence the particle number is well-defined. A wave is a state with well-defined relative phases and therefore cannot be an eigenstate of the number operator. The particle number is therefore indeterminate. Since there is an uncertainty relation between the number operator and the phase, measurements of these states are mutually exclusive. Well, this is a legitimate way of doing it and I'm perfectly willing

to buy it. Note, though, that this is far removed from the classical
notions of particle and wave and has little to do with what those
people talking about "it is sometimes a particle and sometimes a wave"
mean. But, yes, it is clean cut and mutually exclusive, even if not
exhaustive.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:04:05 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley
<swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in <9QHlg.38216$No1.20205@attbi_s71>:  Quote: Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:30:25 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in : Some background to think about o Photons are massless force carriers for the electromagnetic force Why drive people crazy? Photon is a wave. OK, this is too much, but this 500 pound American did eat a whole bottle of slimline pills, floated away, next time they make it to the moon they will bring him back. Anytime ---anybody--- says 'massless' (not mathless, we know that ) for a 'particle' we know we are being conned. I'm reposting this just for you Jan... to help it sink in! Susskind: "The photon is very exceptional. It is the only particle, other than the graviton [if it exists], that has no mass. What if it were less exceptional and had mass? Feynman's theory tells us how to compute the force when a hypothetical massive photon jumps between nucleus and electron. What one finds is that the heavier the photon, the less it is able to jump. Were the photon mass even a tiny fraction of the electron mass, instead of being a long-range force, electric interactions would become short-range "flypaper forces," totally incapable of holding the distant valence electrons. Atoms, molecules, and life [including Jan Panteltje] are entirely dependent on the curious fact that the photon has no mass". Hi Sammy, this is issue (2) of the sme thing. Believe it or not repeating it more times will NOt make it more true. No matter who wrote it originally. Light is a wave, photons are a fragment of EinStein = One Stone = One Stone, the great particle thinker. Try thinking for yourself some day. Jan Panteltje science forum Guru Wannabe Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 295 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:57:27 GMT) it happened dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net (Bilge) wrote in <slrne9eltm.fv3.dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net>:  Quote: Photon is a wave. Since the photon is a quantum, not a classical thing,'' the only definition it has comes from quantum mechanics and in quantum mechanics, quantum objects have wavelike properties and particle like properties. What is so difficult about this concept? [...] Anytime ---anybody--- says 'massless' (not mathless, we know that ) for a 'particle' we know we are being conned. Spoken like a true con. I'll tell you what. You post a derivation of maxwell's starting with any theory which has a massive photon and I'll believe you. Why, photons as particle does not exists. You prove your own follies! avergon@verizon.net science forum Guru Wannabe Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 282 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom  Quote: In article , dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net (Bilge) writes: mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu: In article , schultr@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) writes: In sci.physics.particle tadchem tadchem@comcast.net> wrote: [...] With all due respect to Feynman, said "explanation" is more a matter of personal preferences than anything solid. In fact, any such explanation is mostly a matter of semantics unless we've at our disposal the following: 1) A *rigorous* definition of the properties of "particle", and ditto for "wave". 2) The two definitions above being mutually exclusive. Actually, that is straight forward to do. A particle is an eigenstate of the number operator with an eigenvalue of 1, hence the particle number is well-defined. A wave is a state with well-defined relative phases and therefore cannot be an eigenstate of the number operator. The particle number is therefore indeterminate. Since there is an uncertainty relation between the number operator and the phase, measurements of these states are mutually exclusive. Well, this is a legitimate way of doing it and I'm perfectly willing to buy it. Note, though, that this is far removed from the classical notions of particle and wave and has little to do with what those people talking about "it is sometimes a particle and sometimes a wave" mean. But, yes, it is clean cut and mutually exclusive, even if not exhaustive. Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" vergon I have written a post in this thread describing the relation between the electron and photon. I apologise for apparently not dealing directly with the wave/particle question. It is there but not too apparent because it is an excerpt from a larger paper entitled On the Quantum as a Physical Entity. In my post I speak of "the quantum" and its density. The single quantum is extremely tenuous, i.e., is extremely low in density. It also expands and contracts indefinitely because it has no internal friction. Due to this tenousness, when the agglomeration is not too great (in the photon mode) it responds to superposition and manifests as waves. In greater agglomerations, the density is greater and the photon becomes more particle-like. Increasing the density further (to where the mass is 1.02 MeV ) and the photon transforms into an electron and positron. Be aware, this interpretation is far different than the typical QM description. My personal belief is that QM in its present form is much like the six blind men examinig the elephant --- one perceived it as a rope, another as a tree, another as snake, etc. My inclination is to regard physics ultimately in the model mode. I like a clear physical picture of nature. Math is a tool, not an end. Sam Wormley science forum Guru Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 1491 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Jan Panteltje wrote:  Quote: On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:04:05 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in <9QHlg.38216$No1.20205@attbi_s71>: Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:30:25 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in : Some background to think about o Photons are massless force carriers for the electromagnetic force Why drive people crazy? Photon is a wave. OK, this is too much, but this 500 pound American did eat a whole bottle of slimline pills, floated away, next time they make it to the moon they will bring him back. Anytime ---anybody--- says 'massless' (not mathless, we know that ) for a 'particle' we know we are being conned. I'm reposting this just for you Jan... to help it sink in! Susskind: "The photon is very exceptional. It is the only particle, other than the graviton [if it exists], that has no mass. What if it were less exceptional and had mass? Feynman's theory tells us how to compute the force when a hypothetical massive photon jumps between nucleus and electron. What one finds is that the heavier the photon, the less it is able to jump. Were the photon mass even a tiny fraction of the electron mass, instead of being a long-range force, electric interactions would become short-range "flypaper forces," totally incapable of holding the distant valence electrons. Atoms, molecules, and life [including Jan Panteltje] are entirely dependent on the curious fact that the photon has no mass". Hi Sammy, this is issue (2) of the sme thing. Believe it or not repeating it more times will NOt make it more true. No matter who wrote it originally. Light is a wave, photons are a fragment of EinStein = One Stone = One Stone, the great particle thinker. Try thinking for yourself some day.

Having thought about it... there is a need to put a name to the
mathematics describing the force carier between charge particles.
The entity really is a mathematical construct, and we can measure
its physical characteristics in the lab... so it has reality.

Perhaps you, Jan, would like to name such an entity a "nonphoton".
http://universe-review.ca/I15-55-Feynman.jpg
Y.Porat
science forum Guru

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

Sam Wormley wrote:
 Quote: Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:04:05 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in <9QHlg.38216$No1.20205@attbi_s71>: Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:30:25 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in : OK, this is too much, but this 500 pound American did eat a whole bottle of slimline pills, floated away, next time they make it to the moon they will bring him back. Anytime ---anybody--- says 'massless' (not mathless, we know that ) for a 'particle' we know we are being conned. I'm reposting this just for you Jan... to help it sink in! and life [including Jan Panteltje] are entirely dependent on the curious fact that the photon has no mass". Hi Sammy, this is issue (2) of the sme thing. Believe it or not repeating it more times will NOt make it more true. No matter who wrote it originally. Light is a wave, photons are a fragment of EinStein = One Stone = One Stone, the great particle thinker. Try thinking for yourself some day. Having thought about it... there is a need to put a name to the mathematics describing the force carier between charge particles. The entity really is a mathematical construct, and we can measure its physical characteristics in the lab... so it has reality. Perhaps you, Jan, would like to name such an entity a "nonphoton". http://universe-review.ca/I15-55-Feynman.jpg --------------------------------- it is certianly not a photon becuae a photon moves in straight lines ans as such cannot do any attraction forc!! better try the Circlon: the basic particle that moves naturally in circular path (unless disturbed on its way and then reteats or deviated from its orriginal path ) ATB Y.Porat ---------------------- Jan Panteltje science forum Guru Wannabe Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 295 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:00:20 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in <oYUlg.39077$No1.13510@attbi_s71>:

 Quote: Having thought about it... there is a need to put a name to the mathematics describing the force carier between charge particles. The entity really is a mathematical construct, and we can measure its physical characteristics in the lab... so it has reality. Perhaps you, Jan, would like to name such an entity a "nonphoton". http://universe-review.ca/I15-55-Feynman.jpg

Hi Sam, yes I am familiar with Feynman diagram.
It is tricky stuff, light, I do not claim I know how it works, just that the
wave idea for light (=EM waves) always worked for me.
Has then (!) photon-photon scattering already given some results?

According to
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod1.html#c2
middle page,
all 'cept photo electric effect can be explained with waves, I think
I got that phhoto elctric effect explained with waves, but did not
do the math, your field, why bother with particles.
Bilge
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

Jan Panteltje:

 Quote: Why, photons as particle does not exists.

Since I've counted photons in HPGe detectors in coincidence with
positrons in scintillators, from nuclear \beta decay, I know for a
fact that you are wrong.
Y.Porat
science forum Guru

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

The only thing in our universe that has no mass is

Y.Porat
----------------------
Sam Wormley wrote:
 Quote: Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:30:25 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley , and life [including Jan Panteltje] are entirely dependent on the curious fact that the photon has no mass".
dda1
science forum Guru

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762

 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom Y.Porat wrote: Yassir, you crapped you pants again , you little palestinian
Y.Porat
science forum Guru

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

dda1 wrote:
 Quote: Y.Porat wrote: snipped, too idiotic Yassir, you crapped you pants again , you little palestinian -------------

Hi Nazi bump parasite s**t
what is your day job ??? who is feeding a dirty pigg like you ??
you are not good even fo rmeat (
----------------

------------------------
T Wake
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1978

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

"Y.Porat" <maporat@012.net.il> wrote in message
 Quote: dda1 wrote: Y.Porat wrote: snipped, too idiotic Yassir, you crapped you pants again , you little palestinian ------------- Hi Nazi bump parasite s**t what is your day job ??? who is feeding a dirty pigg like you ?? you are not good even fo rmeat (

Baby fr0th. Porat must try harder.
Jan Panteltje
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 295

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

On a sunny day (Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:22:24 GMT) it happened

 Quote: Jan Panteltje: Why, photons as particle does not exists. Since I've counted photons in HPGe detectors in coincidence with positrons in scintillators, from nuclear \beta decay, I know for a fact that you are wrong.

You are so wise.
dda1
science forum Guru

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

Y.Porat wrote:
 Quote: dda1 wrote: Y.Porat wrote: snipped, too idiotic Yassir, you crapped you pants again , you little palestinian ------------- Hi Nazi bump parasite s**t what is your day job ??? who is feeding a dirty pigg like you ?? you are not good even fo rmeat ( ---------------- ------------------------

Yassir, you crapped you pants again , you little palestinian
Y.Porat
science forum Guru

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Orbits in Hydrogen atom

dda1 wrote:
 Quote: Y.Porat wrote: snipped, too idiotic Yassir, you crapped you pants again , you little palestinian -----------------------------

disturbed paradites bumps of the world --- *unite ** !!!!!!
(what is your day job ???)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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