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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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Finder
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

"greysky" <greysky@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Pggkg.148043$F_3.50096@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:

"Finder" <poe1kdifhtsadf@sdfse2gwerzxc.com> wrote in message
news:44916a9d$0$79450$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...


Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.

Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!

I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.

It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a
big problem with gravitational theory.



Bullpuppy.

It travels 236,520,000 in one year, and it is within 0.000338% of expected.

The mass of the sun is not known to that precision, nor the mass of the
spacecraft.
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Llanzlan Klazmon
science forum addict


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

ca314159 <ca314159@bestweb.net> wrote in
news:44915189.6FBF5A55@bestweb.net:

Quote:
Joe Jakarta wrote:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B
7F0000

"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.

"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.

"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."

(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)

Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.

They don't have any. They are RTG powered.

Klazmon.
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

Dear Rising-Star8471:

"Rising-Star8471" <j.a.lively@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150392152.215380.4620@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
....
Quote:
Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge
of the solar system would have been undetectable
by the voyager series.

PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down......

But not with the same rate. *If* the two probes speeds are
different by 10%, and the density of dust is the same along the
two paths, and the dust velocity radially outwards is zero, then
the acceleration due to the impulse difference should be along
the lines of 19%. But it is not.

....
Quote:
But we can say what its not.......

Its NOT a planet
Its NOT a star
Its NOT a moon
Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar
orbit (.)
It CANNOT be an object in which the solar
system is bound.

Yes, it could be an orbitting halo of Dark Matter. But that
means that every planet starting with/after Jupiter would be
funkey.

Quote:
If it is gravity, then the probe should have been
deflected off course, I have not seen any data
indicating this.

An anomalous sunward acceleration (ASA) *is* like gravity, and
the ASA *is* indicated by the data.

Quote:
Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned
possiblites would have only effected ONE of the
probes (Although I think of the trojen asteriods
trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again
these objects are in orbit and not traveling in a
straight line)

What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space?

Dust
Gas
Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon)
cosmic rays?

A sunward-facing solar sail (aka. radio dish) with a hot
power-plant behind it providing net-sunward thrust. Present in
all craft. Intensity of the Solar output falls off by 1/r^2
(outward on the sail), and the radioactive source falls off
1/(e^kt) (reduces inward on the sail).

Quote:
Im going to stick with dust ........

Contraindicated. Even if the dust were slightly outbound, the
differential impulse would be greater (and more would be required
to provide the acceleration detected). And if the dust were
inbound, the acceleration is then wrong and abother cause needs
to be sought.

David A. Smith
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

Dear George:

"George" <george@wtfiswrongwithyou.com> wrote in message
news:Z9adnXcttKnLwgzZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
Quote:

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com
wrote in message news:64dkg.33850$AB3.658@fed1read02...
Dear ca314159:

"ca314159" <ca314159@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:44915189.6FBF5A55@bestweb.net...
Joe Jakarta wrote:
...
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.

Did these spacecraft (Pioner 10 and 11) even have
solar panels? They were built for "outer system"
work, and solar panels would be useless.

I thought they had radioactive isotope power generators.

They did. But a quick glimpse didn't show anything that said
they didn't also have solar panels. But why they'd have
something onboard that would fail by Jupiter doesn't make sense
to me.

David A. Smith
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Tom Roberts
science forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1399

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

Finder wrote:
Quote:
Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!

Yes, indeed.

Quote:
I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.

_They_ can measure to much better than that. I don't recall their
resolution, but a search of arXiv.org will surely find it. Remember they
are using the propagation of radio waves to measure it, not a series of
meter sticks laid end-to-end (Smile).


Tom Roberts
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George11
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:jKmkg.33862$AB3.11690@fed1read02...
Quote:
Dear George:

"George" <george@wtfiswrongwithyou.com> wrote in message
news:Z9adnXcttKnLwgzZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@insightbb.com...

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:64dkg.33850$AB3.658@fed1read02...
Dear ca314159:

"ca314159" <ca314159@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:44915189.6FBF5A55@bestweb.net...
Joe Jakarta wrote:
...
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.

Did these spacecraft (Pioner 10 and 11) even have
solar panels? They were built for "outer system"
work, and solar panels would be useless.

I thought they had radioactive isotope power generators.

They did. But a quick glimpse didn't show anything that said they didn't
also have solar panels. But why they'd have something onboard that would
fail by Jupiter doesn't make sense to me.

David A. Smith

None of the available images and diagrams show solar panels on these craft.
Like this one, for instance:

http://quest.nasa.gov/sso/cool/pioneer10/graphics/lasher/slide2lg.gif

George
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Jerry
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 574

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Quote:
Dear Rising-Star8471:

"Rising-Star8471" <j.a.lively@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150392152.215380.4620@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
...
Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge
of the solar system would have been undetectable
by the voyager series.

PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down......

But not with the same rate. *If* the two probes speeds are
different by 10%, and the density of dust is the same along the
two paths, and the dust velocity radially outwards is zero, then
the acceleration due to the impulse difference should be along
the lines of 19%. But it is not.

...
But we can say what its not.......

Its NOT a planet
Its NOT a star
Its NOT a moon
Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar
orbit (.)
It CANNOT be an object in which the solar
system is bound.

Yes, it could be an orbitting halo of Dark Matter. But that
means that every planet starting with/after Jupiter would be
funkey.

If it is gravity, then the probe should have been
deflected off course, I have not seen any data
indicating this.

An anomalous sunward acceleration (ASA) *is* like gravity, and
the ASA *is* indicated by the data.

Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned
possiblites would have only effected ONE of the
probes (Although I think of the trojen asteriods
trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again
these objects are in orbit and not traveling in a
straight line)

What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space?

Dust
Gas
Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon)
cosmic rays?

A sunward-facing solar sail (aka. radio dish) with a hot
power-plant behind it providing net-sunward thrust. Present in
all craft. Intensity of the Solar output falls off by 1/r^2
(outward on the sail), and the radioactive source falls off
1/(e^kt) (reduces inward on the sail).

Im going to stick with dust ........

Contraindicated. Even if the dust were slightly outbound, the
differential impulse would be greater (and more would be required
to provide the acceleration detected). And if the dust were
inbound, the acceleration is then wrong and abother cause needs
to be sought.

Does there have to be -one- explanation? Maybe the difficulty
in determining the cause is that there are -multiple- causes.

Jerry
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CWatters
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

"Richard Saam" <rdsaam@att.net> wrote in message
news:g_dkg.28280$mF2.6841@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Quote:
Summary Motion data:

Pioneer 10 about 28,000 mph 1,250,000 cm/sec (sun reference)
Pioneer 11 about 26,000 mph 1,160,000 cm/sec (sun reference)
with deceleration for both at (8.74 1.33) x 10^(-Cool cm/sec2
(5.99 0.01) x 10^(-9) Hz/s
and the pioneer spacecraft rotational spin rates
Pioneer 10 about 4 rpm (2,581 cm/sec tip speed)
Pioneer 11 about 7 rpm (4,517 cm/sec tip speed)
with deceleration for both at .0067 rpm/year
Moment of inertia = 5.88E9 g cm^2
Mass = 241,000 gram
Area = 58,965 cm2


Logically
It can be concluded that
deceleration is independent of observation coordinate

Ok so I've no idea what I'm talking about really but....

If spacetime were quantized would energy be required to move objects between
each quantum "position"? Could that be the cause... a bit like driving over
a cobbled road? Would that explain why the effect is independant of the
coordinate system?

Would it be hard to calculate the scale of the effect on that basis? Can it
be ruled out because of the effect it would have on some other branch of
physics if it existed?
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Martin Hogbin
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

"Joe Jakarta" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1150370385.368099.144290@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000

"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions.

"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps.

Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

My money is still on something in the spacecraft.

Martin Hogbin
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Orion
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

If the sun is some kind of force field it will explain the sunward
acceleration.
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

Dear Jerry:

"Jerry" <Cephalobus_alienus@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150431809.311639.21810@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Rising-Star8471:
....
Im going to stick with dust ........

Contraindicated. Even if the dust were slightly
outbound, the differential impulse would be
greater (and more would be required to provide
the acceleration detected). And if the dust
were inbound, the acceleration is then wrong
and abother cause needs to be sought.

Does there have to be -one- explanation? Maybe
the difficulty in determining the cause is that
there are -multiple- causes.

As in all else, there are multiple causes. So placing all faith
in "dust", or in "solar sail", is a waste of time.

Good point.

David A. Smith
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

Dear CWatters:

"CWatters" <colin.watters@turnersNOSPAMoak.plus.net> wrote in
message
news:44925eac$0$69385$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
....
Quote:
If spacetime were quantized would energy be
required to move objects between each
quantum "position"? Could that be the cause...
a bit like driving over a cobbled road? Would
that explain why the effect is independant of
the coordinate system?

Why does it only affect these satellites? The planets that
travel cross streets to these "cobblestone roads" don't have any
problems.

Any "quantized space" model will have to agree with all
experimental data, and that includes other objects at similar
distances NOT showing an anomalous sunward acceleration.

David A. Smith
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

Dear George:

"George" <george@wtfiswrongwithyou.com> wrote in message
news:m7ednaNc87ktrQ_ZnZ2dnUVZ_qednZ2d@insightbb.com...
Quote:

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com
wrote in message news:jKmkg.33862$AB3.11690@fed1read02...
....
I thought they had radioactive isotope power
generators.

They did. But a quick glimpse didn't show
anything that said they didn't also have solar
panels. But why they'd have something
onboard that would fail by Jupiter doesn't
make sense to me.

None of the available images and diagrams
show solar panels on these craft. Like this
one, for instance:

http://quest.nasa.gov/sso/cool/pioneer10/graphics/lasher/slide2lg.gif

Thanks! Of course, this shoots my "solar sail" hypothesis in the
foot, since the thermopile is not shadowed by the radio dish
pointed at the Sun...

David A. Smith
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kenseto
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2151

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

"Joe Jakarta" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1150370385.368099.144290@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F00

00
Quote:

"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.

"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.

"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."

(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)


Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

The paths of Pioneer 10 and 11 are affected by the concentrations of dark
matter within the sun and the planets. Since the sun conntains the greatest
concentration of dark matter that's why the probes are found to be
accelerating toward to the sun. The following link describes this effect in
details (pages 14 and 15):
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2005Unification.pdf

Ken Seto
>
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George Dishman
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 963

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous Reply with quote

"Rising-Star8471" <j.a.lively@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150387215.704254.238530@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
....
Quote:
Then I would have to go with dust. It appears that they are both
traveling the plane of the eclipic, where as the voyagers are both far
above and far below the ecliptic. Its possible that the solar system
still has dust rings beyond the orbit of Neptune that are leftovers
from planetry development. We woulnt neccisarly notice from here
because this dust would have always there to us, We dont have a "dust
free: enviroment to compare the observations to. This would also
explain why it happened to both probes, and the following body of mass
theroy. The probe is still plowing through the dust. When its speed
stablizes, it will have gone through the other side.

The effect of dust as a drag on the craft has been
considered and is too small. The gravitation effect
of the total mass of the dust in the Kuiper Belt
region is shown in Figure 15.

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0104064

They also consider the effect of dust on the RTG fins
changing the emission characteristics to create an
imbalance in emissivity preferentially radiating heat
away from the craft and a hypothetical interaction of
the dust with the radio signal causing a frequency
change without affecting the motion of the craft. The
anomaly remains unexplained.

George
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