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George Dishman
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 963

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

"Richard Saam" <rdsaam@att.net> wrote in message
news:g_dkg.28280\$mF2.6841@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
 Quote: The Primary data set may be viewed at: Study of the Pioneer Anomaly: A Problem Set Slava G. Turyshev, Michael Martin Nieto, and John D. Anderson (Dated: September 6, 2005) http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0502123 Summary Motion data: Pioneer 10 about 28,000 mph 1,250,000 cm/sec (sun reference) Pioneer 11 about 26,000 mph 1,160,000 cm/sec (sun reference) with deceleration for both at (8.74 ± 1.33) x 10^(- cm/sec2 (5.99 ± 0.01) x 10^(-9) Hz/s

And most importantly both directed towards the Sun
even though the craft are leaving in almost opposite
directions. See figure 3 of:

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0104064

 Quote: and the pioneer spacecraft rotational spin rates Pioneer 10 about 4 rpm (2,581 cm/sec tip speed) Pioneer 11 about 7 rpm (4,517 cm/sec tip speed) with deceleration for both at .0067 rpm/year Moment of inertia = 5.88E9 g cm^2 Mass = 241,000 gram Area = 58,965 cm2 Logically It can be concluded that deceleration is independent of observation coordinate

The coordinates don't matter, what is important is
that the direction of the anomalous acceleration
does depend on the location of the craft in some
way. The Pioneers are accelerating in opposite
directions, both towards the central solar system.
This rules out certain ideas, such as interstellar
dust which predominantly passes through the Solar
System in a particular direction, and hence should
accelerate both craft in the same direction.

 Quote: force points toward the sun and also force points toward Earth and also force points in the direction of motion and also force points along the spin axis of the probes and also (an important point not noted by Anderson et al) force points along the rotation tip angular direction of the probes Perhaps analysis of archival data will show this more clearly.

Hopefully, but those directions are all within a few
degrees so are hard to separate. In particular the
spin axis and direction to Earth had to be kept with
about 1 degree so that the planet stayed in the beam
width of the antenna.

George
George Dishman
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 963

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

"CWatters" <colin.watters@turnersNOSPAMoak.plus.net> wrote in message
 Quote: "Richard Saam" wrote in message news:g_dkg.28280\$mF2.6841@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... Summary Motion data: Pioneer 10 about 28,000 mph 1,250,000 cm/sec (sun reference) Pioneer 11 about 26,000 mph 1,160,000 cm/sec (sun reference) with deceleration for both at (8.74 ± 1.33) x 10^(- cm/sec2 (5.99 ± 0.01) x 10^(-9) Hz/s and the pioneer spacecraft rotational spin rates Pioneer 10 about 4 rpm (2,581 cm/sec tip speed) Pioneer 11 about 7 rpm (4,517 cm/sec tip speed) with deceleration for both at .0067 rpm/year Moment of inertia = 5.88E9 g cm^2 Mass = 241,000 gram Area = 58,965 cm2 Logically It can be concluded that deceleration is independent of observation coordinate Ok so I've no idea what I'm talking about really but.... If spacetime were quantized would energy be required to move objects between each quantum "position"? Could that be the cause... a bit like driving over a cobbled road? Would that explain why the effect is independant of the coordinate system?

Only if the road was at rest with respect to the solar
system and the cobbles produced drag. If the cobbles
were at rest wrt the galaxy, both Pioneers would show
an acceleration in a direction opposing the Sun's
motion orbiting the galaxy.

 Quote: Would it be hard to calculate the scale of the effect on that basis? Can it be ruled out because of the effect it would have on some other branch of physics if it existed?

Such a drag would make it difficult for galaxies to
exist as stars would lose their orbital speed and
fall into the centre. The same would apply to the
planets if the 'cobbles' were attached to the Sun.

George
CWatters
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 120

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
 Quote: Dear CWatters: "CWatters" wrote in message news:44925eac\$0\$69385\$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net... ... If spacetime were quantized would energy be required to move objects between each quantum "position"? Could that be the cause... a bit like driving over a cobbled road? Would that explain why the effect is independant of the coordinate system? Why does it only affect these satellites? The planets that travel cross streets to these "cobblestone roads" don't have any problems.

Oh well so much for that idea.

Can the "no effect on planets" argument also be used to rule out wacky ideas
about the speed of light changing?
Richard Saam
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

 Quote: Dear CWatters: "CWatters" wrote in message news:44925eac\$0\$69385\$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net... ... If spacetime were quantized would energy be required to move objects between each quantum "position"? Could that be the cause... a bit like driving over a cobbled road? Would that explain why the effect is independant of the coordinate system? Why does it only affect these satellites? The planets that travel cross streets to these "cobblestone roads" don't have any problems. Any "quantized space" model will have to agree with all experimental data, and that includes other objects at similar distances NOT showing an anomalous sunward acceleration. David A. Smith

The idea cannot be dismissed on those terms.
If Area to Mass ratio of object is considered
there is a possibility of
small object "pioneer" (large area to mass)
interacting with some type of field with measurable effect
and
large object "planet" (small area to mass)
interacting with some type of field with immeasurable effect.

small object's "rocks and such of Pioneer size" trajectories
where the Pioneer ventures
cannot be measured from earth.

Even then, a rock (~meter diameter) may differ considerably in Area to Mass
with Pioneer like the difference between
a bowling ball (smaller area to mass)
and soccer ball (larger area to mass).

Perhaps an analogy would be the difference in dropping
lead and aluminum balls of same size in water.
Stokes' law and all that.

Richard
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Dear CWatters:

"CWatters" <colin.watters@turnersNOSPAMoak.plus.net> wrote in
message
 Quote: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)"

Wacky ideas are never stopped by facts. Sort of like
neutrinos... they just sail on, in orbit, to be encounterd over
and over.

David A. Smith
Too Many Kooks Spoil the1
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 402

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Joe Jakarta wrote:
 Quote: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000 "Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes, it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."

Rough data for Pioneer 11 indicate that

"The anomalous acceleration was present ... at shorter distances, as
far in as ~10 AU.

"... also ... that the anomaly may be much smaller at distances < 10
AU. It appears to be amplified (or turned on) at a distance of ~10 AU
from the Sun. This is approximately when the craft flew by Saturn and
entered an hyperbolic, escape trajectory."

gr-qc/0503021
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:28:29 GMT (392kb)
A Route to Understanding of the Pioneer Anomaly
Authors: Slava G. Turyshev, Michael Martin Nieto, John D. Anderson
George Dishman
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 963

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

 Quote: "greysky" wrote in message news:Pggkg.148043\$F_3.50096@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... "Finder" wrote in message news:44916a9d\$0\$79450\$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting. Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent! I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a big problem with gravitational theory. Bullpuppy. It travels 236,520,000 in one year, and it is within 0.000338% of expected. The mass of the sun is not known to that precision, nor the mass of the spacecraft.

The anomaly is a linear variation of speed from the
trajectory which is the best fit to the data. Any
adjustment to the mass (strictly the GM product) for
the Sun would have an effect that varied as the
inverse square of the distance instead of proportional
to distance which is what is observed.

George
John C. Polasek
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 321

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 18:25:01 +0100, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@turnersNOSPAMoak.plus.net> wrote:

 Quote: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in message news:Bfykg.33882\$AB3.13711@fed1read02... Dear CWatters: "CWatters" wrote in message news:44925eac\$0\$69385\$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net... ... If spacetime were quantized would energy be required to move objects between each quantum "position"? Could that be the cause... a bit like driving over a cobbled road? Would that explain why the effect is independant of the coordinate system? Why does it only affect these satellites? The planets that travel cross streets to these "cobblestone roads" don't have any problems. Oh well so much for that idea. Can the "no effect on planets" argument also be used to rule out wacky ideas about the speed of light changing?

Oh the speed of light does change. It's the idea that time can be
stretched or squashed that's wacky.
JP
Yslsl
science forum beginner

Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

 Quote: The paths of Pioneer 10 and 11 are affected by the concentrations of dark matter within the sun and the planets. Since the sun conntains the greatest concentration of dark matter that's why the probes are found to be accelerating toward to the sun. The following link describes this effect in details (pages 14 and 15): http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2005Unification.pdf

The dark matter hypothesis sounds reasonable to me.
While the nature of dark matter remains unknown (at least to my
knowledge), there is growing evidence for its existance and little
doubt that it clumps in gravitational fields. And the amount of dark
matter out there is huge - it accounts for a substantial part of the
galaxys total mass. When leaving a cloud of the dark matter without
being aware of it, you'd experience an unexpected slowing force
starting at its border. This force is not present as long as you'd be
within a more or less homogenuous dark matter field.
Is there any hypothesis on the spread of the suns or a planets dark
matter halo, maybe derived from other galaxys rotational curves?
George Dishman
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 963

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

"Yslsl" <thomas.feser@gmail.com> wrote in message
 Quote: The paths of Pioneer 10 and 11 are affected by the concentrations of dark matter within the sun and the planets. Since the sun conntains the greatest concentration of dark matter that's why the probes are found to be accelerating toward to the sun. The following link describes this effect in details (pages 14 and 15): http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2005Unification.pdf The dark matter hypothesis sounds reasonable to me.

The usual problem applies though, why does the
gravitational effect of the DM affect the craft
but not the planets, moons, asteroids etc.? Such
simple explanations don't work.

George
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Dear George Dishman:

"George Dishman" <george@briar.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e73tv1\$g2h\$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
 Quote: "Yslsl" wrote in message news:1150632510.588859.56670@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... .... The dark matter hypothesis sounds reasonable to me. The usual problem applies though, why does the gravitational effect of the DM affect the craft but not the planets, moons, asteroids etc.? Such simple explanations don't work.

I'll attempt an argument at why this is so. If Dark Matter were
located within some shell* that the Pioneers (and others)
crossed, then the period of the planets would be too slow for the
radius of their orbit. The period is inclusive of both the
orbitting body's mass, and the mass of every other body within
its orbit.

[*] the "shell" would not have to be spherical. It could be a
toroid, or even some of the odd shapes of atomic p, d, etc
orbitals.

David A. Smith
George Dishman
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 963

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
 Quote: Dear George Dishman: "George Dishman" wrote in message news:e73tv1\$g2h\$1@news.freedom2surf.net... "Yslsl" wrote in message news:1150632510.588859.56670@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... ... The dark matter hypothesis sounds reasonable to me. The usual problem applies though, why does the gravitational effect of the DM affect the craft but not the planets, moons, asteroids etc.? Such simple explanations don't work. I'll attempt an argument at why this is so. If Dark Matter were located within some shell* that the Pioneers (and others) crossed, then the period of the planets would be too slow for the radius of their orbit.

Assuming we calculated GM from the inner planets,
wouldn't the period for the outer planets be too
short? Anyway, again the key question is why
aren't the periods wrong in realtion to the

 Quote: The period is inclusive of both the orbitting body's mass, and the mass of every other body within its orbit.

Does the period of Pluto's orbit change when it
crosses the orbit of Neptune if they are on
opposite sides of the solar system at the time?

 Quote: [*] the "shell" would not have to be spherical. It could be a toroid, or even some of the odd shapes of atomic p, d, etc orbitals.

Starting with the idea of a uniform spherical shell,
the orbits of those planets inside would show one
value for GM of the Sun while those outside would
have a slightly higher value since the shell is
equivalent to a point mass at the centre. Pioneer
would switch from one value to the other giving an
inverse square error starting as it passed through
the shell.

Other shapes would produce similar results expect
possibly close to the shell. To get an anomaly in
the form of a constant acceleration, you need an
ever-increasing mass inside the craft's location.
It should be possible to find a function for mean
density versus radius that would produce the
observed anomaly. The question then is whether
credible rules for the gravitational interaction
of DM particles with each other and with the mass
of the Sun could result in such a distribution.

George
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Dear George Dishman:

"George Dishman" <george@briar.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e7473g\$lh7\$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
 Quote: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in message news:e73tv1\$g2h\$1@news.freedom2surf.net... "Yslsl" wrote in message news:1150632510.588859.56670@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... ... The dark matter hypothesis sounds reasonable to me. The usual problem applies though, why does the gravitational effect of the DM affect the craft but not the planets, moons, asteroids etc.? Such simple explanations don't work. I'll attempt an argument at why this is so. If Dark Matter were located within some shell* that the Pioneers (and others) crossed, then the period of the planets would be too slow for the radius of their orbit. Assuming we calculated GM from the inner planets, wouldn't the period for the outer planets be too short?

If the mass within their orbit were higher, the period *should*
be shorter, given the observed radius of their orbits. The
period observed is longer than this, or in agreement with there
not being additional mass in the solar system.

 Quote: Anyway, again the key question is why aren't the periods wrong in realtion to the radius?

Because there is no Dark Matter in the solar system. That isn't
(essentially) co-located with known bodies.

 Quote: The period is inclusive of both the orbitting body's mass, and the mass of every other body within its orbit. Does the period of Pluto's orbit change when it crosses the orbit of Neptune if they are on opposite sides of the solar system at the time?

It should. But then with an elliptical orbit, the highest speeds
occur on perihelion. It should be a tiny bit slower if Neptune
is located on the same side of the Sun as Pluto passes
"inside"...

 Quote: [*] the "shell" would not have to be spherical. It could be a toroid, or even some of the odd shapes of atomic p, d, etc orbitals. Starting with the idea of a uniform spherical shell, the orbits of those planets inside would show one value for GM of the Sun while those outside would have a slightly higher value since the shell is equivalent to a point mass at the centre. Pioneer would switch from one value to the other giving an inverse square error starting as it passed through the shell. Other shapes would produce similar results expect possibly close to the shell. To get an anomaly in the form of a constant acceleration, you need an ever-increasing mass inside the craft's location.

Why "ever increasing"? If there were a single "step" in GM...

 Quote: It should be possible to find a function for mean density versus radius that would produce the observed anomaly. The question then is whether credible rules for the gravitational interaction of DM particles with each other and with the mass of the Sun could result in such a distribution.

The problem is, the anomalous acceleration is different values
for different (types of) craft, and started at different
distances from the Sun. Now a moving DM could do that, but not
yield a constant anomalous acceleration on its own.

David A. Smith
Too Many Kooks Spoil the1
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 402

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

CWatters wrote:
 Quote: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in message news:Bfykg.33882\$AB3.13711@fed1read02... Dear CWatters: "CWatters" wrote in message news:44925eac\$0\$69385\$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net... ... If spacetime were quantized would energy be required to move objects between each quantum "position"? Could that be the cause... a bit like driving over a cobbled road? Would that explain why the effect is independant of the coordinate system? Why does it only affect these satellites? The planets that travel cross streets to these "cobblestone roads" don't have any problems. Oh well so much for that idea. Can the "no effect on planets" argument also be used to rule out wacky ideas about the speed of light changing?

Just for the record. Are there *wacky* ideas about the speed of light
changing, and *sensible* ideas about the speed of light changing?
Too Many Kooks Spoil the1
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 402

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

George Dishman wrote:
 Quote: "Finder" wrote in message news:4491da27\$0\$15591\$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... "greysky" wrote in message news:Pggkg.148043\$F_3.50096@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... "Finder" wrote in message news:44916a9d\$0\$79450\$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting. Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent! I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a big problem with gravitational theory. Bullpuppy. It travels 236,520,000 in one year, and it is within 0.000338% of expected. The mass of the sun is not known to that precision, nor the mass of the spacecraft. The anomaly is a linear variation of speed from the trajectory which is the best fit to the data. Any adjustment to the mass (strictly the GM product) for the Sun would have an effect that varied as the inverse square of the distance instead of proportional to distance which is what is observed. George

EM waves vary according to an inverse-first-power law.

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