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Message |
Too Many Kooks Spoil the
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 402
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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:19 am Post subject:
Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen? |
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ca314159
science forum beginner
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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Joe Jakarta wrote:
| Quote: |
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
|
1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels. |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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Dear ca314159:
"ca314159" <ca314159@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:44915189.6FBF5A55@bestweb.net...
| Quote: | Joe Jakarta wrote:
....
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.
|
Did these spacecraft (Pioner 10 and 11) even have solar panels?
They were built for "outer system" work, and solar panels would
be useless.
David A. Smith |
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George
science forum beginner
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
|
|
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:64dkg.33850$AB3.658@fed1read02...
| Quote: | Dear ca314159:
"ca314159" <ca314159@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:44915189.6FBF5A55@bestweb.net...
Joe Jakarta wrote:
...
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.
Did these spacecraft (Pioner 10 and 11) even have solar panels? They were
built for "outer system" work, and solar panels would be useless.
David A. Smith
|
I thought they had radioactive isotope power generators.
George |
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Rising-Star8471
science forum beginner
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
|
|
Joe Jakarta wrote:
| Quote: | http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
|
Ill Take an unobserved gravitational influence on the craft for 1000
Alex.....
Ill be honest, my math skills stop with alegbra and I have a feeling
that my skills are no match for the scope of what Im about to
postilate, however, someone with better skills then myself should be
able to crunch the numbers.
Here are the facts as I understand them:
1. Probe traveling at 27,000 miles per hour
2. John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from
as
far back as 1980.
3. Probe falls 8000 miles short as to where it is supposed to be
The only other time Ive seen scientist question there calculations on
this level was when Uranus was not where it was supposed to be. We all
know how that turned out. Is it possible that there could be an
unobeserved planet or maybe even something smaller like a kuiper belt
object that could have "peturbed" its tragectory? Nothing as big as a
Star, not this close to Sol, but something non the less.
The problem is, if it is another planet or moon or whatever, then I
would imagine that the probe would have been more then just slowed
down. I would think a curve, even if its only a slight one would be
applied to its tragectory throwing the probe WAY off its preconcived
course. Even if the probe approched the anomoly "head on" and just
missed it, I would think that it course would still be slightly
deflected.
So what does that leave us with?
Well, one common source for slowing things down is friction. Theres not
a hell of a lot of stuff in the spaces in between planets, but could
the probe have passed through a dust cloud that we cannot detect from
here? Dust could cause friction that could slow it down.
I also thought that perhaps the solar wind itself is deflecting of the
heliosheath and catching the solar panels and acting like an "air
brake", but I would think that the two voyagers would have detected and
experianced the same speed changes. Although, Pioneer 11 is on a more
direct approched to the "bow shock". Perhaps an outside influence
pentrated the bow shock and is slowing it down.
Star |
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Rising-Star8471
science forum beginner
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
|
|
Joe Jakarta wrote:
| Quote: | http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
|
Ill Take an unobserved gravitational influence on the craft for 1000
Alex.....
Ill be honest, my math skills stop with alegbra and I have a feeling
that my skills are no match for the scope of what Im about to
postilate, however, someone with better skills then myself should be
able to crunch the numbers.
Here are the facts as I understand them:
1. Probe traveling at 27,000 miles per hour
2. John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from
as
far back as 1980.
3. Probe falls 8000 miles short as to where it is supposed to be
The only other time Ive seen scientist question there calculations on
this level was when Uranus was not where it was supposed to be. We all
know how that turned out. Is it possible that there could be an
unobeserved planet or maybe even something smaller like a kuiper belt
object that could have "peturbed" its tragectory? Nothing as big as a
Star, not this close to Sol, but something non the less.
The problem is, if it is another planet or moon or whatever, then I
would imagine that the probe would have been more then just slowed
down. I would think a curve, even if its only a slight one would be
applied to its tragectory throwing the probe WAY off its preconcived
course. Even if the probe approched the anomoly "head on" and just
missed it, I would think that it course would still be slightly
deflected.
So what does that leave us with?
Well, one common source for slowing things down is friction. Theres not
a hell of a lot of stuff in the spaces in between planets, but could
the probe have passed through a dust cloud that we cannot detect from
here? Dust could cause friction that could slow it down.
I also thought that perhaps the solar wind itself is deflecting of the
heliosheath and catching the solar panels and acting like an "air
brake", but I would think that the two voyagers would have detected and
experianced the same speed changes. Although, Pioneer 11 is on a more
direct approched to the "bow shock". Perhaps an outside influence
pentrated the bow shock and is slowing it down.
Star |
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|
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George
science forum beginner
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
|
|
"Rising-Star8471" <j.a.lively@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150378161.744985.131370@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Joe Jakarta wrote:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
Ill Take an unobserved gravitational influence on the craft for 1000
Alex.....
Ill be honest, my math skills stop with alegbra and I have a feeling
that my skills are no match for the scope of what Im about to
postilate, however, someone with better skills then myself should be
able to crunch the numbers.
Here are the facts as I understand them:
1. Probe traveling at 27,000 miles per hour
2. John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from
as
far back as 1980.
3. Probe falls 8000 miles short as to where it is supposed to be
The only other time Ive seen scientist question there calculations on
this level was when Uranus was not where it was supposed to be. We all
know how that turned out. Is it possible that there could be an
unobeserved planet or maybe even something smaller like a kuiper belt
object that could have "peturbed" its tragectory? Nothing as big as a
Star, not this close to Sol, but something non the less.
|
What are the chances that that has happened to both spacecraft travelling
in different directions? Any explanation has to take into account that
both craft have been affected.
George |
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Rising-Star8471
science forum beginner
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
|
|
Rising-Star8471 wrote:
| Quote: | Joe Jakarta wrote:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
Ill Take an unobserved gravitational influence on the craft for 1000
Alex.....
Ill be honest, my math skills stop with alegbra and I have a feeling
that my skills are no match for the scope of what Im about to
postilate, however, someone with better skills then myself should be
able to crunch the numbers.
Here are the facts as I understand them:
1. Probe traveling at 27,000 miles per hour
2. John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from
as
far back as 1980.
3. Probe falls 8000 miles short as to where it is supposed to be
The only other time Ive seen scientist question there calculations on
this level was when Uranus was not where it was supposed to be. We all
know how that turned out. Is it possible that there could be an
unobeserved planet or maybe even something smaller like a kuiper belt
object that could have "peturbed" its tragectory? Nothing as big as a
Star, not this close to Sol, but something non the less.
The problem is, if it is another planet or moon or whatever, then I
would imagine that the probe would have been more then just slowed
down. I would think a curve, even if its only a slight one would be
applied to its tragectory throwing the probe WAY off its preconcived
course. Even if the probe approched the anomoly "head on" and just
missed it, I would think that it course would still be slightly
deflected.
So what does that leave us with?
Well, one common source for slowing things down is friction. Theres not
a hell of a lot of stuff in the spaces in between planets, but could
the probe have passed through a dust cloud that we cannot detect from
here? Dust could cause friction that could slow it down.
I also thought that perhaps the solar wind itself is deflecting of the
heliosheath and catching the solar panels and acting like an "air
brake", but I would think that the two voyagers would have detected and
experianced the same speed changes. Although, Pioneer 11 is on a more
direct approched to the "bow shock". Perhaps an outside influence
pentrated the bow shock and is slowing it down.
Star
|
Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have any idea
what the mass of an unseen object would have to be to cause the speed
discrepincy?
Star again |
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Orion
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 115
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
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Probably plasma or radiation. |
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Finder
science forum beginner
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
|
|
|
"Rising-Star8471" <j.a.lively@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1150378587.021685.158070@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Rising-Star8471 wrote:
Joe Jakarta wrote:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
Ill Take an unobserved gravitational influence on the craft for 1000
Alex.....
Ill be honest, my math skills stop with alegbra and I have a feeling
that my skills are no match for the scope of what Im about to
postilate, however, someone with better skills then myself should be
able to crunch the numbers.
Here are the facts as I understand them:
1. Probe traveling at 27,000 miles per hour
2. John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from
as
far back as 1980.
3. Probe falls 8000 miles short as to where it is supposed to be
The only other time Ive seen scientist question there calculations on
this level was when Uranus was not where it was supposed to be. We all
know how that turned out. Is it possible that there could be an
unobeserved planet or maybe even something smaller like a kuiper belt
object that could have "peturbed" its tragectory? Nothing as big as a
Star, not this close to Sol, but something non the less.
The problem is, if it is another planet or moon or whatever, then I
would imagine that the probe would have been more then just slowed
down. I would think a curve, even if its only a slight one would be
applied to its tragectory throwing the probe WAY off its preconcived
course. Even if the probe approched the anomoly "head on" and just
missed it, I would think that it course would still be slightly
deflected.
So what does that leave us with?
Well, one common source for slowing things down is friction. Theres not
a hell of a lot of stuff in the spaces in between planets, but could
the probe have passed through a dust cloud that we cannot detect from
here? Dust could cause friction that could slow it down.
I also thought that perhaps the solar wind itself is deflecting of the
heliosheath and catching the solar panels and acting like an "air
brake", but I would think that the two voyagers would have detected and
experianced the same speed changes. Although, Pioneer 11 is on a more
direct approched to the "bow shock". Perhaps an outside influence
pentrated the bow shock and is slowing it down.
Star
Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have any idea
what the mass of an unseen object would have to be to cause the speed
discrepincy?
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Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.
Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!
I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. |
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Richard Saam
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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Joe Jakarta wrote:
| Quote: | http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB6BE-A7BA-1330-A54583414B7F0000
"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.
"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.
"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."
(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?
Gentlemen |
The Primary data set may be viewed at:
Study of the Pioneer Anomaly:
A Problem Set Slava G. Turyshev,
Michael Martin Nieto,
and John D. Anderson
(Dated: September 6, 2005)
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0502123
Summary Motion data:
Pioneer 10 about 28,000 mph 1,250,000 cm/sec (sun reference)
Pioneer 11 about 26,000 mph 1,160,000 cm/sec (sun reference)
with deceleration for both at (8.74 ± 1.33) x 10^(- cm/sec2
(5.99 ± 0.01) x 10^(-9) Hz/s
and the pioneer spacecraft rotational spin rates
Pioneer 10 about 4 rpm (2,581 cm/sec tip speed)
Pioneer 11 about 7 rpm (4,517 cm/sec tip speed)
with deceleration for both at .0067 rpm/year
Moment of inertia = 5.88E9 g cm^2
Mass = 241,000 gram
Area = 58,965 cm2
Logically
It can be concluded that
deceleration is independent of observation coordinate
or other words
force points toward the sun
and also
force points toward Earth
and also
force points in the direction of motion
and also
force points along the spin axis of the probes
and also (an important point not noted by Anderson et al)
force points along the rotation tip angular direction of the probes
Perhaps analysis of archival data will show this more clearly.
Richard |
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Jeff Root
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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Rising-Star8471 asked:
| Quote: | Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have
any idea what the mass of an unseen object would have to be
to cause the speed discrepincy?
|
The mass depends on its distance from Pioneer. A larger
mass would be farther away; a smaller one would be closer.
But the mass would have to be fairly small or it would
affect other bodies in the Solar System. It doesn't.
Also, since the effect on the spacecraft was constant for
more than a decade, the masses would have to be following
the spacecraft at a constant distance behind them. The
masses would have to be approximately in line between the
Earth and the spacecraft, a short distance behind them.
And since the Pioneers were slowing down, in order to
maintain a constant distance, the masses would have to
be slowing down, too.
-- Jeff, in Minneapolis |
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Rising-Star8471
science forum beginner
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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Jeff Root wrote:
| Quote: | Rising-Star8471 asked:
Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have
any idea what the mass of an unseen object would have to be
to cause the speed discrepincy?
The mass depends on its distance from Pioneer. A larger
mass would be farther away; a smaller one would be closer.
But the mass would have to be fairly small or it would
affect other bodies in the Solar System. It doesn't.
Also, since the effect on the spacecraft was constant for
more than a decade, the masses would have to be following
the spacecraft at a constant distance behind them. The
masses would have to be approximately in line between the
Earth and the spacecraft, a short distance behind them.
And since the Pioneers were slowing down, in order to
maintain a constant distance, the masses would have to
be slowing down, too.
-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
|
Then I would have to go with dust. It appears that they are both
traveling the plane of the eclipic, where as the voyagers are both far
above and far below the ecliptic. Its possible that the solar system
still has dust rings beyond the orbit of Neptune that are leftovers
from planetry development. We woulnt neccisarly notice from here
because this dust would have always there to us, We dont have a "dust
free: enviroment to compare the observations to. This would also
explain why it happened to both probes, and the following body of mass
theroy. The probe is still plowing through the dust. When its speed
stablizes, it will have gone through the other side.
Star |
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greysky
science forum beginner
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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"Finder" <poe1kdifhtsadf@sdfse2gwerzxc.com> wrote in message
news:44916a9d$0$79450$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
| Quote: |
Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.
Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!
I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.
It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a |
big problem with gravitational theory.
Greysky |
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Rising-Star8471
science forum beginner
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
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greysky wrote:
| Quote: | "Finder" <poe1kdifhtsadf@sdfse2gwerzxc.com> wrote in message
news:44916a9d$0$79450$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.
Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!
I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.
It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a
big problem with gravitational theory.
Greysky
|
OK OK jeeeeezzzze Ill turn the tractor beam off already.......all ya
had to do was ask ;)
208000 miles total, is it still slowing down or has the speed
stablized, if it stablized, then when.
Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge of the solar system
would have been undetectable by the voyager series.
PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down......
I dont think its bad math on NASAs part simply because once upon a time
it was moving at a certain rate with nonthing detectable that would
slow it down. That factor has changed. Something HAS interacted with it
to slow it down, we just dont know what.
But we can say what its not.......
Its NOT a planet
Its NOT a star
Its NOT a moon
Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar orbit (.)
It CANNOT be an object in which the solar system is bound. If it is
gravity, then the probe should have been deflected off course, I have
not seen any data indicating this.
Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned possiblites would have
only effected ONE of the probes (Although I think of the trojen
asteriods trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again these objects
are in orbit and not traveling in a straight line)
What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space?
Dust
Gas
Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon)
cosmic rays?
Im going to stick with dust ........
We have observed dust "rings" (not to be confused with spherical clouds
of debri) around other stars in nature, why not our own? Perhaps its
this very dust that obscures our view of the center of the galaxy, and
not dust from the spiral arm as some beilive?.
Of course, the probe could have been reprogrammed in transit by another
life form to "seek out its creator" and now its slowing down to turn
around and come home :)
Star |
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