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PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT.
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

In article <1150992050.310579.256480@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Vert
<avergon@verizon.net> wrote:

Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

Personal derogatory remarks will be ignored.


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.htm
l

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
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dda1
science forum Guru


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vertner Vergon the Persistent Ass wrote:
<snipped>

You are sucking your dick again Verty. Your momma will spank you when
she catches you.
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Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vert wrote:
Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

Personal derogatory remarks will be ignored.

QED. Pure and simple. Learn it or shut up.
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Eric Gisse
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1999

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vert wrote:
Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

1) http://pdg.lbl.gov/2005/tables/gxxx.pdf

2) You are an idiot.

Quote:

Personal derogatory remarks will be ignored.
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dda1
science forum Guru


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vert wrote:
Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
take this, cunt hole:


A limit on the photon mass can be obtained through satellite
measurements of planetary magnetic fields. The Charge Composition
Explorer spacecraft was used to derive a limit of 6x10^-16 eV with high
certainty. This was slightly improved in 1998 by Roderic Lakes in a
laborartory experiment which looked for anomalous forces on a Cavendish
balance. The new limit is 6x10^-17 eV. See here:

http://pdg.lbl.gov/2005/tables/gxxx.pdf

Studies of galactic magnetic fields suggest a much better limit of less
than 3x10^-27 eV but there is some doubt about the validity of this
method. References: E. Fischbach et al., Physical Review Letters, 73,
514-517 25 July 1994.

Now IF the photon had mass, its value would be m0=(hf)/c^2 With
h=4.13x10^-15 eV*s, f=7*10^14 s^-1, c=3x10^8 m/s it follows that m0
would be of the order of 3x10^-17. Since the experimental limits are
already close to this number the conclusion is forgone. Yet another way
at looking at the formula: the left hand side member is , as per
experiment, variable (it converges slowly to zero). The right hand side
member is made out of universal constants. The photon has no mass.
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PD
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vert wrote:
Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

Personal derogatory remarks will be ignored.

There is no *proof* that the photon is massless. That is up to
experiment, and experiment says that the mass is consistent with zero
with a very, very, very, very small error bar. As a result, most
theoretical models neglect the mass of the photon, which as it turns
out, does not cause any serious problems. If future experiments would
determine that there is a small, nonzero mass of the photon, the
theoretical model would have to be altered to accomodate a small mass.
This also would not cause any serious problems (massive gauge bosons
certainly exist in a renormalizable field theory), though it would have
some interesting implications which could then be put to further
experimental test. This is a tale that has been told recently in the
case of neutrinos, which were once treated theoretically as though they
were massless, though no theorist threw himself from a 12th-story
window when it turned out they are not.

There is, however, no experimental evidence for a *nonzero* photon
mass, and there isn't any theoretical necessity for a massive photon.

PD
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Dirk Van de moortel
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 3019

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

"PD" <TheDraperFamily@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1151013869.916429.162790@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Vert wrote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

Personal derogatory remarks will be ignored.

And so will the following:

Quote:

There is no *proof* that the photon is massless. That is up to
experiment, and experiment says that the mass is consistent with zero
with a very, very, very, very small error bar. As a result, most
theoretical models neglect the mass of the photon, which as it turns
out, does not cause any serious problems. If future experiments would
determine that there is a small, nonzero mass of the photon, the
theoretical model would have to be altered to accomodate a small mass.
This also would not cause any serious problems (massive gauge bosons
certainly exist in a renormalizable field theory), though it would have
some interesting implications which could then be put to further
experimental test. This is a tale that has been told recently in the
case of neutrinos, which were once treated theoretically as though they
were massless, though no theorist threw himself from a 12th-story
window when it turned out they are not.

There is, however, no experimental evidence for a *nonzero* photon
mass, and there isn't any theoretical necessity for a massive photon.

For some strange reason however, for a certain kind of
breed, there seems to be a strong psycho(patho)logical
necessity for a massive photon.

Dirk Vdm
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

In article <C1Fmg.497575$fg4.12311691@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, Dirk Van
de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote:


Quote:
For some strange reason however, for a certain kind of
breed, there seems to be a strong psycho(patho)logical
necessity for a massive photon.

Dirk Vdm



Did you get my email about GSS not knowing proper time and distance? I
thought it was worth a fumble.....

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
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Dirk Van de moortel
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 3019

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddleduck@googlemail.com_NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:220620062344546434%phineaspuddleduck@googlemail.com_NOSPAM...
Quote:
In article <C1Fmg.497575$fg4.12311691@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, Dirk Van
de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote:


For some strange reason however, for a certain kind of
breed, there seems to be a strong psycho(patho)logical
necessity for a massive photon.

Dirk Vdm



Did you get my email about GSS not knowing proper time and distance? I
thought it was worth a fumble.....

Ha yes, GSS...
I n ever look at his messages.
Quantité négligeable :-)

Dirk Vdm
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

In article <m6Fmg.497581$gX4.12416069@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, Dirk Van
de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddleduck@googlemail.com_NOSPAM> wrote in
message
news:220620062344546434%phineaspuddleduck@googlemail.com_NOSPAM...
In article <C1Fmg.497575$fg4.12311691@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, Dirk Van
de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote:


For some strange reason however, for a certain kind of
breed, there seems to be a strong psycho(patho)logical
necessity for a massive photon.

Dirk Vdm



Did you get my email about GSS not knowing proper time and distance? I
thought it was worth a fumble.....

Ha yes, GSS...
I n ever look at his messages.
Quantité négligeable :-)

Dirk Vdm



http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/e99671de25231852

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics. Please pay no attention to my butt poking
forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
Back to top
Bilge
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:23 am    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vert:
Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.

You - for example.

Quote:
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.

You - for example.

Quote:
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

You - for example.

Quote:
Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

You - for example.

Quote:
They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and massless
photons.

Only because the experimental evidence suggests that is the case
and no physical principles exclude it.

Quote:
Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I can be as specific as you are capable of understanding. However,
you aren't very capable of understanding and you are unwilling to do
even the minimum anount of work required to discuss the subject comp-
etently.

Quote:
I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

I say that I don't really care what you believe, since neither
I nor anyone else can educate someone who refuses to educate himself.
Trying to discuss something like the photon mass with you is like
michael schumacher trying to discuss a Formula 1 car with a caveman.

Quote:
Personal derogatory remarks will be ignored.

How does that differ from any other remarks anyone makes?
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Tom Roberts
science forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1399

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

Vert wrote:
Quote:
I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.

The fact that the predictions of QED for numerous phenomena agree with
experiments, in some cases to the fantastic accuracy of a few parts per
billion. This has been used to put an experimental upper bound on the
mass of the photon of 6*10^-17 eV/c^2.

In QED the photon is massless; exactly.

Note also that in modern physics the definition of the word "photon"
comes from QED.


Tom Roberts
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

"Vert" <avergon@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1150992050.310579.256480@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and
massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

The problem (your confusion?) stems from how a photon is defined in QED.
In the "particle" viewpoint, I doubt that it can be proven that a photon
has no mass. But all experimental evidence so far points to a massless
photon. And in QED there is no theoretical "need" for a photon to have
mass. In our Quantum Vacuum Charge relativistic medium scenario,
photons are required to be massless as they are more like a "wavicle".
Any mass is in the medium and a photon is just a "concentrated"
energy-momentum flow thru the medium. In this kind of picture it is
easy to see that photons are massless and why there can be a quantum
object with no mass. Even "bare" fermions in our scenario are thought
to be massless much like in the Standard Model. They obtain their
masses from interaction with the quantum vacuum.

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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mluttgens@wanadoo.fr
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote:
"Vert" <avergon@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1150992050.310579.256480@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and
massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

The problem (your confusion?) stems from how a photon is defined in QED.
In the "particle" viewpoint, I doubt that it can be proven that a photon
has no mass. But all experimental evidence so far points to a massless
photon. And in QED there is no theoretical "need" for a photon to have
mass. In our Quantum Vacuum Charge relativistic medium scenario,
photons are required to be massless as they are more like a "wavicle".
Any mass is in the medium and a photon is just a "concentrated"
energy-momentum flow thru the medium. In this kind of picture it is
easy to see that photons are massless and why there can be a quantum
object with no mass. Even "bare" fermions in our scenario are thought
to be massless much like in the Standard Model. They obtain their
masses from interaction with the quantum vacuum.

Is there a fundamental difference between "a "concentrated"
energy-momentum flow"
and a mass?

Marcel Luttgens


Quote:

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: PHOTON MASS -- A FACT. MASSLESS PARTICLES -- NOT FACT. Reply with quote

<mluttgens@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:1151068124.296886.128430@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

FrediFizzx wrote:
"Vert" <avergon@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1150992050.310579.256480@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
There are a lot of people on this NG that don't know their back
end
from a hole in the ground.
Then there are others whose thinking process is like a tossed
salad.
They come up with stupid statements, assumptions, and cannot back
them
up.

Good logic and good facts don't phase them. They are hopeless.

They *believe* there are such things as massless particles and
massless
photons.

Asked to back up there belief, they come up with vague statements
or
erroneous proof and refuse to accept evidence that they are wrong.

I hereby offer a challenge to anyone competent to prove to me that
the
photon has no mass.
So what say you?

The problem (your confusion?) stems from how a photon is defined in
QED.
In the "particle" viewpoint, I doubt that it can be proven that a
photon
has no mass. But all experimental evidence so far points to a
massless
photon. And in QED there is no theoretical "need" for a photon to
have
mass. In our Quantum Vacuum Charge relativistic medium scenario,
photons are required to be massless as they are more like a
"wavicle".
Any mass is in the medium and a photon is just a "concentrated"
energy-momentum flow thru the medium. In this kind of picture it is
easy to see that photons are massless and why there can be a quantum
object with no mass. Even "bare" fermions in our scenario are
thought
to be massless much like in the Standard Model. They obtain their
masses from interaction with the quantum vacuum.

Is there a fundamental difference between "a "concentrated"
energy-momentum flow"
and a mass?

In the case of a single photon, yes. That is if we are talking about
rest mass. Even though we have E = mc^2, it mainly just means that mass
units can be used to express energy and like-wise. But energy and mass
are not the same thing. I read papers all the time that use the concept
of photon mass in their arguments. But a photon should have zero rest
mass and from a theoretical standpoint, there is no reason why it should
have any rest mass, IMHO.

FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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