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takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture
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Pooh Bear
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:

Quote:
The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

No that's simply not true. It's propaganda put around by naysayers.

Graham
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Frank11
science forum beginner


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

Pooh Bear wrote:
Quote:
a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:

The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

No that's simply not true. It's propaganda put around by naysayers.

Graham

No - Archy is basically correct. Net energy gain is very low or maybe
negative. Brazil probably does a better job than we do and sells
ethanol cheaper but we cannot import it because of large tax, thanks to
the likes of ADM, who was the main briber of politicians of both
parties to get us into this mess.

Although, I think he is mistaken that ethanol boasts octane. I heard
MBTE does this but not ethanol.

Also, something I never see addressed, is that in fermentation, for
every molecule of ethanol generated, there is a molecule of carbon
dioxide, the dreaded greenhouse gas.
Where does it go?

Frank
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Phil1157
science forum addict


Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

I was under the impression EtOH raises octane rating by forming EtO*
radicals during burning? But to a lesser extent than ether

"Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote in message
news:1150632001.942461.19010@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:

The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

No that's simply not true. It's propaganda put around by naysayers.

Graham

No - Archy is basically correct. Net energy gain is very low or maybe
negative. Brazil probably does a better job than we do and sells
ethanol cheaper but we cannot import it because of large tax, thanks to
the likes of ADM, who was the main briber of politicians of both
parties to get us into this mess.

Although, I think he is mistaken that ethanol boasts octane. I heard
MBTE does this but not ethanol.

Also, something I never see addressed, is that in fermentation, for
every molecule of ethanol generated, there is a molecule of carbon
dioxide, the dreaded greenhouse gas.
Where does it go?

Frank
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Pooh Bear
science forum addict


Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

Frank wrote:

Quote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:

The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

No that's simply not true. It's propaganda put around by naysayers.

Graham

No - Archy is basically correct. Net energy gain is very low or maybe
negative.

Read some more up to date info. And not the deliberately loaded stuff.

Making gasoline uses fuel too !

Graham
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Pooh Bear
science forum addict


Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

Phil wrote:

Quote:
I was under the impression EtOH raises octane rating by forming EtO*
radicals during burning? But to a lesser extent than ether

Ethanol has an octane rating around 110. It therefore is well adapted to higher
compression engines which are inherently more efficient.

Graham
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David Hare-Scott
science forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

<a_plutonium@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150615796.441742.297310@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

Evidence please.

David
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Stig Holmquist
science forum beginner


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

In Bazil no gasolin is used to run the tractors. They run on alcohol.
Also, they use no fosil fuel to run the plants but instead the left
over husks from the fermentation. And they have a net yield of
alcohol.

Bertil
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a_plutonium@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1063

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
(snip)
Quote:

No - Archy is basically correct. Net energy gain is very low or maybe
negative. Brazil probably does a better job than we do and sells
ethanol cheaper but we cannot import it because of large tax, thanks to
the likes of ADM, who was the main briber of politicians of both
parties to get us into this mess.

Although, I think he is mistaken that ethanol boasts octane. I heard
MBTE does this but not ethanol.

Also, something I never see addressed, is that in fermentation, for
every molecule of ethanol generated, there is a molecule of carbon
dioxide, the dreaded greenhouse gas.
Where does it go?

Frank

It is a octane booster, and there is no liaring about that at the pumps
where regular is 87 octane and 10% ethanol blend is 89 octane.

But the sad part of this story is that the Universities such as
Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa and others are failing their mission as
"teachers of the truth".

These Universities should be all giving the experiments of a research
farm that tabulates all the petrol input and compares it with the
ethanol end product. And then disseminating that fact data.

The fact the Universities and Colleges have done such a poor job of
this, can be seen by this Internet threads where I have been harping
this message for the past decade-- that modern day farming uses more
gasoline to produce ethanol than what the ethanol is worth. The number
of fools who argue against 1.5 gallons petrol to produce 1 gallon of
ethanol, is a large number. The number of smart people like Frank is a
small number. Yet the Colleges and Universities are failing in their
mission as truth givers, because they should have made this reality
about petrol farming for ethanol clear.

To run a Science Research Experiment on how much petrol is used to
obtain the data of 1.5 to 1 in disfavor of ethanol is not a experiment
that is inaccessible to the common person. A simple set up can be done.
Use a rototiller as a tractor, use a mower as a combine. Now, rototill
and mow a long stretch of ground, say perhaps 50 meters. Measure how
many cups of gasoline is needed to till 50 meters, how many to mow 50
meters. Fertilize the 50 meters and measure how many cups of fertilizer
it required. Herbicide the 50 meters and measure the cups used. Mow to
simulate harvesting and measure the cups of gasoline needed. Now, how
much corn will a strip of ground 50 meters long produce? Say about 3
bushels? (I am guessing). Now measure the amount of gasoline to
transport to a different spot on the ground where the ethanol plant is.
Now measure the amount of gasoline used to distill the ethanol from the
corn grain.

Universities and Colleges should have done the above in exacting
measures and should have published those results and many Universities
should have done similar experiments that say Iowa State would compare
with Nebraska University. And that we should not now be living in a
world of this huge ethanol propaganda and falsehoods.

Yes, it is true that ethanol can be a source of energy when horses are
used instead of tractors and no fertilizer or herbicides are used, and
where 19th century or Amish style farming is conducted to produce
ethanol. That is a win situation. But our modern day farming of total
mechanization and petrol use is a loss for ethanol production.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
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Repeating Rifle
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

On 6/18/06 5:00 AM, in article
1150632001.942461.19010@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Frank"
<frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote:

Quote:
Also, something I never see addressed, is that in fermentation, for
every molecule of ethanol generated, there is a molecule of carbon
dioxide, the dreaded greenhouse gas.
Where does it go?

Although I have not been convinced that ethanol is a viable replacement for
fossil fuel, your argument is not viable either. Presumably, the grain takes
as much carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere while growing as the alcohol it
produces generates when burned later. It is the burning diesel running farm
machinery that puts in carbon dioxide that is not recycled. When alcohol
produced on the farm makes petroleum input unnecessary, I will become a
believer.

ADM, you can avoid much mean mouthing and actually gain respect if you would
only run a demonstration farm with no petroleum input. To gain my respect,
it would only have to break even now on energy--not money.

Bill
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a_plutonium@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1063

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

When I guess estimated 3 bushels from a row of corn 50 meters long, I
was including the cob, not shelled corn. I suspect the cob can be used
in ethanol production. Anyway, it is obvious from just this
illustration that the amount of corn produced cannot possibly yield
more than the gasoline/diesel used to produce the corn to its
endproduct of ethanol.

Researchers can narrow the experiment to that of one corn plant.
Computing the amount of gasoline for tilling, for applying seed, for
combining etc. Computing the amount of petrol in the fertilizer and
herbicides and pesticides. Computing how many kernels one corn plant
yields on average. Computing how many milligrams of ethanol those corn
kernels can produce.

In other words we can almost do this experiment without ever going into
the fields. The smaller the experiment becomes, the more obvious it is
that it is impossible to avoid a loss.

And the ratio of 1.5 to 1 becomes worse as the amount of land is
increased, due to field loss of corn. Doing the experiment with one
single corn plant is the most idealized and precise indicator of the
true ratio.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
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Frank11
science forum beginner


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Quote:
I was under the impression EtOH raises octane rating by forming EtO*
radicals during burning? But to a lesser extent than ether

I took my comment from what appeared to be an erudite letter to C&E

News some time back. The farm interests got the oxygenate requirement
legislated in and the oil companies found MTBE satisfied the letter of
the law and gave a better octane use. With methanol and isobutylene as
building blocks, the additive is cheaper than ethanol. It did also not
have the blending and phase separation problems of ethanol.
Unfortunately they did not know that 1 ppb made water taste bad and
storage tanks do leak.

Later this am, Tim Russert had 3 oil company executives on. When
Brazil was discussed, it was mentioned that their fuel needs are only
3% of US's. Guess we all need stills in our back yards.

Cost benefit studies I've heard mentioned, back Archy. They were
frowned upon by the farm interests as being sponsored by oil interests.
Now, would farmers honestly sponsor such a study? When I worked in
textile fibers, I saw a cost/benefit study of cotton vs. polyester. It
accounted for the entire life cycle of both products. Any good
chemical engineering group could do this for ethanol.

As a chemist, what annoys me are the ethanol and environmental
interests that just put a strangle hold on the petroleum industry
making something like 65 grades of gasoline throughout the country.
When I was in R&D, it was common knowledge that the most efficient/cost
effective product was one that was made continually, around the clock.
Oil companies say they can satisfy pollution requirements without
jumping through all the legislative hoops put before them.

Frank
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Dean Hoffman
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

In article <1150662400.981598.135660@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote:

Quote:
I took my comment from what appeared to be an erudite letter to C&E
News some time back. The farm interests got the oxygenate requirement
legislated in and the oil companies found MTBE satisfied the letter of
the law and gave a better octane use. With methanol and isobutylene as
building blocks, the additive is cheaper than ethanol. It did also not
have the blending and phase separation problems of ethanol.
Unfortunately they did not know that 1 ppb made water taste bad and
storage tanks do leak.

Later this am, Tim Russert had 3 oil company executives on. When
Brazil was discussed, it was mentioned that their fuel needs are only
3% of US's. Guess we all need stills in our back yards.

Cost benefit studies I've heard mentioned, back Archy. They were
frowned upon by the farm interests as being sponsored by oil interests.
Now, would farmers honestly sponsor such a study? When I worked in
textile fibers, I saw a cost/benefit study of cotton vs. polyester. It
accounted for the entire life cycle of both products. Any good
chemical engineering group could do this for ethanol.

As a chemist, what annoys me are the ethanol and environmental
interests that just put a strangle hold on the petroleum industry
making something like 65 grades of gasoline throughout the country.
When I was in R&D, it was common knowledge that the most efficient/cost
effective product was one that was made continually, around the clock.
Oil companies say they can satisfy pollution requirements without
jumping through all the legislative hoops put before them.

Frank

Some info:
http://tinyurl.com/h67w8
A link to the National Corn Growers Assn:
http://tinyurl.com/l6tw9
This guy sees things differently:
http://tinyurl.com/c4hya
There is also a Pimental at Cornell:
http://tinyurl.com/jdejv

Dean

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Eric Gisin
science forum beginner


Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44952910.9F23D39B@hotmail.com...
Quote:


a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:

The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

No that's simply not true. It's propaganda put around by naysayers.

Just one blithering idiot with tenure: D Pimentel.

The loony left loves idiots so his bullshit is widespread.
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Michael Moroney
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

a_plutonium@hotmail.com writes:

Quote:
To run a Science Research Experiment on how much petrol is used to
obtain the data of 1.5 to 1 in disfavor of ethanol is not a experiment
that is inaccessible to the common person. A simple set up can be done.
Use a rototiller as a tractor, use a mower as a combine. Now, rototill
and mow a long stretch of ground, say perhaps 50 meters. Measure how
many cups of gasoline is needed to till 50 meters, how many to mow 50
meters. Fertilize the 50 meters and measure how many cups of fertilizer
....


A better method is to use real life data on how much it actually costs
farmers to grow corn. A good part of that cost will be the cost of oil,
either directly (diesel for tractors) or indirectly (energy cost to make
fertilizer, pesticides etc.). It doesn't matter what form the oil is,
each gallon used will show up as maybe $2.50 in costs (assuming untaxed
diesel).

Now I don't have any way of finding out how much the farmer's cost is, so
how about the next best thing. How much do farmers sell corn for? Now
that price is readily available, just check the commodities market. A
quick check shows corn currently fetches 261.25 cents per bushel. Now
farmers aren't going to sell below their costs, or at least not for long,
else they soon become ex-farmers. So their cost is going to be less than
$2.6125 per bushel. Even if we assume 100% of their cost is oil in some
form (the labor, land, capital costs of tractors etc. is somehow free) the
cost is about 1 gallon to produce a bushel of corn. It can't be more
unless they somehow get diesel for way below market rate. Because labor,
land and tractors aren't free, it really must be less than a gallon.

This doesn't include the energy to ferment and distill the corn.
Fermenting isn't much more than adding water and yeast and waiting.
Distillation takes energy but because of the low temps needed, it can use
waste heat from some other process, but let's ignore that for now. Can
anyone take it from here? How many gallons of ethanol can be produced
from that $2.61 bushel of corn (somewhat more than a cubic foot) ? How
much energy does it take to distill a gallon of alcohol from fermented
corn mash in an energy efficient process?
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Dean Hoffman
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

In article <e751p2$3ct$1@pcls4.std.com>,
moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote:

Quote:
a_plutonium@hotmail.com writes:

To run a Science Research Experiment on how much petrol is used to
obtain the data of 1.5 to 1 in disfavor of ethanol is not a experiment
that is inaccessible to the common person. A simple set up can be done.
Use a rototiller as a tractor, use a mower as a combine. Now, rototill
and mow a long stretch of ground, say perhaps 50 meters. Measure how
many cups of gasoline is needed to till 50 meters, how many to mow 50
meters. Fertilize the 50 meters and measure how many cups of fertilizer
...

A better method is to use real life data on how much it actually costs
farmers to grow corn. A good part of that cost will be the cost of oil,
either directly (diesel for tractors) or indirectly (energy cost to make
fertilizer, pesticides etc.). It doesn't matter what form the oil is,
each gallon used will show up as maybe $2.50 in costs (assuming untaxed
diesel).

The USDA keeps track of all sorts of things:
http://tinyurl.com/nxyjm

Dean

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