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takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture
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Dan Bloomquist
science forum addict


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

Quote:

Does it make you feel good saying vicious things about me?

Everyone does Bill, this is usenet. Nothing really gets done here but to
refine one's pitch. lol. lol. lol. I'm figuring that makes me look three
times smarter than you. lol. Now four.

Quote:
How did you know about my car troubles! haha..

haha. now five.

Quote:
I think your concern is sweet.

I think you are sour. lol. Now six.

Do I get points for sounding as stupid as you? lol. Seven.

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
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Dan Bloomquist
science forum addict


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

Quote:

The oil companies are in a more precarious position than people
realize.

Wow bill, so you will save the world. Halaoya!!!!!!!

Quote:
waste! lol.

lol. Eight.

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
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Dan Bloomquist
science forum addict


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

Quote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:


Another view
http://www.moneyweek.com/file/13377/could-coal-replace-oil.html

"At capital costs of $700 million for capacity of 10,000 barrels/day and
a 30-year life, operating costs of $15/barrel and current coal costs,
breakeven for a coal-to-liquids plant in the US would be in the range
$39-44 a barrel, assuming no tax incentives."


( Why is Dirk holding pom poms? )

What?

10,000 bbls/day is 3.65 million bbls/year is $191.78 capital cost per
barrel per year. That adds $19 per barrel to the cost. $15 per barrel
labor is a 7.8% labor cost. This totals $34 per barrel. $39 to $44
assumes a coal cost per barrel of $5 to $10 for coal - which translates
to $10 to $20 per ton - half the market rate for coal.

The capital costs seem low as well. They're probably not counting coal
production and transport capital, nor are they counting anti-pollution
and cleanup and remediation and reclamation costs - which accounts for
the low capital costs. Low labor rates account for low labor costs.

I guess if we don't care that the Chinese slave away for substandard
wages, we don't care that the Chinese are polluting their air land or
water, and we don't care that the Chinese work under terrible
conditions - I guess we don't mind buying cheap Chinese oil.

Well thanks bill, I didn't follow the link, the guy doesn't do his
homework. so, seven?

Quote:
There is a better way though.

Back to eight....

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
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Oz
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

William.Mook@gmail.com writes
Quote:
Oz,

What is your problem? lol.

Does it make you feel good saying vicious things about me?

Have I?

Where?

OTOH you cannot resist ad hominems at the drop of a hat.

Which says something for the strength of your argument.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
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spongehead
science forum beginner


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

Back to the subject.... Just saw the new Ford commercial about their
cars being ethanol E85 compliant. I was wondering when they were going
to use that as a promotional piece. Does anyone think now that Mr big
auto corporation is promoting this, that we're any closer on making
ethanol a worthwhile product? I mean, why else would they promote it
if it isnt for profit?
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William.Mook@gmail.com
science forum addict


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

Oz wrote:
Quote:
William.Mook@gmail.com writes
Oz,

What is your problem? lol.

Does it make you feel good saying vicious things about me?

Have I?

Ya think? lol.l

Quote:

Where?

Puh-lease! You've GOT to bve kidding! haha..


Quote:

OTOH you cannot resist ad hominems at the drop of a hat.

Nonsense

Quote:

Which says something for the strength of your argument.

OUCH! You don't think that's vicious? lol.

Quote:

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Prove it.
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Lloyd Parker
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 657

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

In article <1152555286.857957.287440@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
"spongehead" <hgoodale_msp@msn.com> wrote:
Quote:
Back to the subject.... Just saw the new Ford commercial about their
cars being ethanol E85 compliant. I was wondering when they were going
to use that as a promotional piece. Does anyone think now that Mr big
auto corporation is promoting this, that we're any closer on making
ethanol a worthwhile product? I mean, why else would they promote it
if it isnt for profit?

The more E85 vehicles they sell, the more it helps their CAFE value -- E85

vehicles get a bonus, which amounts to calculating the fuel mileage based just
on the 15% gasoline (so these vehicles get their mileage multiplied by around
7). Ford can then build more gas guzzlers without paying a penalty.
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David Bostwick
science forum addict


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

In article <1152584387.696677.103150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:

Oz wrote:

[...]

Quote:

Which says something for the strength of your argument.

OUCH! You don't think that's vicious? lol.


OK, so if anyone questions your logic or the strength of your argument, that's
vicious. That explains a lot.

Quote:

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Prove it.


Both are opinions. Opinions can be shown to be wrong by demonstrating the
truth. These opinions are probably correct. That's also an opinion, which
you're free to disprove by actually making your stuff work in the real world.
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William.Mook@gmail.com
science forum addict


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:16 am    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

David Bostwick wrote:
Quote:
In article <1152584387.696677.103150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

Oz wrote:

[...]


Which says something for the strength of your argument.

OUCH! You don't think that's vicious? lol.


OK, so if anyone questions your logic or the strength of your argument, that's
vicious. That explains a lot.


You conveniently cut out the following statement; " OTOH you cannot
resist ad hominems at the drop of a hat."

To which I replied, "OUCH! You don't thinnk that's vicious"

To which you replied - NONSENSICLY! lol - " OK, so if anyone questions
your logic or the strength of your argument..."

GOD you just GOTTA laugh! lol.

Hey, a*****le! lol Making a STATEMENT about something I do, WITHOUT
providing any supporting EVIDENCE or referring to the LOGIC of what
I've said, is not a QUESTION and is not an ARGUMENT! Jesus, what a
fucking jerk you are! lol.



Quote:


--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Prove it.


Both are opinions.

So, you are admitting you CANNOT PROVE IT! Which says that you are NOT
USING LOGIC, NOR ARE YOU USING ANY SORT OF ARGUMENTATION! hmm.. SO,
you are attacking me without any logical basis, making personal
judgements of me - the very definition of AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
Wherease, YOU are being a freaking a*****le describing me in terms that
best desribe YOU! lol.


Quote:
Opinions can be shown to be wrong by demonstrating the
truth.

Riight, and you have a unique access to TRUTH, which doesn't require
proof or logic, or facts. lol You are a perfect definition of an
a*****le by your behavior here! lol.

Quote:
These opinions are probably correct.

WIth absolutely no basis in reality! lol.

Quote:
That's also an opinion,

WHICH HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS IN FACT! haha..

Quote:
which
you're free to disprove by actually making your stuff work in the real world.

Riight, but proving the concepts with prototypes tested in an
independent lab is not good enough for you, right? LOL!

YOU ARE A FUCKING a*****le!
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shashi1
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
I am getting annoyed by politicians running for office who tout ethanol
as a great new energy source. Iowa and Nebraska are campaigning with
ethanol as an issue. This does great harm. For farmers and others may
think that ethanol is some sort of solution.

Ethanol can be a solution provided the farming of grains is done
without using any petroleum products. That means the old way of farming
using horses and no tractors.

The science is that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce
1 gallon of ethanol.

Ethanol was meant as a octane booster, not as the fuel itself.

So I am worried and angry that politicians are sending the wrong
message into the farm states by suggesting ethanol as some sort of
energy panacea. And alot of farmers could easily get hurt with a
decision based on the false understanding of ethanol.

Some are even touting the stock of companies like Archer Daniel Midland
since they are a large producer of ethanol.

But science does not liar. It gives the straight facts. As best as I
can obtain, the amount of gasoline/diesel used in the farm states to
produce the grains that will be turned into ethanol and counting the
fertilizers and pesticides and herbicides which are petrol based.
Counting up all of that petrol to produce the grains and the answer is
that it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline/diesel to produce 1 gallon of
ethanol.

Even a 10 year old kid can quickly grasp the fact that it is wiser to
just use the 1.5 gallons of gasoline in the car rather than use the 1.5
to produce 1 gallon of ethanol.

So politicians are doing a huge disservice to the general public where
people get the false notion that ethanol is big for our energy future.
Hey, it is only an octane booster.

Ethanol can be a energy source provided every farmer reverts back to
the 1800s way of farming. And I do not believe anyone in Iowa or
Nebraska is thrilled and tickled over reverting back to a 1800s way of
farming where never any gasoline or diesel is used.

So scientists and the agriculture colleges such as Iowa State or
Nebraska Univ should be teaching their farm state the truth of this
situation. So that farmers can make proper decisions. That it takes 1.5
gallons of gasoline/diesel and it yields a mere 1 gallon of ethanol.

I have heard from some Iowa politicians that ethanol could make Iowa
energy independent. That is a huge falsehood and it could lead to an
ethanol market bubble that bursts.

So the land grant colleges that teach agriculture such as Iowa State
and Nebraska University need to step up and correct this bogus
information that is inundating the farm states about ethanol. For if an
ethanol market bubble comes to pass, alot of farmers may get hurt.

Those Universities need to nail down the number more precise than my
1.5 to 1. It maybe 1.3 or 1.4. Of course that is with our tractor
mechanized farming. But with farming done such as the Amish where no
gasoline or diesel is used, then the ethanol produced can be a panacea.

Recently I heard that Archer Daniel Midland is increasing its number of
ethanol plants. Here again, those executives making that decision are
probably unaware and ignorant of the science. A rush and flood of
investment dollars can make corporate executives foolish in building
more ethanol plants.

And some companies are thinking of producing E85 vehicles that run on
85% ethanol.

Would anyone in the world gleefully hand over $1.50 and be happy with
the receipt of $1.00. Of course not. Just use the 1.5 gallons of
gasoline rather than turn it into 1 gallon of ethanol.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

dear a-pluton,
Even though the cost of ethanol prduced from sweet corn and other crops
exceed
the cost of producing, the same it is not so with all crops eg.
Brazils ethanol production from sugarcane and their selfsufficent in
petrol is a point to be noted
production of ethanol from sugarcane gives more returns than prduction
of sugar
in Brazil and India. The only hitch in sugar cane cultivation is the
avilablity of
water for irrigation. And for Biodiesel, Indian institute of science,
one of the premier
science Institute of Asia have done enough work on Pongamia(pongamia
pinnata)
for the last eight years and have shown to the world biodiesel can be
prdouced
with little or no irrigation. So for ethanol and biodiesel there are
enough crop avilable.
Monocropping should be totally avoided and polycroping should
encouraged and i feel
the same can be attained without disturbing mother NATURE
Regards,
Shashi
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David Bostwick
science forum addict


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

In article <1152667016.245221.292140@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:

David Bostwick wrote:
In article <1152584387.696677.103150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

Oz wrote:

[...]


Which says something for the strength of your argument.

OUCH! You don't think that's vicious? lol.


OK, so if anyone questions your logic or the strength of your argument,
that's
vicious. That explains a lot.


You conveniently cut out the following statement; " OTOH you cannot
resist ad hominems at the drop of a hat."

To which I replied, "OUCH! You don't thinnk that's vicious"

To which you replied - NONSENSICLY! lol - " OK, so if anyone questions
your logic or the strength of your argument..."

GOD you just GOTTA laugh! lol.

Hey, a*****le! lol Making a STATEMENT about something I do, WITHOUT
providing any supporting EVIDENCE or referring to the LOGIC of what
I've said, is not a QUESTION and is not an ARGUMENT! Jesus, what a
fucking jerk you are! lol.





--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Prove it.


Both are opinions.

So, you are admitting you CANNOT PROVE IT! Which says that you are NOT
USING LOGIC, NOR ARE YOU USING ANY SORT OF ARGUMENTATION! hmm.. SO,
you are attacking me without any logical basis, making personal
judgements of me - the very definition of AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
Wherease, YOU are being a freaking a*****le describing me in terms that
best desribe YOU! lol.


Opinions can be shown to be wrong by demonstrating the
truth.

Riight, and you have a unique access to TRUTH, which doesn't require
proof or logic, or facts. lol You are a perfect definition of an
a*****le by your behavior here! lol.

These opinions are probably correct.

WIth absolutely no basis in reality! lol.

That's also an opinion,

WHICH HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS IN FACT! haha..

which
you're free to disprove by actually making your stuff work in the real world.

Riight, but proving the concepts with prototypes tested in an
independent lab is not good enough for you, right? LOL!

YOU ARE A FUCKING a*****le!


I am truly impressed by the way you resisted any personal attacks, responded
to what was written, and provided clear, logical, and concise support for your
position. I can see why you're so successful in your endeavors.
Back to top
Oz
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

David Bostwick <david.bostwick@chemistry.gatech.edu> writes
Quote:
I am truly impressed by the way you
mook
resisted any personal attacks, responded
to what was written, and provided clear, logical, and concise support for your
position. I can see why you're so successful in your endeavors.

Quite. Such a calm and experienced person able to rationally remove any
counterarguments without loosing their cool in any way.

Quite impressive as you say.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Back to top
William.Mook@gmail.com
science forum addict


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol inmodern agriculture Reply with quote

David Bostwick wrote:
Quote:
In article <1152667016.245221.292140@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

David Bostwick wrote:
In article <1152584387.696677.103150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
William.Mook@gmail.com wrote:

Oz wrote:

[...]


Which says something for the strength of your argument.

OUCH! You don't think that's vicious? lol.


OK, so if anyone questions your logic or the strength of your argument,
that's
vicious. That explains a lot.


You conveniently cut out the following statement; " OTOH you cannot
resist ad hominems at the drop of a hat."

To which I replied, "OUCH! You don't thinnk that's vicious"

To which you replied - NONSENSICLY! lol - " OK, so if anyone questions
your logic or the strength of your argument..."

GOD you just GOTTA laugh! lol.

Hey, a*****le! lol Making a STATEMENT about something I do, WITHOUT
providing any supporting EVIDENCE or referring to the LOGIC of what
I've said, is not a QUESTION and is not an ARGUMENT! Jesus, what a
fucking jerk you are! lol.





--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Prove it.


Both are opinions.

So, you are admitting you CANNOT PROVE IT! Which says that you are NOT
USING LOGIC, NOR ARE YOU USING ANY SORT OF ARGUMENTATION! hmm.. SO,
you are attacking me without any logical basis, making personal
judgements of me - the very definition of AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
Wherease, YOU are being a freaking a*****le describing me in terms that
best desribe YOU! lol.


Opinions can be shown to be wrong by demonstrating the
truth.

Riight, and you have a unique access to TRUTH, which doesn't require
proof or logic, or facts. lol You are a perfect definition of an
a*****le by your behavior here! lol.

These opinions are probably correct.

WIth absolutely no basis in reality! lol.

That's also an opinion,

WHICH HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS IN FACT! haha..

which
you're free to disprove by actually making your stuff work in the real world.

Riight, but proving the concepts with prototypes tested in an
independent lab is not good enough for you, right? LOL!

YOU ARE A FUCKING a*****le!


I am truly impressed by the way you resisted any personal attacks, responded
to what was written, and provided clear, logical, and concise support for your
position. I can see why you're so successful in your endeavors.

Well there ya go! lol.
Back to top
a_plutonium@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1063

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

shashi wrote:
(snip what I wrote)
Quote:

dear a-pluton,
Even though the cost of ethanol prduced from sweet corn and other crops
exceed
the cost of producing, the same it is not so with all crops eg.

The distinction I am making is not whether it is monocrop or polycrop.
The distinction is petrol-based farming and that of Amish or no petrol
used farming.


Quote:
Brazils ethanol production from sugarcane and their selfsufficent in
petrol is a point to be noted
production of ethanol from sugarcane gives more returns than prduction
of sugar
in Brazil and India. The only hitch in sugar cane cultivation is the
avilablity of
water for irrigation. And for Biodiesel, Indian institute of science,
one of the premier
science Institute of Asia have done enough work on Pongamia(pongamia
pinnata)
for the last eight years and have shown to the world biodiesel can be
prdouced
with little or no irrigation. So for ethanol and biodiesel there are
enough crop avilable.
Monocropping should be totally avoided and polycroping should
encouraged and i feel
the same can be attained without disturbing mother NATURE
Regards,
Shashi

It is okay to build ethanol refineries here in the Midwest USA if those
refineries are going to end up as Amish style farming to grow the corn.
This is the old horse and buggy style farming. And where farming is on
a hundred acres not thousands of acres. This is farming that was done
before 1899.

In this style of farming, every gallon of ethanol has no cost but is a
pure 100% clean and saver of the environment.

The ethanol produced today from petrol farming makes Global Warming
worse. Because it ends up using more diesel and gasoline then if you
just used the diesel and gasoline and never bothered with making
ethanol.

So the reason that poorer countries like Brazil or South Africa can
have a viable ethanol industry is because they can shift their farmers
into Amish style farming. Here in the USA, that would be extremely
difficult to shift farmers into No-diesel and No-gasoline on their
farms.

And I saw in the recent news that the price of regular-gasoline versus
10% ethanol gasoline is now being truly priced at the pumps where the
10% is $3. gallon and regular is 10 cents cheaper.

The entire Ethanol story to date was merely that of an octane booster
at the pumps. Where hot rod wanted a higher octane. Some have even
noticed that regular gasoline gets a higher mileage than does 10%
ethanol.

But the propaganda by politicians and those who push ethanol is a bad
propaganda that could hurt alot of farmers and the farm community. The
TRUTH needs to be known and put in front of the people. Here the
Agriculture colleges and universities have not done their job but have
allowed the propaganda to reach this level of con-artistry. I liken
this propaganda to that of Enron.

Ethanol is fine and dandy and is a good for society provided it is
based on Amish style farming where every gallon of ethanol that is
produced has no cost. But every gallon of ethanol at today's pumps
spent 1.5 gallons of petrol in order to get it.

So the politicians need to stop their falsehoods about ethanol and the
ag Universities like Iowa State and Univ of Nebraska need to teach
people the difference between petrol based ethanol production and Amish
based ethanol production.

If this is not done, then these sprouting ethanol plants all over the
Midwest are going to end up like another Enron story of many
bankruptcies.

Build ethanol plants if you can fall back to that of Amish style
farming. But if you are hooked and addicted to using tractors and
herbicides and fertilizers and pesticides (all derived from petrol),
well, you could face bankruptcy.

Ethanol produced by Amish style farming is good for the environment and
helps to solve global warming. But here in the USA with our petrol
based farming, we spend about 1.5 gallons of petrol just to get 1
gallon of ethanol.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
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Eeyore
science forum beginner


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: takes 1.5 gallons gasoline to produce 1 gallon ethanol in modern agriculture Reply with quote

a_plutonium@hotmail.com wrote:

Quote:
But here in the USA with our petrol
based farming, we spend about 1.5 gallons of petrol just to get 1
gallon of ethanol.

Thta is simply plain wrong.

Graham
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