FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » New Theories
A Quantum Philosophical Thesis
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 3 of 6 [78 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next
Author Message
1Z
science forum beginner


Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

mimus wrote:
Quote:
A quantumized theory of nature should take as its first principle

_There are no real numbers in nature._

The digital universe: is the cosmos made of integers ?

QM does not in fact suggest this. It is not a theory that suggests
everything comes in distinct quantities -- any more than relativity is
a theory that suggests everything is relative. In fact, some
observables in QM are quite specifically and formally continuous:-

The corresponding eigenvalues x and p and eigenvectors |x> and |p>
satisfy the equations X|x> = x|x> P|p> = p|p> which, in general, could
constitute a continuous spectrum of eigenvalues and eigenvectors.

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman/stat.mech/lectures/lecture_12/node4.html

There is a speculative theory to the effect that everything is
quantised at the level of the Planck Length, Plank time, and so on, but
it is not Quantum Mechanics, and there is as yet no specific evidence
for it.

"More importantly for the physical theory, from Archimedes, thorough
Galileo and Newton, to Maxwell, Einstein, Schrodinger, Dirac and the
rest, a crucial role for the real number system has been that it
provides a necessary framework for the standard formulation of the
calculus. All succesful dynamical have required notions of the calculus
for their formulations. Now the conventional approach to calculus
requires the infinitesimal natureof the reals to be what it is. That is
to say,, on the small end of the scale, it is the entire range of real
numbers hat is being made use of. The ideas of calculus underlie other
physical physical notions, such as velocity, momentum and energy.
Consequently the real-number system enters our succesful physcial
theories in a fundamental way for the description fo all these
quantities also."
(R. Penrose, Road to Reality, p 61)
Back to top
1Z
science forum beginner


Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

mikegordge@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Quote:
mimus wrote:
A quantumized theory of nature should take as its first principle

_There are no real numbers in nature._

Goodness me, if that is the baisis of quantum anythings, then quantum
everythings are just another time wasting mind fucking reason rejecting
Randaphobic, Kantian, Russellian, Platonian POC Primacy of
Consciousness rort.

A "real number" is a nunber consisting of a potentially infinite
series of digits, as opposed to an integer.
Back to top
line_voltage
science forum beginner


Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

mimus wrote:
Quote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge wrote:


Smee wrote:


You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?


Try reading the OP again. No one said anything about numbers not existing
in nature . . . .



<raises hand>

numbers do NOT exist in nature

<bows>
Back to top
line_voltage
science forum beginner


Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

mikegordge@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Quote:
Smee wrote:


Does your brane ever hurt?

i bet his brainz would hurt with a bigh enough 2x4 laid smack dab
against it, :-:;:P

Quote:



Does your arse hurt pulling your head out of ?

oooh! and look! he made an "ass insult" joke!

he must have a VERY large penis


Quote:


Michael "The Gorge"


if i were you, smee, i wouldn't mess w/someone who has nicknamed his
enormous penis "the gorge"
Back to top
FrankB
science forum beginner


Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

mimus laid this down on his screen :
Quote:
A quantumized theory of nature should take as its first principle
_Real numbers are imaginary._

Unless they are posted by that "Usenet Stat Poster" on AAVF, off
course.

--
post above
Back to top
dave hillstrom
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge@xtra.co.nz wrote:

Quote:

Smee wrote:

You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?

what do you consider "in nature"?

because, technically, numbers only exist in our human brains. and
then only if we are taught about them, or, presumably, if we invented
them for ourself like the long lost founders of mathematics did.

show me a naturally occurring flower with numbers on its petals. go
on. all i need is for you to show me one. one naturally occurring
instance of a number in nature.

you cant. do you know why? its because numbers are a human
construct, a human created tool used to help us grasp and explain that
which we experience. numbers are NOT reality. but reality can be
~approximately~ and ~statistically~ represented by the use of numbers.

and why do you resort to ad hominem attacks on mimus in what is a
philosophical discussion? is it because you dont have a logical
argument and simply wish to lash out in anger? youll never get
anywhere youd like to be by doing that. and i would ~hope~ you are
person enough to apologize for it.


--
Dave Hillstrom mhm15x4 zrbj
"I can't find my puppy, can you help me find him? I think he went
into this cheap motel room."
-Dave Hillstrom
Back to top
dave hillstrom
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:33:53 -0400, mimus <tinmimus99@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge wrote:

Smee wrote:

You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?

Try reading the OP again. No one said anything about numbers not existing
in nature . . . .

~I~ say they dont exist in nature. and ~I~ define nature as that
which man has not created. and ~I~ say that numbers are a concoction
solely of mans brain due to his inability to grok nature without a
tool for counting and measuring.
so there.

--
Dave Hillstrom mhm15x4 zrbj
"I can't find my puppy, can you help me find him? I think he went
into this cheap motel room."
-Dave Hillstrom
Back to top
dave hillstrom
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:01:07 -0400, mimus <tinmimus99@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:54:04 -0700, mikegordge wrote:


mimus wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge wrote:

Smee wrote:

You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?

Try reading the OP again. No one said anything about numbers not existing
in nature . . . .


_There are no real numbers in nature._

Number is a concept, a quantity of units, a concept is a mental
abstraction it Integrates two or more particulars into a common mental
unit.

No units, nothing to measure no numbers are required.

BTW time is a measurement of motion, no motion no time.

Aha.

Please note the (ordinary) mathematical distinction between "real" numbers
on the one hand and the ordinal and cardinal numbers-- the integers--
on the other, made in the OP.

Thank you.

they dont exist in nature, either. no numbers exist in nature.
numbers only exist in our human minds, and then only if taught.

--
Dave Hillstrom mhm15x4 zrbj
"I can't find my puppy, can you help me find him? I think he went
into this cheap motel room."
-Dave Hillstrom
Back to top
dave hillstrom
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:21:31 -0700, "Smee" <pscissons@adelphia.net>
wrote:

Quote:

mikegordge@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1151193244.578357.97070@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...

mimus wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge wrote:

Smee wrote:

You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?

Try reading the OP again. No one said anything about numbers not
existing
in nature . . . .


_There are no real numbers in nature._

Number is a concept, a quantity of units, a concept is a mental
abstraction it Integrates two or more particulars into a common mental
unit.

No units, nothing to measure no numbers are required.

BTW time is a measurement of motion, no motion no time.

Does your brane ever hurt?

well, since there is only one state in which there can be no motion
(and even then there is argument on the issue), that where the
temperature equals absolute zero, and since our planet doesnt ever get
to that low temperature naturally (at least for many billions of years
to come), i dont really think this notion of no motion=no time really
matters much for us humans.

also, since light moves through space at approximately c, and
considering the enormous quantity of stars that exist, one would never
truly be without motion, no matter where you found yourself in the
galaxy. thats not to say that your sense of time might not be very
different from someone elses, but thats a completely separate problem.

--
Dave Hillstrom mhm15x4 zrbj
"I can't find my puppy, can you help me find him? I think he went
into this cheap motel room."
-Dave Hillstrom
Back to top
dave hillstrom
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On 25 Jun 2006 01:12:37 -0700, mikegordge@xtra.co.nz wrote:

Quote:

Smee wrote:

Does your brane ever hurt?


Does your arse hurt pulling your head out of ?


Michael Gordge

so, it seems that michael gordge is not in alt.philosophy to find the
truth in things. it seems hes in alt.philosophy to bully and work on
his ad hominem content. im just guessing here, but maybe since you
seem to spend an inordinate amount of time in the new zealand and
australian politics groups, groups that i might add are chock full of
rude and seemingly ill bred people just like you, that youve forgotten
how to be civil with those around you.

michael gordges google posting history:
nz.politics 4109 messages
nz.general 863 messages
alt.philosophy 765 messages
aus.politics 165 messages
alt.atheism 95 messages
alt.politics.bush 79 messages

there are also a great number of other politics groups hes been in.

hes even put in appearances in soc.men, the mysoginist, racist capital
of usenet. worse than even alt.flame.niggers.


now, would anyone else here in the included groups for this post like
to play? or is this sad excuse for a philosopher the only one ~in~
these groups?

--
Dave Hillstrom mhm15x4 zrbj
"I can't find my puppy, can you help me find him? I think he went
into this cheap motel room."
-Dave Hillstrom
Back to top
mimus
science forum addict


Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:30 -0700, mikegordge wrote:

Quote:

mimus wrote:

Nobody six would ask.

Which automatically causes eyebrows to rise.

Only if you think we should remain at the mental developmental level of
the average six-year-old.

I've read similar comments to yours, about explaining to a child, yadda
yadda, most eminently I believe one by Einstein.

But, for example, in order to explain certain relations asserted by
_Principia Mathematica_, you need several pages' worth of eyewateringly
dnse symbolic notation simply to define the entities that you are going to
assert a relation between, and the average child is not going to be able
to handle that.

And many adult decisions involve matters of experience and conception that
are far beyond a child's ability and experience to grasp, hence the almost
universal legal doctrine of minority.

So I don't think much of the general assertion that "If you can't explain
it to a child, you don't understand it or it isn't real."

Such assertion is itself childish. Einstein or no Einstein.

Quote:
The most intriguing characteristic of real
numbers in the mathematical
sense is that each successive real must have an infinite number of
significant figures (otherwise you could place a real of one more
significant figure-- make it a five-- between any two other reals),
making their existence dubious in the first place, and meaning also
that existing or not we can only ever approximate them anyway.

Was that your case?

Part of it, yep.

Quote:
A number is a concept, a quantity of units. A concept is a mental
abstraction, which purpose is to integrate two or more particulars into
a common mental unit.

A number is to calculation, what pages are to a book, they have a
purpose.

You would have done better to relate it to a word.

In both cases, the symbol corresponds to something real (hopefully), in
the case of an ordinal number an order, a cardinal number a count, and a
real number an amount or magnitude.

And a real number, of infinite precision, implies an amount or
magnitude of equal precision . . . .

Quote:
There is a correct order for the numbers to be used in a calculation in
the same manner as there is a correct order for pages to be placed into
a book, there are no *unreal pages of a book* there are no unreal
numbers in a calculation.

You are giving number a meaning it does not have in sensory reality,
therefore IS a meaning from a figment of imagination and therefore of NO
USE at all to the rational mind.

I don't see how you get that at all.

--
tinmimus99@hotmail.com

smeeter 11 or maybe 12

mp 10

mhm 29x13

When a system is set up to accomplish some goal, a
new entity has come into being--the system itself.
No matter what the "goal" of the system, it
immediately begins to exhibit system behavior; that
is, to act according to the general laws that govern
the operation of all systems. Now the system itself
has to be dealt with.

< _Systemantics_
Back to top
mimus
science forum addict


Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:12:37 -0700, mikegordge wrote:

Quote:
Smee wrote:

Does your brane ever hurt?


Does your arse hurt pulling your head out of ?

Napoleon Hill?

--
tinmimus99@hotmail.com

smeeter 11 or maybe 12

mp 10

mhm 29x13

You want a job and a lizard to ride?

< _The Einstein Intersection_
Back to top
mimus
science forum addict


Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 06:00:55 -0700, 1Z wrote:

Quote:
mimus wrote:

A quantumized theory of nature should take as its first principle

_There are no real numbers in nature._

The digital universe: is the cosmos made of integers ?

QM does not in fact suggest this.

Just to clarify, I didn't suggest that quantum mechanics did.

QM *does* claim that every measurable phenomenon can be modeled in terms
of wave(-like) functions, which means by transitivity that every
measurable phenomenon can be modeled in terms of every other measurable
phenomenon--see my "A Willy-Nilly GUT").

--
tinmimus99@hotmail.com

smeeter 11 or maybe 12

mp 10

mhm 29x13

We'd be better off in a mental home than we are here:
a quiet garden, little white cells, nurses, supervised walks.

< _Solaris_
Back to top
mimus
science forum addict


Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:52:07 +0000, line_voltage wrote:

Quote:
mimus wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge wrote:

Smee wrote:

You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?

Try reading the OP again. No one said anything about numbers not existing
in nature . . . .

raises hand

numbers do NOT exist in nature

bows

I guess symbols and gestures don't, either.

--
tinmimus99@hotmail.com

smeeter 11 or maybe 12

mp 10

mhm 29x13

Prang-nuts is prang-nuts, right? Whether you find
'em inna woods, or they're dispensed by a autofeeder.

< Laumer
Back to top
mimus
science forum addict


Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: A Quantum Philosophical Thesis Reply with quote

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:50:55 -0400, dave hillstrom wrote:

Quote:
On 24 Jun 2006 15:09:26 -0700, mikegordge@xtra.co.nz wrote:


Smee wrote:

You are hereby fined 27 and one half points for obfuscation.

And you reckon saying *numbers dont exist in nature* isn't coming from
an obfuscated and seriously fucked up reason dead brain?

what do you consider "in nature"?

because, technically, numbers only exist in our human brains. and
then only if we are taught about them, or, presumably, if we invented
them for ourself like the long lost founders of mathematics did.

show me a naturally occurring flower with numbers on its petals. go
on. all i need is for you to show me one. one naturally occurring
instance of a number in nature.

you cant. do you know why? its because numbers are a human
construct, a human created tool used to help us grasp and explain that
which we experience. numbers are NOT reality. but reality can be
~approximately~ and ~statistically~ represented by the use of numbers.

and why do you resort to ad hominem attacks on mimus in what is a
philosophical discussion? is it because you dont have a logical
argument and simply wish to lash out in anger? youll never get
anywhere youd like to be by doing that. and i would ~hope~ you are
person enough to apologize for it.

<cough>

I don't mind a little fLaming now and then.

But Smee should kick his "arse".

--
tinmimus99@hotmail.com

smeeter 11 or maybe 12

mp 10

mhm 29x13

I AM JUST WEST OF THE MANURE PILE

< First known military "wireless" communication
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 3 of 6 [78 Posts] Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:44 pm | All times are GMT
Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » New Theories
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts Signal Nonlocality Loophole in Quantum Theory? Jack Sarfatti Math 0 Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:59 am
No new posts Jungian Archetypes in Post-Quantum Psychotronics Jack Sarfatti Math 0 Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:40 am
No new posts A Look at Quantum "Spookiness" Egap Strings 0 Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:52 am
No new posts thesis about singapore math Claudia Math 0 Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:54 pm
No new posts thesis about singapore math Claudia Math 2 Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:15 pm

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Electronics forum |  Medicine forum |  Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums  |  send newsletters
 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0421s ][ Queries: 16 (0.0036s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]