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Electron Configuration Graph?
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Bob111
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:09:24 GMT, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
<hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Quote:
Awhile back, I became interested in reviewing the method
of drawing electron configurations of each element from just
knowing the atomic number of that element, and the order in
which the subshells are filled, but upon looking at a list of
electron configurations in a chemistry book that I'd seen a
few years ago, I noticed some inconsistencies that aren't
accounted for using the usual method of filling the subshells.
These inconsistencies occur with


24 Chromium
29 Copper
41 Niobium
44 Ruthenium
46 Palladium
59 Praseodymium
65 Terbium
78 Platinum
91 Protactinium
94 Plutonium
97 Berkelium


These elements are listed with their respective atomic numbers, and in
each of them, one of the subshells steals an electron from the subshell
next to it. There may be other inconsistencies in the list, and I hope that
people here will post them. I'm obviously not pretending to be the first
one to notice this, but I'm interested in being able to write out the
electron configuration of ANY element without having to look at a
chart.

I'd like to be able to do it in my head if possible. :-)

If there is a pattern that explains the inconsistencies, please tell me what
it is, otherwise, I'll just have to memorize the names of the elements in
which they occur.


Ah. It is one thing to write the "nominal" electron configurations
(ec) -- the ec that would occur if all went according to the simple
plan. But as you noted, it does not. All of the irregularities occur
in regions where the energy differences are quite small, and any
simple summary just won't work.

I don't know of any good way to predict the irregularities. However,
note that _many_ of the "stealings" you note lead to either a
half-filled or filled sublevel. This is interesting, but not strong
enough to be a general predictor.


Why, other than mental exercise, would you want to memorize the
irregular ec's?? Anyone who really needs them can look in a table,
conveniently found in most any chem book.

As a chem teacher, I think students should see the general
relationship between ec and the PT. Since the pattern is fairly
simple, I think they can be expected to write out ec for elements up
to Ca, simply by looking at a PT. Past that, there are various
complexities. The student should at least be aware of them. Details
will depend on course level, but I certainly would never expect
someone to know the irregularities (other than knowing there are some)
-- so if you really care, be careful and look up the ec).

bob
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Patrick D. Rockwell
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

Awhile back, I became interested in reviewing the method
of drawing electron configurations of each element from just
knowing the atomic number of that element, and the order in
which the subshells are filled, but upon looking at a list of
electron configurations in a chemistry book that I'd seen a
few years ago, I noticed some inconsistencies that aren't
accounted for using the usual method of filling the subshells.
These inconsistencies occur with


24 Chromium
29 Copper
41 Niobium
44 Ruthenium
46 Palladium
59 Praseodymium
65 Terbium
78 Platinum
91 Protactinium
94 Plutonium
97 Berkelium


These elements are listed with their respective atomic numbers, and in
each of them, one of the subshells steals an electron from the subshell
next to it. There may be other inconsistencies in the list, and I hope that
people here will post them. I'm obviously not pretending to be the first
one to notice this, but I'm interested in being able to write out the
electron configuration of ANY element without having to look at a
chart.

I'd like to be able to do it in my head if possible. :-)

If there is a pattern that explains the inconsistencies, please tell me what
it is, otherwise, I'll just have to memorize the names of the elements in
which they occur.


--
----------------------------------
Patrick D. Rockwell
"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:betoa21ib5m45tcuv3slgsbri2p4si8q7t@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 22:09:55 GMT, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:


Well, I guess I'm looking for a chart which shows the order in which
the shells fill. The X axiss would be labeled 1 through 7 or beyond,
the Y axis would be labeled S P D F and whatever other orbitals
their are. I had a chemistry book which had this chart a long time
ago, I was wondering if I could find a place on the Web which
has it.

I tried Google. I even tried Aufbau diagram, and what I found was
not what I was looking for. What I have in mind is a graph, not
a chart.


In part, this is a follow-up to our email exchange, in which you
indicated that the standard Aufbau diagram I sent you is not really
what you are looking for.

Some comments...

I have looked at several books on my shelf, and do not see anything
like what you describe. (I may look thru some more at some point.)

You seem to have a clear idea what you want, and you know the basic
facts. Why not just draw it. If you'd like for someone here to look at
it (check it) we can deal with that when the time comes.

Let me note a disadvantage of the proposed presentation, as I
understand it. The Aufbau diagram shows the approximate spacing of the
energy levels (and sublevels). In particular one can see that some
levels are very closely spaced. Thus when real ordering does not
follow the nominal diagram, it is not so shocking.

If you are just looking for a good way to remember or visualize the
ordering... Frankly, I think the periodic table (PT) is all one needs.
Once one recognizes the s, p, d and f blocks, and understand the basic
idea that the number of sublevels increases for higher levels, then
one can read the pattern directly from the PT.

bob

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Bob111
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 22:09:55 GMT, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
<hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Quote:

Well, I guess I'm looking for a chart which shows the order in which
the shells fill. The X axiss would be labeled 1 through 7 or beyond,
the Y axis would be labeled S P D F and whatever other orbitals
their are. I had a chemistry book which had this chart a long time
ago, I was wondering if I could find a place on the Web which
has it.

I tried Google. I even tried Aufbau diagram, and what I found was
not what I was looking for. What I have in mind is a graph, not
a chart.


In part, this is a follow-up to our email exchange, in which you
indicated that the standard Aufbau diagram I sent you is not really
what you are looking for.

Some comments...

I have looked at several books on my shelf, and do not see anything
like what you describe. (I may look thru some more at some point.)

You seem to have a clear idea what you want, and you know the basic
facts. Why not just draw it. If you'd like for someone here to look at
it (check it) we can deal with that when the time comes.

Let me note a disadvantage of the proposed presentation, as I
understand it. The Aufbau diagram shows the approximate spacing of the
energy levels (and sublevels). In particular one can see that some
levels are very closely spaced. Thus when real ordering does not
follow the nominal diagram, it is not so shocking.

If you are just looking for a good way to remember or visualize the
ordering... Frankly, I think the periodic table (PT) is all one needs.
Once one recognizes the s, p, d and f blocks, and understand the basic
idea that the number of sublevels increases for higher levels, then
one can read the pattern directly from the PT.

bob
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Bob111
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 22:09:55 GMT, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
<hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Quote:

Aufbau diagram

Well, I guess I'm looking for a chart which shows the order in which
the shells fill. The X axiss would be labeled 1 through 7 or beyond,
the Y axis would be labeled S P D F and whatever other orbitals
their are. I had a chemistry book which had this chart a long time
ago, I was wondering if I could find a place on the Web which
has it.

I tried Google. I even tried Aufbau diagram, and what I found was
not what I was looking for. What I have in mind is a graph, not
a chart.


I have sent you a figure by email, using the address you have shown
here. If that is not a valid email address, please give me one.

bob
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Repeating Rifle
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On 7/4/06 2:54 PM, in article
msBqg.34000$VE1.7068@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
<hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Quote:
Well, I guess I'm looking for a chart which shows the order in which
the shells fill. The X axiss would be labeled 1 through 7 or beyond,
the Y axis would be labeled S P D F and whatever other orbitals
their are. I had a chemistry book which had this chart a long time
ago, I was wondering if I could find a place on the Web which
has it.

Again, my suggestion is to go to a good technical library. IIRC there was a
book by Kauzman entitled "Quantum Chemistry" that had such a graphic. Even
so, the exact way these orbital get filled depend upon very small energy
differences. These in turn depend upon the local fields the core ions find
themselves.

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
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Patrick D. Rockwell
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:obmja25ss8rog86oqk21pe3n6dogr9u9js@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:30:21 GMT, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.

Not sure what you are asking for. What is the point of the graph that
you describe in the second paragraph??? That is, what does it show?

Can you clarify what you have in mind, perhaps with an example??

If you aren't sure, try googling with terms such as

electron configuration

OR

Aufbau diagram

Well, I guess I'm looking for a chart which shows the order in which

the shells fill. The X axiss would be labeled 1 through 7 or beyond,
the Y axis would be labeled S P D F and whatever other orbitals
their are. I had a chemistry book which had this chart a long time
ago, I was wondering if I could find a place on the Web which
has it.

I tried Google. I even tried Aufbau diagram, and what I found was
not what I was looking for. What I have in mind is a graph, not
a chart.
Back to top
Patrick D. Rockwell
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

"Salmon Egg" <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:C0CED1A9.30483%salmonegg@sbcglobal.net...
Quote:
On 7/3/06 1:48 PM, in article e8bvrm$k20$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk,
"Christopher Kerr" <cjk34@cam.ac.uk> wrote:

Salmon Egg wrote:

On 7/2/06 11:30 PM, in article
1Q2qg.164736$F_3.112438@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net, "Patrick D.
Rockwell"
hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.
Go to a library.
-- Ferme le Bush

That's not exactly very helpful. It would be nice if people assumed OPs
had
the common sense (and courtesy) to look for information for themselves
before coming here, until the opposite becomes obvious. In my personal
experience, the sort of information this OP is looking for will be very
hard to find in a library - there is no way you could search for it
without
reading every chemistry book, and probably some physics books too, from
cover to cover. Assuming that searches with common search engines do not
give any results, the only other option is to ask people who might know
where to find one - which is exactly what sci.chem is for.

I personally do not know of any such graph, but I expect that the best
place
to look would be online notes for an inorganic chemistry course.

The question was not clear. Is the original poster asking for an energy
level diagram? Is it for the order in which electron shells fill?

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush


Well, I guess I'm looking for a chart which shows the order in which
the shells fill. The X axiss would be labeled 1 through 7 or beyond,
the Y axis would be labeled S P D F and whatever other orbitals
their are. I had a chemistry book which had this chart a long time
ago, I was wondering if I could find a place on the Web which
has it.
--
----------------------------------
Patrick D. Rockwell
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Bob111
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:07 am    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:30:21 GMT, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
<hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Quote:
Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.

Not sure what you are asking for. What is the point of the graph that
you describe in the second paragraph??? That is, what does it show?

Can you clarify what you have in mind, perhaps with an example??

If you aren't sure, try googling with terms such as

electron configuration

OR

Aufbau diagram

bob
Back to top
Repeating Rifle
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On 7/3/06 1:48 PM, in article e8bvrm$k20$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk,
"Christopher Kerr" <cjk34@cam.ac.uk> wrote:

Quote:
Salmon Egg wrote:

On 7/2/06 11:30 PM, in article
1Q2qg.164736$F_3.112438@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.
Go to a library.
-- Ferme le Bush

That's not exactly very helpful. It would be nice if people assumed OPs had
the common sense (and courtesy) to look for information for themselves
before coming here, until the opposite becomes obvious. In my personal
experience, the sort of information this OP is looking for will be very
hard to find in a library - there is no way you could search for it without
reading every chemistry book, and probably some physics books too, from
cover to cover. Assuming that searches with common search engines do not
give any results, the only other option is to ask people who might know
where to find one - which is exactly what sci.chem is for.

I personally do not know of any such graph, but I expect that the best place
to look would be online notes for an inorganic chemistry course.

The question was not clear. Is the original poster asking for an energy
level diagram? Is it for the order in which electron shells fill?

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
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Christopher Kerr
science forum beginner


Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

Salmon Egg wrote:

Quote:
On 7/2/06 11:30 PM, in article
1Q2qg.164736$F_3.112438@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.
Go to a library.
-- Ferme le Bush

That's not exactly very helpful. It would be nice if people assumed OPs had
the common sense (and courtesy) to look for information for themselves
before coming here, until the opposite becomes obvious. In my personal
experience, the sort of information this OP is looking for will be very
hard to find in a library - there is no way you could search for it without
reading every chemistry book, and probably some physics books too, from
cover to cover. Assuming that searches with common search engines do not
give any results, the only other option is to ask people who might know
where to find one - which is exactly what sci.chem is for.

I personally do not know of any such graph, but I expect that the best place
to look would be online notes for an inorganic chemistry course.
Back to top
Patrick D. Rockwell
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

"Salmon Egg" <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:C0CEA7B5.303A8%salmonegg@sbcglobal.net...
Quote:
On 7/2/06 11:30 PM, in article
1Q2qg.164736$F_3.112438@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.
Go to a library.
-- Ferme le Bush


I don't have a chemistry book, nor am I likely to get one
or visit the library soon, Smile I was just wondering if the web has
this graph. The web already has so much else that's already
in books and libraries so, there MUST be a URL which has
an electron configuration graph!

Does anyone know?

--
----------------------------------
Patrick D. Rockwell
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Repeating Rifle
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

On 7/2/06 11:30 PM, in article
1Q2qg.164736$F_3.112438@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net, "Patrick D. Rockwell"
<hnhc85a@prodigy.net> wrote:

Quote:
Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.
Go to a library.

-- Ferme le Bush
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Patrick D. Rockwell
science forum beginner


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject: Electron Configuration Graph? Reply with quote

Is there a website which shows an electron configuration?

A two dimensional graph with S P D F on the Y axis, and the numbers 1
through 7 (or more)
along the X axis? Thanks in advance.

--
----------------------------------
Patrick D. Rockwell
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