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(Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help
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Michael Daly
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

bitternut wrote:
Quote:
Any
small leak or spillage could cause a disaster. Gasoline fumes would settle
close to the floor just waiting for a spark to produce an explosion. I would
say put it in a small ventilated hut at ground level.

Any boat owner with an inboard knows that you vent the engine compartment well
before starting the engine. Vent means a powered blower, not just opening a
little hatch.

Your advise is very good. That pit is a fire risk without proper precautions taken.

Mike
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Joseph Meehan
science forum beginner


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

bitternut wrote:
Quote:
The rain factor would be the least of your problems with that
generator in a pit. That is the last place I would put anything that
required gasoline. Any small leak or spillage could cause a disaster.
Gasoline fumes would settle close to the floor just waiting for a
spark to produce an explosion. I would say put it in a small
ventilated hut at ground level.

I was guessing that his unit was designed to run on natural gas, not
gasoline, but it is not clear. If it is gasoline or propane, I would
certainly agree with the danger you point out.




--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit
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RicodJour
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

Goedjn wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 19:12:49 GMT, "YouGoFirst"

Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
pit that you haven't explained.


Or this bizzarre technological contraption called a "pulley".

There you go again - trying to reinvent the wheel. ;)

R
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jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

dpb wrote:
Quote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.

A 10-ft span could easily be bridged w/ a 2x8 and safely hold 500 lbs
(w/ only something over 1/8" deflection if my mental gymnastics weren't
too far off). For something like that you certainly don't need a metal
beam unless you just want it for showin' off. In practice, for
something like this I would probably go with a double 2x6 rather than a
single 2x8 or 2x10 for a little more lateral rigidity, but certainly
don't need more for supporting the load safely.

I'm sorta' w/ J Meehan on the application, though...unless you're
building an enclosed weathertight basement-like structure w/ air supply
and exhaust provisions seems like the wrong place to put an emergency
generator...


There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Thanks in advance.

This stand-by generator thing really presents a lot options, all with
related problems. If you enjoy solving problems, it's very interesting.
If you don't, it'll drive you nuts. With me the whole thing started off
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
fastening some sort of plate (1/2" thick max) on the bottom of them to
accommodate the trolley wheels. Given that a small, used I-Beam, only
costs about $25-$50 at a salvage yard, the steel solution seemed most
practical.
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jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

Joseph Meehan wrote:
Quote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.

There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Thanks in advance.

Let's see. Power outage, often caused by storms. Storms are often
associated with lots of rain. Rain fills holes in the ground, and you want
to put an emergency generator into the ground to use during storms.
Mmmmm....

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

The hole will have a little roof over it, about 6 feet above the hole,
and the bottom of the hole will be filled with about 6 inches of
gravel. There aren't any really good, economical solutions to the
generator noise problem. Everything is a compromise.
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Glenn
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

When everybody else is dark it will sound like music. Speaking
from experience.

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

Quote:

This stand-by generator thing really presents a lot
options, all with related problems. If you enjoy solving
problems, it's very interesting. If you don't, it'll
drive you nuts. With me the whole thing started off when
I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at
a pawn stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would
be nice to have a standby generator for the house, so I
bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it
is. You can probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away
or more. It sounds at least twice as loud as my Honda
lawnmower. After a lot of research on sound control, I
came up with a hole in the ground as the most practical.
I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would
require fastening some sort of plate (1/2" thick max) on
the bottom of them to accommodate the trolley wheels.
Given that a small, used I-Beam, only costs about $25-$50
at a salvage yard, the steel solution seemed most
practical.
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Private
science forum beginner


Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
snip
Quote:
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
snip


I bet if you route the exhaust through an old auto muffler (and the longer
pipe you will need to get it out of any enclosure) that you will notice a
big reduction in the sound level. Do not bother to disconnect the original
small muffler. Make sure you use some kind of a rain hat.
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Dave H.
science forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

"Michael Daly" wrote...
Quote:
bitternut wrote:
Any small leak or spillage could cause a disaster. Gasoline fumes would
settle close to the floor just waiting for a spark to produce an
explosion. I would say put it in a small ventilated hut at ground level.

Any boat owner with an inboard knows that you vent the engine compartment
well before starting the engine. Vent means a powered blower, not just
opening a little hatch.

Your advise is very good. That pit is a fire risk without proper
precautions taken.

Mike

Alternatively, you could bail it out - though what your neighbours will
think of you repeatedly hauling up an empty bucket on a rope and pouring
nothing out away from the hole is open to question ;o)

Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)
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jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

Private wrote:
Quote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
snip
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
snip

I bet if you route the exhaust through an old auto muffler (and the longer
pipe you will need to get it out of any enclosure) that you will notice a
big reduction in the sound level. Do not bother to disconnect the original
small muffler. Make sure you use some kind of a rain hat.

I did quite a bit of research on the automobile muffler idea. The
consensus seems to be that automobile mufflers don't reduce the noise
much.
Back to top
Chas Hurst
science forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152232188.834683.299530@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Private wrote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
snip
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
snip

I bet if you route the exhaust through an old auto muffler (and the
longer
pipe you will need to get it out of any enclosure) that you will notice a
big reduction in the sound level. Do not bother to disconnect the
original
small muffler. Make sure you use some kind of a rain hat.

I did quite a bit of research on the automobile muffler idea. The
consensus seems to be that automobile mufflers don't reduce the noise
much.

I've got an 8 hp woodsplitter with an automotive muffler and a VW beetle
chrome tip welded into the outlet. It makes virtually no exhaust noise.
Back to top
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

YouGoFirst wrote:
Quote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.


Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
pit that you haven't explained.

I'm retired and most of my relatives have moved out of state or died
off. I do have 3 close- by, likely suspects that would help me.
However, one of them has a very bad back and is currently putting off
surgery. The other one has a bad back, but works as a roofer foreman
and ignores it so I could use him, but he travels out of town a lot on
his job. The other one is usually close by, but 200 pounds is a lot for
2 people to lift in and out of a hole and my back isn't all that great.
I don't want to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
way.

The hole requires a roof anyway. So, it didn't seem like that big of a
deal to add the hoist. Another nice thing about a hoist is that I can
experiment with depth vs sound attenuation quite easily. It's a
judgement call. Once you get sucked into trying to reduce the sound on
these very loud generators, you make a lot of judgement calls.

Quote:

But I do agree with a previous poster, why would you put a generator into a
pit?

Noise reduction. The whole problem is noise reduction and holes are
relatively cheap compared to other options and I have a relatively
large yard, too large really. These things are unbelievably loud--I
would guess twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower.
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jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Quote:
When everybody else is dark it will sound like music. Speaking
from experience.

Yah, I wondered about that. Besides, I might not be the only one in the
neighborhood using a generator if the power was out very long. But then
I'm retired and have time on my hands . . .
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jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

Chas Hurst wrote:
Quote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152232188.834683.299530@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

Private wrote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
snip
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
snip

I bet if you route the exhaust through an old auto muffler (and the
longer
pipe you will need to get it out of any enclosure) that you will notice a
big reduction in the sound level. Do not bother to disconnect the
original
small muffler. Make sure you use some kind of a rain hat.

I did quite a bit of research on the automobile muffler idea. The
consensus seems to be that automobile mufflers don't reduce the noise
much.

I've got an 8 hp woodsplitter with an automotive muffler and a VW beetle
chrome tip welded into the outlet. It makes virtually no exhaust noise.

I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the engine and the RPM.
Honda makes very quiet generators, for instance, but they cost about
$3000, I think. I only paid $390 at a pawnshop for mine. I actually
loaded the generator up one day and took it to 2 muffler shops. Both of
them told me they had done this before and it didn't help much.

Here's a quote from a generator thread:

"Now. Since I've already done what you're thinking about doing, some
comments. A lot of noise comes from the exhaust but nearly all of it.
My Generac with the super-quiet muffler is still noisy, far too noisy
to use in a CG.

Much of the noise comes from the intake roar. This is much more
problematic to silence, since there has to be an air cleaner in the
path and since the intake right up to the carb on the Generac is
plastic. I've experimented with a commercial air compressor
muffler/air cleaner with some results. This Speedaire unit, available
from Graingers, uses tuned tubes to cancel the steady drone of the air
compressor. The frequency of the generator is much higher, as it runs
much faster, so some trimming of the tuning tubes is necessary. I
haven't installed it on this generator because it is too small.
Probably OK for a 4 or 5 kw generator.

Other major sources of noise include the valve train, the cylinder fins
and the crankcase walls. I've applied liquid rubber such as used in
bed liners to the crankcase which helped some. Keeping the valve train
adjusted tight reduces the noise at the risk of a burnt valve. No
solution yet for the cylinder and head fins, which can't be coated."
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jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

trader4@optonline.net wrote:
Quote:
YouGoFirst wrote:
Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
pit that you haven't explained.

But I do agree with a previous poster, why would you put a generator into a
pit?


That's pretty much what I was thinking too. The genset only weighs 200
lbs. With 2 or 3 guys and one of those cable winchs you could lower it
in without steel I beams and a trolley hoist. Also curious as to why
the "hole in the ground" has a 10 foot span. That's one hell of a hole
in the ground. Maybe he's building a bomb shelter.

The hole is only 4 1/2 feet long (3 1/2 feet wide). So the trolley
hoist will span an additional space of 5 1/2 feet over flat ground.
The beam for the hoist is connected to a used painting scaffold that I
got for a good price. If I want to leave the hole uncovered then the
trolley would come in handy to move the generator over the hole and
then drop it in. Also, if I wind up needing to put some sandbags around
the hole to further reduce noise, then I can use the trolley hoist to
lift the generator over the sandbags.

I don't intend to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
way. I would just put it in there in the event of an extended outage. I
really don't normally have many people around that I could call on to
help me lift the generator.
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Jim Y
science forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152233484.097491.132810@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

YouGoFirst wrote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.


Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
pit that you haven't explained.

I'm retired and most of my relatives have moved out of state or died
off. I do have 3 close- by, likely suspects that would help me.
However, one of them has a very bad back and is currently putting off
surgery. The other one has a bad back, but works as a roofer foreman
and ignores it so I could use him, but he travels out of town a lot on
his job. The other one is usually close by, but 200 pounds is a lot for
2 people to lift in and out of a hole and my back isn't all that great.
I don't want to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
way.

The hole requires a roof anyway. So, it didn't seem like that big of a
deal to add the hoist. Another nice thing about a hoist is that I can
experiment with depth vs sound attenuation quite easily. It's a
judgement call. Once you get sucked into trying to reduce the sound on
these very loud generators, you make a lot of judgement calls.


But I do agree with a previous poster, why would you put a generator into a
pit?

Noise reduction. The whole problem is noise reduction and holes are
relatively cheap compared to other options and I have a relatively
large yard, too large really. These things are unbelievably loud--I
would guess twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower.

Have you considered a small block wall around the generator to direct the sound upwards. (Look at

the various highway sound deflecting walls.) You can make a roof that is light weight (aluminum
sheet metal) and designed to slide or hinged open like a clam shell. With a small "shed" you would
not necessarily have to move the generator, but leave it in the "shed" and ready to run in an
emergency. The walls would only have to be slightly higher than the height of the generator meaning
a door may not be required - open the roof and step over the wall. The roof could have a padlock to
keep unwanted guests out of the "shed".

Jim Y
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