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Magnetic Idyll
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Edward Green
science forum addict


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:

Quote:
Gamma radiation moves through a magnetic field in a ~straight~
line. Electrons and positrons spiral in opposite directions.
That doesn't necessarily mean e+ and e- has some independent
knowlege how to spiral. The experirment is ?always? near
atomic structures that can establish rotating domains with
their own nuclear spins and orbits.

Is it sufficient for positrons to be rotationally ignorant positive
'clouds' that normally would be bound up in baryons?
They learn their spins from neighboring entities that are
rotatiing? The uncertainty surrounding the interpretation
of Stern-Gerlach might be supportive of this notion.

My guess is that positrons and electrons indeed "know which way to
spiral", and that it is locked into their structure in relation to
whatever a magnetic field is. Is my guess better than your guess? Who
knows.
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Edward Green wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:

Gamma radiation moves through a magnetic field in a ~straight~
line. Electrons and positrons spiral in opposite directions.
That doesn't necessarily mean e+ and e- has some independent
knowlege how to spiral. The experirment is ?always? near
atomic structures that can establish rotating domains with
their own nuclear spins and orbits.

Is it sufficient for positrons to be rotationally ignorant positive
'clouds' that normally would be bound up in baryons?
They learn their spins from neighboring entities that are
rotatiing? The uncertainty surrounding the interpretation
of Stern-Gerlach might be supportive of this notion.

My guess is that positrons and electrons indeed "know which way to
spiral", and that it is locked into their structure in relation to
whatever a magnetic field is. Is my guess better than your guess? Who
knows.

So KST Sue and FrediFizzx seem in agreement but you say they
are defective. Surprised)

I think we three agreeable ones can make the case for fundamental
particle spin orientation 'inhereted' from the envirionment by
including the neighboring matter in the triple integral sumation
that would predict the magnetic force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_integral

An experiment or simulation to show your POV someway
needs to test for an intrinsic knowlege of rotation without
imparting a rotation. There is a good body of research
in the field of 'spin flipping' and one anomaly I recall was
the flipping all the electrons in an atom required only
little more energy than a single or pair. I was thinking
Pauli exclusion when I read it but it might be better interpreted
as FrediFizzx described.

If you know of an experiment that convincingly isolates
an electron and demonstrates intrinsic spin orientation,
that would settle the issue. I don't know of one but it
might be derivative of some of the spin flipping
experiments.

Sue...
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

"Edward Green" <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1153093494.806439.62900@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
FrediFizzx wrote:

"Edward Green" <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1153083565.999194.264570@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

IMHO, elementary particles are topological defects in the vacuum
(that
seems to be the modern way to say "medium"), their fields are the
common distortion associated with the proximity of these defects,
and
their conserved quantum numbers are some expression of both the
quantization of defects, and the impossibility of eliminating
these
defects unless opposite numbers happen to meet -- like a hole
anihilating an interstitial atom.

Well, I don't think I would exactly call the elementary quantum
objects
"defects". And assuming that by "vacuum" you mean quantum "vacuum".
But your viewpoint seems similar to mine roughly. But what does
this
have to do with fermion spin specifically?

Roughly similar to yours I think yes, which was why I mentioned it.
As
for the way you cautiously put "defects" in shudder quotes, I'm not
sure you know what I mean by the term. I think you take it I mean
there is something wrong with them! What I mean is something
analogous
to crystal defects. This idea is I think partially old, as there is
something called a "cosmic string", which is a very nasty and large
vacuum defect. What I am proposing is that all quantum particles (at
least those with rest mass) may eventually come to be considered
continuum or topolgical defects -- choose your modifier.

Yes, I suppose it does get tricky. If we consider the quantum "vacuum"
(QV) to be in a certain equilibrium, then from the QV perspective, you
probably could say topological defect. Of course from our perspective I
would say they are not.

Quote:
As for "vacuum" meaning "quantum vacuum", what's the distinction?
There is only one vacuum. As for what it has to do with fermion spin,
or spin period, I don't know in detail, but maybe you do.

For me, "vacuum" means the concept of nothingness. Like empty space.
The quantum "vacuum" is not that concept. I certainly have my ideas
about how it relates to fermion spin. Whether it is correct is to be
determined. It is quite a long story but the jist of it is that the
organized part of the quantum "vacuum" is what determines the properties
for real fermions. We call it the "Spin Matrix". It is more detailed
version of a modified Dirac Sea. Involving virtual and "less than
virtual" fermionic pairs. Spin is built into the organization so that
real fermions have the spin that the modified Dirac Sea "tells" it to
have. Electrons have confinement also in this picture.

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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Timo Nieminen
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 244

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

On Mon, 16 Jul 2006, Edward Green wrote:

Quote:
FrediFizzx wrote:

In a quantum "vacuum" relativistic medium viewpoint the medium and
fermion spin are linked together. IOW, without the relativistic medium,
fermions would have no spin. And not many other physical properties
either. The big question is what is a bare fermion? Are bare quarks
the same as bare leptons? IMHO, yes. But I could be wrong. Mother
nature could have given us all the spectrum of elementary quantum
objects as unique different entities.

IMHO, elementary particles are topological defects in the vacuum (that
seems to be the modern way to say "medium"), their fields are the
common distortion associated with the proximity of these defects, and
their conserved quantum numbers are some expression of both the
quantization of defects, and the impossibility of eliminating these
defects unless opposite numbers happen to meet -- like a hole
anihilating an interstitial atom.

Rafael Sorkin "On the relation between charge and topology"
Journal of Physics A: Mathematical and General 10(5),
717-725 (1977), erratum pg 795, J. Phys. A: Math. Gen., Vol. 11, No. 4,
1978.

Abstract:
The generalization of Stokes' theorem to non-orientable manifolds shows
that a suitable topology can appear to carry net electromagnetic charge.
By treating this as the origin of electric charge in nature one explains
the non-existence of magnetic monopoles.

--
Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
E-prints: http://eprint.uq.edu.au/view/person/Nieminen,_Timo_A..html
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html
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Bilge
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Edward Green:

Quote:

What I meant was, what about the ability of the associated force to do
work? We have zeroth order terms in velocity, work against a
potential; first order terms in velocity, no work; higher order
terms...?

I really don't understand the question. You have a force. Forces
do work if the line integral of an object subject to the force
is non-zero. When you refer to n-th order terms, you are referring to
some sort of expansion for an exact experssion that is too difficult
to solve analytically, but that is irrelevant to the question of
whether or not the individual terms contribute to any work done.
For that you have to integrate the force along the trajectory.
Forces which do no work can't change the energy, or the magnitude
of the momentum, only the direction of the momentum.

[...]

Quote:
I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc.

Only for those naive individuals who insist on classical analogues
for lack of understanding the highly non-classical data obtained from
experiments.

Quote:
It was to side-step such discussion that I phrased my condition
"circulation/angular momentum of charge".

You can't sidestep such a discussion, since it is impossible to
explain the current in a conductor as moving charge using only
classical E&M. If you look at maxwell's equations, you'll notice
that the source of the magnetostatic field is a ``stationary''
current density, J. For the magnetostatic case, curl B = J, so by
taking the divergence of both sides, you have div J = 0.

Try figuring out how free (or quasi-free) charges are bound to
a conductor using only classical E&M.

Quote:
The electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows
an angular momentum associated with a charge.

It's not mysterious and there is a difference between intrinsic
spin and a mechanical angular momentum.

Quote:
Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.

Then, I take it your purpose in posing your questions has nothing
to do with understanding electromagnetism.

Quote:
I have a suggestion for a textbook that would be ideal for you:
``Clifford Algebras and Spinors,'' Lounesto, P.

Heh. He used to post here, you know.

Yes, I know. But since he passed away a couple of years ago, his
posting frequency has declined substantially.

Quote:
I wonder if you suggest this because it would open new profound
intellectual vistas for me, or because, judging from this thread,
you have type-cast me as some kind of rotation crank. Wink

I own a copy of that book and I'm suggesting it in all seriousness.
(1) The contents fit this topic extremely well, (2) everything you have
posted is addressed in more detail than you can probably imagine
possible, (3) it's a good introduction to clifford algebras in its
own right.
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

"Timo Nieminen" <timo@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.50.0607171450380.20875-100000@localhost...
Quote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2006, Edward Green wrote:

FrediFizzx wrote:

In a quantum "vacuum" relativistic medium viewpoint the medium and
fermion spin are linked together. IOW, without the relativistic
medium,
fermions would have no spin. And not many other physical
properties
either. The big question is what is a bare fermion? Are bare
quarks
the same as bare leptons? IMHO, yes. But I could be wrong.
Mother
nature could have given us all the spectrum of elementary quantum
objects as unique different entities.

IMHO, elementary particles are topological defects in the vacuum
(that
seems to be the modern way to say "medium"), their fields are the
common distortion associated with the proximity of these defects,
and
their conserved quantum numbers are some expression of both the
quantization of defects, and the impossibility of eliminating these
defects unless opposite numbers happen to meet -- like a hole
anihilating an interstitial atom.

Rafael Sorkin "On the relation between charge and topology"
Journal of Physics A: Mathematical and General 10(5),
717-725 (1977), erratum pg 795, J. Phys. A: Math. Gen., Vol. 11, No.
4,
1978.

Abstract:
The generalization of Stokes' theorem to non-orientable manifolds
shows
that a suitable topology can appear to carry net electromagnetic
charge.
By treating this as the origin of electric charge in nature one
explains
the non-existence of magnetic monopoles.

G.E Volovik "The Universe in a Helium Droplet"; Part III "Topological
Defects" chapters 13 thru 17 is another good reference.
Much more here also.
http://arxiv.org/find/grp_physics/1/au:+volovik/0/1/0/all/0/1

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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PD
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Edward Green wrote:
Quote:
Bilge wrote:

How about this one: The electron has a magnetic moment, even in
its own rest frame. The magnetic moment cannot be due to moving
charge, since the upper limit on the electron charge radius is
about 5 x 10^-18 m.

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc. It was to side-step such discussion that
I phrased my condition "circulation/angular momentum of charge". The
electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows an angular
momentum associated with a charge.

Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.


Well, yes, in a way. There is an illuminating exercise. Let's suppose
that the rest mass of the electron (mc^2) is attributable to the
assemblage of charge to a small ball of radius r so that mc^2 = ke^2/r,
where 1/k = 4*pi*epsilon_0. This produces the so-called "classical
radius" of the electron: r = ke^2/(mc^2).

(Now we know experimentally that r for the electron is much, much
smaller than this, and furthermore we're assuming all the charge is on
the surface of the little ball, but correcting for this will only make
the problem worse, as you will see below.)

Now let's suppose that the *measured* spin of the electron (1/2)h-bar
is attributable to the rotation of this little charged ball, and
calculate what tangential velocity a point on the surface of the ball
would have to be.

The moment of inertia of a sphere is (2/5)mr^2, and so the angular
momentum would be
(2/5)mrv. Equating this to the measured spin, and subsituting in the
classical radius, we get
(1/2)h-bar = (2/5)m[ke^2/(mc^2)]v
or v = (5/4)(h-bar)c^2/(ke^2).

I invite you to plug the numbers into this formula.

This is one of the ways we know that the electron cannot be a little
spinning charged ball.

PD
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Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

PD wrote:
Quote:
Edward Green wrote:
Bilge wrote:

How about this one: The electron has a magnetic moment, even in
its own rest frame. The magnetic moment cannot be due to moving
charge, since the upper limit on the electron charge radius is
about 5 x 10^-18 m.

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc. It was to side-step such discussion that
I phrased my condition "circulation/angular momentum of charge". The
electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows an angular
momentum associated with a charge.

Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.


Well, yes, in a way. There is an illuminating exercise. Let's suppose
that the rest mass of the electron (mc^2) is attributable to the
assemblage of charge to a small ball of radius r so that mc^2 = ke^2/r,
where 1/k = 4*pi*epsilon_0. This produces the so-called "classical
radius" of the electron: r = ke^2/(mc^2).

(Now we know experimentally that r for the electron is much, much
smaller than this, and furthermore we're assuming all the charge is on
the surface of the little ball, but correcting for this will only make
the problem worse, as you will see below.)

Now let's suppose that the *measured* spin of the electron (1/2)h-bar
is attributable to the rotation of this little charged ball, and
calculate what tangential velocity a point on the surface of the ball
would have to be.

The moment of inertia of a sphere is (2/5)mr^2, and so the angular
momentum would be
(2/5)mrv. Equating this to the measured spin, and subsituting in the
classical radius, we get
(1/2)h-bar = (2/5)m[ke^2/(mc^2)]v
or v = (5/4)(h-bar)c^2/(ke^2).

I invite you to plug the numbers into this formula.

This is one of the ways we know that the electron cannot be a little
spinning charged ball.

PD

Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.
I use that for my mental model of an electron,
but I don't how to test or prove it aside from
the way it reacts with particles, particularily
in the case of positron-electron => gamma's.
Then one needs a similiar model for the
photon to transmute the configuration.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
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Bilge
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker:

Quote:
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.

Apparently not so clear that you couldn't mangle it.

Quote:
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron,

No, you can't. That configuration of charges has non-zero
electric multipole moments.

Quote:
I use a computer simulation to do that.

Then it should be trivial for you to find the multipole moments
for that configuration and realize that it does not agree with
experimental data.

Quote:
I use that for my mental model of an electron,
but I don't how to test or prove it aside from
the way it reacts with particles, particularily
in the case of positron-electron => gamma's.
Then one needs a similiar model for the
photon to transmute the configuration.

You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
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Edward Green
science forum addict


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Bilge wrote:

Quote:
Edward Green:


What I meant was, what about the ability of the associated force to do
work? We have zeroth order terms in velocity, work against a
potential; first order terms in velocity, no work; higher order
terms...?

I really don't understand the question.

Have you read the post I was responding to?

From: stevendaryl3...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough)
Subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll
Date: 11 Jul 2006 12:11:25 -0700
Message-ID: <e90t4t02t3a@drn.newsguy.com>

<...>

I detect a note of asperity. Are you miffed that I skipped over the
meatier portions of your posts? I meant to say that have grown
substantially (sincerely). But perhaps not in the ability to forgive
lack of immediate response to your displays of technical prowess.

Quote:
[...]

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc.

Only for those naive individuals who insist on classical analogues
for lack of understanding the highly non-classical data obtained from
experiments.

You forgot the smilie. I take it you were being ironic...

Quote:
It was to side-step such discussion that I phrased my condition
"circulation/angular momentum of charge".

You can't sidestep such a discussion,

I can't? You insist on being disputacious?

Quote:
since it is impossible to
explain the current in a conductor as moving charge using only
classical E&M.

That's a fairly surprising assertion.

Quote:
If you look at maxwell's equations, you'll notice
that the source of the magnetostatic field is a ``stationary''
current density, J. For the magnetostatic case, curl B = J, so by
taking the divergence of both sides, you have div J = 0.

Ok. Interesting. Magnetostatic => no change in rho (charge density).
Is that correct?

Quote:
Try figuring out how free (or quasi-free) charges are bound to
a conductor using only classical E&M.

Accepting for the sake of argument that this cannot be done, which
seems reasonable, this sounds to me, in my infinite ignorance,
something of a non-sequitor from the conclusion that div J = 0 if
(d/dt) B = 0. Nor do I see how it bears especially upon the question
of whether, and in what sense, a charged particle with spin can be said
to be rotating.

I shared with you my strategy for avoiding such a said discussion,
which was to phrase my hypothesis as "sources of magnetic field all
show circulation/angular momentum of charge", meaning, perhaps I did
not make it clear, that either condition would suffice. And, AFAIK,
electrons have intrinsic angular momentum.

Quote:
The electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows
an angular momentum associated with a charge.

It's not mysterious ...

Not at all? You must be smarter than Feynman!

You seem to have contracted contradiction disease.

Quote:
... and there is a difference between intrinsic
spin and a mechanical angular momentum.

You've grown quite a bit in technical apparatus, but not, I'm afraid,
in logical ability.

Well, you asked for it.

First of all, I find your modifiers meaningless. There is only "spin",
which is certainly intrinsic, but there is no other variety. Second...
I mean 1.b... there is, on some level, only one kind of angular
momentum. I only hedge "on some level" because there may be some way
you could usefully define "mechanical" angular momentum, but it is not
a conserved quantity. Angular momentum, which includes all conceivable
kinds of angular momentum, is a conserved quantity. Like all the best
conserved quantities, it's very democratic. It doesn't care if your
angular momentum is some exclusive intrinsic thingie and mine some
plain old swinging stick kind of angular momentum -- the're on the same
page. If I swing my stick, and somehow create an electron and a
positron in the process, then, in any inertial frame:

L_stick_in = L_stick_fin + L_p + L_e

Of course, we know that in any reference frame with the particles not
at the origin,

L_p = L_p_extrinsic + L_p_intrinsic, ... etc.

Where the "extrinsic" part corresponds to your vulgar mechanical
angular momentum, tossed about by the uncouth commoners at their quaint
festivals and unfit to dine at the same table as the intrinsic stuff.
Nonetheless, their money will both buy drinks at the bar. Move along,
govn'r.

So where in all this do you find objection to my assertion that
electron spin is associated with angular momentum? Did I say it was
associated with "extrinsic" or "mechanical" angular momentum, whatever
you may mean by that? That idea came from your mind, not my hand.

Think, then write.

Quote:
Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.

Then, I take it your purpose in posing your questions has nothing
to do with understanding electromagnetism.

That comment seems to bear no relation to the paragraph to which it is
appended. I skipped over the parts of your post I did not immediately
understand, but at least I left them without comment, and I recommend
this strategy to you also.

Bilge, you seem to be suffering from a common misconception, that since
you have bypassed me in some technical abilities I am therefore more
naive than you in all things, and in particular must be suffering from
all the stereotypical defects of whatever cranks you imagine yourself
superior to. Your non-sequitors have sound but little sense.

Come back to talk with me when you have grown some more -- another
twenty or thirty years may suffice. Or at least, like Lounesto, I will
be beyond your ability to annoy.

Quote:
I have a suggestion for a textbook that would be ideal for you:
``Clifford Algebras and Spinors,'' Lounesto, P.

Heh. He used to post here, you know.

Yes, I know. But since he passed away a couple of years ago, his
posting frequency has declined substantially.

I didn't know that.
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
news:1153145485.866766.98610@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

PD wrote:
Edward Green wrote:
Bilge wrote:

How about this one: The electron has a magnetic moment, even
in
its own rest frame. The magnetic moment cannot be due to moving
charge, since the upper limit on the electron charge radius is
about 5 x 10^-18 m.

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary
particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion
would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc. It was to side-step such discussion
that
I phrased my condition "circulation/angular momentum of charge".
The
electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows an
angular
momentum associated with a charge.

Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as
productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we
are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits
some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is
just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no
medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite.
The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.


Well, yes, in a way. There is an illuminating exercise. Let's
suppose
that the rest mass of the electron (mc^2) is attributable to the
assemblage of charge to a small ball of radius r so that mc^2 =
ke^2/r,
where 1/k = 4*pi*epsilon_0. This produces the so-called "classical
radius" of the electron: r = ke^2/(mc^2).

(Now we know experimentally that r for the electron is much, much
smaller than this, and furthermore we're assuming all the charge is
on
the surface of the little ball, but correcting for this will only
make
the problem worse, as you will see below.)

Now let's suppose that the *measured* spin of the electron
(1/2)h-bar
is attributable to the rotation of this little charged ball, and
calculate what tangential velocity a point on the surface of the
ball
would have to be.

The moment of inertia of a sphere is (2/5)mr^2, and so the angular
momentum would be
(2/5)mrv. Equating this to the measured spin, and subsituting in the
classical radius, we get
(1/2)h-bar = (2/5)m[ke^2/(mc^2)]v
or v = (5/4)(h-bar)c^2/(ke^2).

I invite you to plug the numbers into this formula.

This is one of the ways we know that the electron cannot be a little
spinning charged ball.

PD

Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
....
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.
Best Regards
Ken S. Tucker

Quote:
Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Back to top
Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Quote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction. If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.


My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.
See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.

See if this is not a better tool.
http://newton.umsl.edu/~philf/triplet.html

Could we not speak unambiguously about
the spin orientation of an isolated e+ e- pair
but it has less and less definition as
let more charges into the neighborhood?

I think FreddiFizzx and Sue are on the same side of
the fence and KST may be sitting on the fence.

That is actually a reasonable posture if the
the little critters remember their angular
momentum but that momentum's existence
and axis is dependent on the existence and
position of their opposite charged siblings.

Indeed, if you are marketing one-legged pants to
all the average families that have 2.5 children,
I can see why your POV might be an unpopular one.
Surprised)


Sue...


Quote:
Best Regards
Ken S. Tucker

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Back to top
Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:
Quote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

Quote:
If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

Quote:
My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

Quote:
See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.

Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+).

Quote:
See if this is not a better tool.
http://newton.umsl.edu/~philf/triplet.html

ok

Quote:
Could we not speak unambiguously about
the spin orientation of an isolated e+ e- pair
but it has less and less definition as
let more charges into the neighborhood?

Well it does get more complicated.

Quote:
I think FreddiFizzx and Sue are on the same side of
the fence and KST may be sitting on the fence.

Well yeah, science is served by an open mind,
and consideration of many solutions.

Quote:
That is actually a reasonable posture if the
the little critters remember their angular
momentum but that momentum's existence
and axis is dependent on the existence and
position of their opposite charged siblings.

ok

Quote:
Indeed, if you are marketing one-legged pants to
all the average families that have 2.5 children,
I can see why your POV might be an unpopular one.
Surprised)
LOL, we got a kick out of that *one*.

((A one legged man in an ass kicking contest Smile)

Quote:
Sue...
Ken
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Edward Green
science forum addict


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:

Quote:
I think we three agreeable ones can make the case for fundamental
particle spin orientation 'inhereted' from the envirionment by
including the neighboring matter in the triple integral sumation
that would predict the magnetic force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_integral

Let me clarify something -- maybe our views are more similar.

First, I have to make an obligatory and recurring propitiation to the
gods, and say that I realize swapping views like this makes us sound
like the ancient Greek philosophers -- "I think the universe is made
out of water". "I say it is fire". -- though in truth maybe even the
ancient Greeks were smarter than they sound through 2500+ years of the
game of telephone and fragmentary sources. We are saying that "Our
best personal guesses, presented merely in the spirit of friendly
speculation, are that a correct quantitative model of the universe
could be described in these terms without undue violence to words".

If I say an electron represents a topological defect in space, then in
a strong sense it inherits its properties in relation to the
surrounding space. At this point I stopped to look up a cluster of
ideas which relate to "Balinese candle dance", and although I can do
the manuver, I can't feel I really understand why it works out this
way. But the fact that spin 1/2 particles apparently return to
themselves after a 4pi rotation, but not 2pi, is another hint that
their properties are determined by their relation to their
surroundings.

Quote:
An experiment or simulation to show your POV someway
needs to test for an intrinsic knowlege of rotation without
imparting a rotation. There is a good body of research
in the field of 'spin flipping' and one anomaly I recall was
the flipping all the electrons in an atom required only
little more energy than a single or pair. I was thinking
Pauli exclusion when I read it but it might be better interpreted
as FrediFizzx described.

If you know of an experiment that convincingly isolates
an electron and demonstrates intrinsic spin orientation,
that would settle the issue. I don't know of one but it
might be derivative of some of the spin flipping
experiments.
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