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Magnetic Idyll
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.


Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+).

This is where I 'accuse' Smile you of fence-sitting.
You are using the word 'revolve' perhaps without intending,
to describe a 2D entity. I am taking the position
that a single electron or positron has nothing it
can rotate or revolve. My POV is electron spin
can't be described in terms of an axis through the
particle. We allude to that description for what
might more realistically be described as a motion
of the electron's center established by neighboring
entities which *do* have the spatial definiton to
rotate. If we naievly assume an indivdual electron
is spherical, is looks the same from any angle.
It has no intrinsic axis but it does have a center.

The quantum description imbues the electron
with a pseudo-axis so it can mathematically
represent its environment, even when
mathematically severed from its environment.

Using the term 'orbit' instead of 'revolve' seems
just as incorrect but at least it describes motion
*of* the center as opposed to motion *about* the
center.

You'll point out 'it is all relative anyway' and that
is probably the source of the confusion. Your
~point~ of reference is slightly different and
still retains the ability to assume a pseudo-axis,
inherited from a QM description? ???

If revolve is something between rotate and orbit
then I'll withdraw my charges of fence-sitting.

The assumption of those embracing the simple
point concept for an electron, and then whine
that it has infinite density get what they want,
GR flunks there...duh.
The electron structure can be investigated
by positrons.

Indeed... And does the foregoing suggest that our failure
to 'conjure' up particle-pairs in free space, might be beacuse
positve ~stuff~ and negative ~stuff~ has a unique
sub-fermion identity.

Yes, I think that's a reasonable hypothesis.

Are nuclei really magnetic bottles that keep the positive
~stuff~ away from all the electons that fog up our normal
space. Our particle accelerator knocks the positive
stuff out of one magnetic bottle (the nucleus) and we
catch it in another macro magnetic bottle.

Nuclear physics is much more accessible
to measurement than electron or proton
structure and is a complex of those, so I
think we're deviating.

Speak for youself. I may be a little kinky but your the first to
call me a deviant. Surprised) Are hydrogen atoms deviants too?
Quote:

That notion dosen't bode well for possibility of virtual particles
ever 'winking' into existance or the possibility of 'conjuring'
particles pairs in nothingness but the witnesses those
phenomena number about the same as witnesses to detection
of gravity waves. ;-)

Yeah,
I think "virtual particles" is a mathematical
interpretation that allows the concept of a
field to exist...and that LIGO has been too
quiet.

The Coulomb field can exist without them.
and you can illuminate mirrors better that
way too.

Quote:

Sue...

Magnetic Bottle
http://www.physics.miami.edu/~zuo/class/fall_05/supplement/Figure27_17.jpg

Hamiltonian_5 is the magnetic moment spin-spin interaction.
The first term is called the contact interaction, because it is
nonzero only when the particles are at the same position; the
second term is the interaction of the classical dipole-dipole type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

Thank you for the refs, did you want a naive
comment?

No... Let's gaze at pretty pictures instead.
<< Theoretical estimates of the electron density for the
first few hydrogen atom electron orbitals shown as
cross-sections with color-coded probability density >>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

Sue...

> KST
Back to top
Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:
Quote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.


Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+).

This is where I 'accuse' Smile you of fence-sitting.
You are using the word 'revolve' perhaps without intending,
to describe a 2D entity. I am taking the position
that a single electron or positron has nothing it
can rotate or revolve. My POV is electron spin
can't be described in terms of an axis through the
particle. We allude to that description for what
might more realistically be described as a motion
of the electron's center established by neighboring
entities which *do* have the spatial definiton to
rotate. If we naievly assume an indivdual electron
is spherical, is looks the same from any angle.
It has no intrinsic axis but it does have a center.

The quantum description imbues the electron
with a pseudo-axis so it can mathematically
represent its environment, even when
mathematically severed from its environment.

Using the term 'orbit' instead of 'revolve' seems
just as incorrect but at least it describes motion
*of* the center as opposed to motion *about* the
center.

You'll point out 'it is all relative anyway' and that
is probably the source of the confusion. Your
~point~ of reference is slightly different and
still retains the ability to assume a pseudo-axis,
inherited from a QM description? ???

If revolve is something between rotate and orbit
then I'll withdraw my charges of fence-sitting.

The assumption of those embracing the simple
point concept for an electron, and then whine
that it has infinite density get what they want,
GR flunks there...duh.
The electron structure can be investigated
by positrons.

Indeed... And does the foregoing suggest that our failure
to 'conjure' up particle-pairs in free space, might be beacuse
positve ~stuff~ and negative ~stuff~ has a unique
sub-fermion identity.

Yes, I think that's a reasonable hypothesis.

Quote:
Are nuclei really magnetic bottles that keep the positive
~stuff~ away from all the electons that fog up our normal
space. Our particle accelerator knocks the positive
stuff out of one magnetic bottle (the nucleus) and we
catch it in another macro magnetic bottle.

Nuclear physics is much more accessible
to measurement than electron or proton
structure and is a complex of those, so I
think we're deviating.

Quote:
That notion dosen't bode well for possibility of virtual particles
ever 'winking' into existance or the possibility of 'conjuring'
particles pairs in nothingness but the witnesses those
phenomena number about the same as witnesses to detection
of gravity waves. Wink

Yeah,
I think "virtual particles" is a mathematical
interpretation that allows the concept of a
field to exist...and that LIGO has been too
quiet.

Quote:
Sue...

Magnetic Bottle
http://www.physics.miami.edu/~zuo/class/fall_05/supplement/Figure27_17.jpg

Hamiltonian_5 is the magnetic moment spin-spin interaction.
The first term is called the contact interaction, because it is
nonzero only when the particles are at the same position; the
second term is the interaction of the classical dipole-dipole type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

Thank you for the refs, did you want a naive
comment?
KST
Back to top
Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.


Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+).

This is where I 'accuse' Smile you of fence-sitting.
You are using the word 'revolve' perhaps without intending,
to describe a 2D entity. I am taking the position
that a single electron or positron has nothing it
can rotate or revolve. My POV is electron spin
can't be described in terms of an axis through the
particle. We allude to that description for what
might more realistically be described as a motion
of the electron's center established by neighboring
entities which *do* have the spatial definiton to
rotate. If we naievly assume an indivdual electron
is spherical, is looks the same from any angle.
It has no intrinsic axis but it does have a center.

The quantum description imbues the electron
with a pseudo-axis so it can mathematically
represent its environment, even when
mathematically severed from its environment.

Using the term 'orbit' instead of 'revolve' seems
just as incorrect but at least it describes motion
*of* the center as opposed to motion *about* the
center.

You'll point out 'it is all relative anyway' and that
is probably the source of the confusion. Your
~point~ of reference is slightly different and
still retains the ability to assume a pseudo-axis,
inherited from a QM description? ???

If revolve is something between rotate and orbit
then I'll withdraw my charges of fence-sitting.

The assumption of those embracing the simple
point concept for an electron, and then whine
that it has infinite density get what they want,
GR flunks there...duh.
The electron structure can be investigated
by positrons.

Indeed... And does the foregoing suggest that our failure
to 'conjure' up particle-pairs in free space, might be beacuse
positve ~stuff~ and negative ~stuff~ has a unique
sub-fermion identity.

Are nuclei really magnetic bottles that keep the positive
~stuff~ away from all the electons that fog up our normal
space. Our particle accelerator knocks the positive
stuff out of one magnetic bottle (the nucleus) and we
catch it in another macro magnetic bottle.

That notion dosen't bode well for possibility of virtual particles
ever 'winking' into existance or the possibility of 'conjuring'
particles pairs in nothingness but the witnesses those
phenomena number about the same as witnesses to detection
of gravity waves. ;-)

Sue...


Magnetic Bottle
http://www.physics.miami.edu/~zuo/class/fall_05/supplement/Figure27_17.jpg

<< Hamiltonian_5 is the magnetic moment spin-spin interaction.
The first term is called the contact interaction, because it is
nonzero only when the particles are at the same position; the
second term is the interaction of the classical dipole-dipole type. >>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation


Quote:
Ken
...
Back to top
Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:
Quote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.


Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+).

This is where I 'accuse' Smile you of fence-sitting.
You are using the word 'revolve' perhaps without intending,
to describe a 2D entity. I am taking the position
that a single electron or positron has nothing it
can rotate or revolve. My POV is electron spin
can't be described in terms of an axis through the
particle. We allude to that description for what
might more realistically be described as a motion
of the electron's center established by neighboring
entities which *do* have the spatial definiton to
rotate. If we naievly assume an indivdual electron
is spherical, is looks the same from any angle.
It has no intrinsic axis but it does have a center.

The quantum description imbues the electron
with a pseudo-axis so it can mathematically
represent its environment, even when
mathematically severed from its environment.

Using the term 'orbit' instead of 'revolve' seems
just as incorrect but at least it describes motion
*of* the center as opposed to motion *about* the
center.

You'll point out 'it is all relative anyway' and that
is probably the source of the confusion. Your
~point~ of reference is slightly different and
still retains the ability to assume a pseudo-axis,
inherited from a QM description? ???

If revolve is something between rotate and orbit
then I'll withdraw my charges of fence-sitting.

The assumption of those embracing the simple
point concept for an electron, and then whine
that it has infinite density get what they want,
GR flunks there...duh.
The electron structure can be investigated
by positrons.
Ken
....
Back to top
Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.


<< Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+). >>

This is where I 'accuse' Smile you of fence-sitting.
You are using the word 'revolve' perhaps without intending,
to describe a 2D entity. I am taking the position
that a single electron or positron has nothing it
can rotate or revolve. My POV is electron spin
can't be described in terms of an axis through the
particle. We allude to that description for what
might more realistically be described as a motion
of the electron's center established by neighboring
entities which *do* have the spatial definiton to
rotate. If we naievly assume an indivdual electron
is spherical, is looks the same from any angle.
It has no intrinsic axis but it does have a center.

The quantum description imbues the electron
with a pseudo-axis so it can mathematically
represent its environment, even when
mathematically severed from its environment.

Using the term 'orbit' instead of 'revolve' seems
just as incorrect but at least it describes motion
*of* the center as opposed to motion *about* the
center.

You'll point out 'it is all relative anyway' and that
is probably the source of the confusion. Your
~point~ of reference is slightly different and
still retains the ability to assume a pseudo-axis,
inherited from a QM description? ???

If revolve is something between rotate and orbit
then I'll withdraw my charges of fence-sitting.

Quote:

See if this is not a better tool.
http://newton.umsl.edu/~philf/triplet.html

ok

Could we not speak unambiguously about
the spin orientation of an isolated e+ e- pair
but it has less and less definition as
let more charges into the neighborhood?

Well it does get more complicated.

I think FreddiFizzx and Sue are on the same side of
the fence and KST may be sitting on the fence.

Well yeah, science is served by an open mind,
and consideration of many solutions.

That is actually a reasonable posture if the
the little critters remember their angular
momentum but that momentum's existence
and axis is dependent on the existence and
position of their opposite charged siblings.

ok

Indeed, if you are marketing one-legged pants to
all the average families that have 2.5 children,
I can see why your POV might be an unpopular one.
Surprised)
LOL, we got a kick out of that *one*.
((A one legged man in an ass kicking contest Smile)

....or as I applaude most of the posts in these
news groups... one hand clapping. >:-)

Sue...

Quote:

Sue...
Ken
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Edward Green wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:

I think we three agreeable ones can make the case for fundamental
particle spin orientation 'inhereted' from the envirionment by
including the neighboring matter in the triple integral sumation
that would predict the magnetic force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_integral

Let me clarify something -- maybe our views are more similar.

First, I have to make an obligatory and recurring propitiation to the
gods, and say that I realize swapping views like this makes us sound
like the ancient Greek philosophers -- "I think the universe is made
out of water". "I say it is fire". -- though in truth maybe even the
ancient Greeks were smarter than they sound through 2500+ years of the
game of telephone and fragmentary sources. We are saying that "Our
best personal guesses, presented merely in the spirit of friendly
speculation, are that a correct quantitative model of the universe
could be described in these terms without undue violence to words".



The various 'views' are no more philosopical than a bird that says
a house appears to be roofing shingles but the dog says it is
windows and doors. Using names is not to take a vote or assign
guilt. The name Mach tells you something about what will be
considered background and foreground. The name Einstein
will apportion background and forground differently but it
will refer to the same universe.

In the context of this thread, FrediFizzx and KST indicate they
are separating background and foreground slightly differently
and their context or *point* of veiw has be included or some
meaning is lost. Literally their *point* of view represents a point
in space. but instead of a Cartesian point, they see different
background from any arbitrary Cartesian point. Ask them to derive
eps_0 and mu_0, they will arrive at equivalent formula, but
possibly by a different sequence of operations.

Quote:

If I say an electron represents a topological defect in space, then in
a strong sense it inherits its properties in relation to the
surrounding space.

Indeed, this is the concept I was trying to highlight. An
electron is only half of a functional entity. In more cases
than not, we should be paying attention to how its other
half is distributed and what it is doing.

Quote:
At this point I stopped to look up a cluster of
ideas which relate to "Balinese candle dance", and although I can do
the manuver, I can't feel I really understand why it works out this
way. But the fact that spin 1/2 particles apparently return to
themselves after a 4pi rotation, but not 2pi, is another hint that
their properties are determined by their relation to their
surroundings.

A fundamental particle's most important characteristic is
is its coupling to other regions. The fundamental particle
can have an existance only if the coupled regions exactly
balance. (conservation of charge). Half (using the
word to distinguish from your factor 1/2 with pi above) ... half the
fundamental particle's properties are distributed out to remote
spaces, because it is nothing without that coupling. I seem to
have ignored your gyrations with pi. Not to be rude, but because
I don't see how I can do it if I only speak about 2D entities,
electrons and positrons. Does that tell us something about
real-world backgrounds and where the orientation of a spin is
localised to? (orbits an nuclei ? )



A quantum model will invent pseudo-particles, assign them
absurd properties and do all things reasonable and unreasonable
to preserve its claim to fame, the application of probability
and statistics to processes with little or no knowlege of
the process's mechanism. The way one backs up from
the quantum model, to recover some spatial context, places
an imense burded on us to adjust for the unfounded
assumptions QM. Fractional children don't exist but
if want accurately provision an automoble caravan of
children to the planetarium, we assume they do.

If the planetaruim is cold and we pass out fractional
sweaters to the children, then we have taken our
assumptions too seriously.

QED is the premier example, of course. Its photons wear
wrist watches, carry magnetic monopoles and explore
all paths yet it has some legitimate claim to the most
successful theory ever.

Sue...
<<When the body rotates we can transform the equations
of motion to a co-rotating system, in which it is at rest, but
in this system the particles will be affected by a Coriolis force ()
Larmor's theorem teaches us that such a Coriolis force
is equivalent to an external magnetic field. Magnetic fields
are, however, not allowed inside superconductors according
to the Meissner effect. To get rid of the Coriolis forces the
rotation induces surface supercurrents that produce a suitable
compensating magnetic field B. >>
"Circulating electrons, superconductivity,
and the Darwin-Breit interaction "
--Hanno Essen
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0002096

[coherent matter and London effects]
http://www.citebase.org/cgi-bin/citations?id=oai:arXiv.org:physics/0107015
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/Bizarre/GRAV.htm
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

Quote:

An experiment or simulation to show your POV someway
needs to test for an intrinsic knowlege of rotation without
imparting a rotation. There is a good body of research
in the field of 'spin flipping' and one anomaly I recall was
the flipping all the electrons in an atom required only
little more energy than a single or pair. I was thinking
Pauli exclusion when I read it but it might be better interpreted
as FrediFizzx described.

If you know of an experiment that convincingly isolates
an electron and demonstrates intrinsic spin orientation,
that would settle the issue. I don't know of one but it
might be derivative of some of the spin flipping
experiments.
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Edward Green
science forum addict


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:

Quote:
I think we three agreeable ones can make the case for fundamental
particle spin orientation 'inhereted' from the envirionment by
including the neighboring matter in the triple integral sumation
that would predict the magnetic force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_integral

Let me clarify something -- maybe our views are more similar.

First, I have to make an obligatory and recurring propitiation to the
gods, and say that I realize swapping views like this makes us sound
like the ancient Greek philosophers -- "I think the universe is made
out of water". "I say it is fire". -- though in truth maybe even the
ancient Greeks were smarter than they sound through 2500+ years of the
game of telephone and fragmentary sources. We are saying that "Our
best personal guesses, presented merely in the spirit of friendly
speculation, are that a correct quantitative model of the universe
could be described in these terms without undue violence to words".

If I say an electron represents a topological defect in space, then in
a strong sense it inherits its properties in relation to the
surrounding space. At this point I stopped to look up a cluster of
ideas which relate to "Balinese candle dance", and although I can do
the manuver, I can't feel I really understand why it works out this
way. But the fact that spin 1/2 particles apparently return to
themselves after a 4pi rotation, but not 2pi, is another hint that
their properties are determined by their relation to their
surroundings.

Quote:
An experiment or simulation to show your POV someway
needs to test for an intrinsic knowlege of rotation without
imparting a rotation. There is a good body of research
in the field of 'spin flipping' and one anomaly I recall was
the flipping all the electrons in an atom required only
little more energy than a single or pair. I was thinking
Pauli exclusion when I read it but it might be better interpreted
as FrediFizzx described.

If you know of an experiment that convincingly isolates
an electron and demonstrates intrinsic spin orientation,
that would settle the issue. I don't know of one but it
might be derivative of some of the spin flipping
experiments.
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Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:
Quote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction.

I think I avoided "self interaction" by relying
on charge relations.

Quote:
If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.

There is no +GR vs -GR that I used, unless
you could be more specific.

Quote:
My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.

Yes I agree.

Quote:
See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.

Just means charges (a) and (b) spin revolve
twice as fast as the charge (+).

Quote:
See if this is not a better tool.
http://newton.umsl.edu/~philf/triplet.html

ok

Quote:
Could we not speak unambiguously about
the spin orientation of an isolated e+ e- pair
but it has less and less definition as
let more charges into the neighborhood?

Well it does get more complicated.

Quote:
I think FreddiFizzx and Sue are on the same side of
the fence and KST may be sitting on the fence.

Well yeah, science is served by an open mind,
and consideration of many solutions.

Quote:
That is actually a reasonable posture if the
the little critters remember their angular
momentum but that momentum's existence
and axis is dependent on the existence and
position of their opposite charged siblings.

ok

Quote:
Indeed, if you are marketing one-legged pants to
all the average families that have 2.5 children,
I can see why your POV might be an unpopular one.
Surprised)
LOL, we got a kick out of that *one*.

((A one legged man in an ass kicking contest Smile)

Quote:
Sue...
Ken
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Quote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
...
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.

Ken S. Tucker,
You earlier made a statement to the effect:

~charge is charge, is only in relation to something else~.

That was the basis I used in concluding that Freddi
Sue and KST share the same view of electron/positron
spin. But you are saying something in your GR
shoe-horning that implies self interaction. If you
can apply +GR and -GR for e+ and e- it would remove
self interaction but I couldn't divine that from your
discussion.


My POV is that electron/positron spin *number* is
intrinsic to the ~structure~ but the orientation is
a function of the dielectric background.
See the spin-orbit comments here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breit_equation

The energy necessary to flip spins in an
ensemble seems to support that notion.

I can't, with any fidelity, translate your ascii
array above to follow your discussion.
It is a valiant attempt however.

See if this is not a better tool.
http://newton.umsl.edu/~philf/triplet.html

Could we not speak unambiguously about
the spin orientation of an isolated e+ e- pair
but it has less and less definition as
let more charges into the neighborhood?

I think FreddiFizzx and Sue are on the same side of
the fence and KST may be sitting on the fence.

That is actually a reasonable posture if the
the little critters remember their angular
momentum but that momentum's existence
and axis is dependent on the existence and
position of their opposite charged siblings.

Indeed, if you are marketing one-legged pants to
all the average families that have 2.5 children,
I can see why your POV might be an unpopular one.
Surprised)


Sue...


Quote:
Best Regards
Ken S. Tucker

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote:
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
....
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.
FrediFizzx

Yes Fred thanks. I reason the electron has intrinsic
spin I'll diagram using (a) and (b) as negative charges,
and cycles like,

(+) (+) (b)(a) (a)(b) (+)...........
(a)(b) (b)(a) (+) (+) (a)(b).........

yielding intrinsic spin and mass, and an
associated characteristic frequency relating
the rate of the spin (a)(b) to (+) that is
the instrinsic spin, because they have a
ratio of 1/2 as in the diagram as you can see.
The "characteristic frequency" is E=h*f.
That also provides the magnetic pole and
the angular momentum, which is a multipole
effect, and is evident in the super-conductive
Cooper pair state.
Fred, I should add that this is my personal
working model that Edward asked about in
his OP, FWIW, but I see no major problem
making it Generally Relativistic based on
the same theory that we posted at your site,

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/KST/GR_Charge_Couple3.pdf

What's unpopular about my approach is the
use of nonsymmetrical metrics to model EM,
but that's how I build an electron Smile, to each
his own.
Best Regards
Ken S. Tucker

Quote:
Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
news:1153145485.866766.98610@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

PD wrote:
Edward Green wrote:
Bilge wrote:

How about this one: The electron has a magnetic moment, even
in
its own rest frame. The magnetic moment cannot be due to moving
charge, since the upper limit on the electron charge radius is
about 5 x 10^-18 m.

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary
particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion
would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc. It was to side-step such discussion
that
I phrased my condition "circulation/angular momentum of charge".
The
electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows an
angular
momentum associated with a charge.

Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as
productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we
are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits
some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is
just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no
medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite.
The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.


Well, yes, in a way. There is an illuminating exercise. Let's
suppose
that the rest mass of the electron (mc^2) is attributable to the
assemblage of charge to a small ball of radius r so that mc^2 =
ke^2/r,
where 1/k = 4*pi*epsilon_0. This produces the so-called "classical
radius" of the electron: r = ke^2/(mc^2).

(Now we know experimentally that r for the electron is much, much
smaller than this, and furthermore we're assuming all the charge is
on
the surface of the little ball, but correcting for this will only
make
the problem worse, as you will see below.)

Now let's suppose that the *measured* spin of the electron
(1/2)h-bar
is attributable to the rotation of this little charged ball, and
calculate what tangential velocity a point on the surface of the
ball
would have to be.

The moment of inertia of a sphere is (2/5)mr^2, and so the angular
momentum would be
(2/5)mrv. Equating this to the measured spin, and subsituting in the
classical radius, we get
(1/2)h-bar = (2/5)m[ke^2/(mc^2)]v
or v = (5/4)(h-bar)c^2/(ke^2).

I invite you to plug the numbers into this formula.

This is one of the ways we know that the electron cannot be a little
spinning charged ball.

PD

Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.

Ken, it is not quite that simple. It has to be all bound charge
surrounding the (+) otherwise you will have a multipole config.

FrediFizzx

Quantum Vacuum Charge papers;
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0601110
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
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Edward Green
science forum addict


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Bilge wrote:

Quote:
Edward Green:


What I meant was, what about the ability of the associated force to do
work? We have zeroth order terms in velocity, work against a
potential; first order terms in velocity, no work; higher order
terms...?

I really don't understand the question.

Have you read the post I was responding to?

From: stevendaryl3...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough)
Subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll
Date: 11 Jul 2006 12:11:25 -0700
Message-ID: <e90t4t02t3a@drn.newsguy.com>

<...>

I detect a note of asperity. Are you miffed that I skipped over the
meatier portions of your posts? I meant to say that have grown
substantially (sincerely). But perhaps not in the ability to forgive
lack of immediate response to your displays of technical prowess.

Quote:
[...]

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc.

Only for those naive individuals who insist on classical analogues
for lack of understanding the highly non-classical data obtained from
experiments.

You forgot the smilie. I take it you were being ironic...

Quote:
It was to side-step such discussion that I phrased my condition
"circulation/angular momentum of charge".

You can't sidestep such a discussion,

I can't? You insist on being disputacious?

Quote:
since it is impossible to
explain the current in a conductor as moving charge using only
classical E&M.

That's a fairly surprising assertion.

Quote:
If you look at maxwell's equations, you'll notice
that the source of the magnetostatic field is a ``stationary''
current density, J. For the magnetostatic case, curl B = J, so by
taking the divergence of both sides, you have div J = 0.

Ok. Interesting. Magnetostatic => no change in rho (charge density).
Is that correct?

Quote:
Try figuring out how free (or quasi-free) charges are bound to
a conductor using only classical E&M.

Accepting for the sake of argument that this cannot be done, which
seems reasonable, this sounds to me, in my infinite ignorance,
something of a non-sequitor from the conclusion that div J = 0 if
(d/dt) B = 0. Nor do I see how it bears especially upon the question
of whether, and in what sense, a charged particle with spin can be said
to be rotating.

I shared with you my strategy for avoiding such a said discussion,
which was to phrase my hypothesis as "sources of magnetic field all
show circulation/angular momentum of charge", meaning, perhaps I did
not make it clear, that either condition would suffice. And, AFAIK,
electrons have intrinsic angular momentum.

Quote:
The electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows
an angular momentum associated with a charge.

It's not mysterious ...

Not at all? You must be smarter than Feynman!

You seem to have contracted contradiction disease.

Quote:
... and there is a difference between intrinsic
spin and a mechanical angular momentum.

You've grown quite a bit in technical apparatus, but not, I'm afraid,
in logical ability.

Well, you asked for it.

First of all, I find your modifiers meaningless. There is only "spin",
which is certainly intrinsic, but there is no other variety. Second...
I mean 1.b... there is, on some level, only one kind of angular
momentum. I only hedge "on some level" because there may be some way
you could usefully define "mechanical" angular momentum, but it is not
a conserved quantity. Angular momentum, which includes all conceivable
kinds of angular momentum, is a conserved quantity. Like all the best
conserved quantities, it's very democratic. It doesn't care if your
angular momentum is some exclusive intrinsic thingie and mine some
plain old swinging stick kind of angular momentum -- the're on the same
page. If I swing my stick, and somehow create an electron and a
positron in the process, then, in any inertial frame:

L_stick_in = L_stick_fin + L_p + L_e

Of course, we know that in any reference frame with the particles not
at the origin,

L_p = L_p_extrinsic + L_p_intrinsic, ... etc.

Where the "extrinsic" part corresponds to your vulgar mechanical
angular momentum, tossed about by the uncouth commoners at their quaint
festivals and unfit to dine at the same table as the intrinsic stuff.
Nonetheless, their money will both buy drinks at the bar. Move along,
govn'r.

So where in all this do you find objection to my assertion that
electron spin is associated with angular momentum? Did I say it was
associated with "extrinsic" or "mechanical" angular momentum, whatever
you may mean by that? That idea came from your mind, not my hand.

Think, then write.

Quote:
Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.

Then, I take it your purpose in posing your questions has nothing
to do with understanding electromagnetism.

That comment seems to bear no relation to the paragraph to which it is
appended. I skipped over the parts of your post I did not immediately
understand, but at least I left them without comment, and I recommend
this strategy to you also.

Bilge, you seem to be suffering from a common misconception, that since
you have bypassed me in some technical abilities I am therefore more
naive than you in all things, and in particular must be suffering from
all the stereotypical defects of whatever cranks you imagine yourself
superior to. Your non-sequitors have sound but little sense.

Come back to talk with me when you have grown some more -- another
twenty or thirty years may suffice. Or at least, like Lounesto, I will
be beyond your ability to annoy.

Quote:
I have a suggestion for a textbook that would be ideal for you:
``Clifford Algebras and Spinors,'' Lounesto, P.

Heh. He used to post here, you know.

Yes, I know. But since he passed away a couple of years ago, his
posting frequency has declined substantially.

I didn't know that.
Back to top
Bilge
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Ken S. Tucker:

Quote:
Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.

Apparently not so clear that you couldn't mangle it.

Quote:
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron,

No, you can't. That configuration of charges has non-zero
electric multipole moments.

Quote:
I use a computer simulation to do that.

Then it should be trivial for you to find the multipole moments
for that configuration and realize that it does not agree with
experimental data.

Quote:
I use that for my mental model of an electron,
but I don't how to test or prove it aside from
the way it reacts with particles, particularily
in the case of positron-electron => gamma's.
Then one needs a similiar model for the
photon to transmute the configuration.

You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
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Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

PD wrote:
Quote:
Edward Green wrote:
Bilge wrote:

How about this one: The electron has a magnetic moment, even in
its own rest frame. The magnetic moment cannot be due to moving
charge, since the upper limit on the electron charge radius is
about 5 x 10^-18 m.

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc. It was to side-step such discussion that
I phrased my condition "circulation/angular momentum of charge". The
electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows an angular
momentum associated with a charge.

Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.


Well, yes, in a way. There is an illuminating exercise. Let's suppose
that the rest mass of the electron (mc^2) is attributable to the
assemblage of charge to a small ball of radius r so that mc^2 = ke^2/r,
where 1/k = 4*pi*epsilon_0. This produces the so-called "classical
radius" of the electron: r = ke^2/(mc^2).

(Now we know experimentally that r for the electron is much, much
smaller than this, and furthermore we're assuming all the charge is on
the surface of the little ball, but correcting for this will only make
the problem worse, as you will see below.)

Now let's suppose that the *measured* spin of the electron (1/2)h-bar
is attributable to the rotation of this little charged ball, and
calculate what tangential velocity a point on the surface of the ball
would have to be.

The moment of inertia of a sphere is (2/5)mr^2, and so the angular
momentum would be
(2/5)mrv. Equating this to the measured spin, and subsituting in the
classical radius, we get
(1/2)h-bar = (2/5)m[ke^2/(mc^2)]v
or v = (5/4)(h-bar)c^2/(ke^2).

I invite you to plug the numbers into this formula.

This is one of the ways we know that the electron cannot be a little
spinning charged ball.

PD

Paul's analysis is a bit ridiculous of charge
self-energization, Purcell is clear on that on
pg 8, charge is essentially relative and a
single charge has no absolute or solitary
existance, anymore than velocity does.
What you can do is use 3 charges in a spatial
configuration like,
(+)
(-)(-)
within a radius of ~10^-18 m and simulate
the characteristics of an electron, I use
a computer simulation to do that.
I use that for my mental model of an electron,
but I don't how to test or prove it aside from
the way it reacts with particles, particularily
in the case of positron-electron => gamma's.
Then one needs a similiar model for the
photon to transmute the configuration.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
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PD
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnetic Idyll Reply with quote

Edward Green wrote:
Quote:
Bilge wrote:

How about this one: The electron has a magnetic moment, even in
its own rest frame. The magnetic moment cannot be due to moving
charge, since the upper limit on the electron charge radius is
about 5 x 10^-18 m.

I didn't wish to get into a discussion whether an elementary particle
with non-zero spin is "rotating". Presumably, such a discussion would
be laden with many expressions like "naive", "19th century", "no
classical analogue", and etc. It was to side-step such discussion that
I phrased my condition "circulation/angular momentum of charge". The
electron, equipped with its mysterious spin, certainly shows an angular
momentum associated with a charge.

Asking whether an electron with spin is spinning is about as productive
as asking whether there is a medium in space. In either case we are
confronted by a concept splitting, and an object which exhibits some,
but not all, the features of the broader concept. Therefore it is just
as naive, 19th century and so-forth to insist that there is no medium
and that the electron does not spin as to assert the opposite. The
electron is sort of spinning, and space is sort of a medium.


Well, yes, in a way. There is an illuminating exercise. Let's suppose
that the rest mass of the electron (mc^2) is attributable to the
assemblage of charge to a small ball of radius r so that mc^2 = ke^2/r,
where 1/k = 4*pi*epsilon_0. This produces the so-called "classical
radius" of the electron: r = ke^2/(mc^2).

(Now we know experimentally that r for the electron is much, much
smaller than this, and furthermore we're assuming all the charge is on
the surface of the little ball, but correcting for this will only make
the problem worse, as you will see below.)

Now let's suppose that the *measured* spin of the electron (1/2)h-bar
is attributable to the rotation of this little charged ball, and
calculate what tangential velocity a point on the surface of the ball
would have to be.

The moment of inertia of a sphere is (2/5)mr^2, and so the angular
momentum would be
(2/5)mrv. Equating this to the measured spin, and subsituting in the
classical radius, we get
(1/2)h-bar = (2/5)m[ke^2/(mc^2)]v
or v = (5/4)(h-bar)c^2/(ke^2).

I invite you to plug the numbers into this formula.

This is one of the ways we know that the electron cannot be a little
spinning charged ball.

PD
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