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Proginoskes
science forum Guru

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 2593

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

Tim Peters wrote:
 Quote: [jstevh@msn.com] I have been posting on sci.crypt, sci.math, alt.math, alt.math.undergrad, and alt.math.recreational and if there is NO ONE on any of these groups who picks up on a dramatic theory with such implications, then isn't that a proper indictment of mathematical society? That would be mildly interesting, _if_ the method had merit. Not as interesting as it could be, because your presentation was incoherent in key respects (I could only make sense of it because I've laboriously deciphered many of your previous factoring attempts) -- "I couldn't make sense of it, so ignored it" is a reasonable reaction from anyone.

The usual response I have to JSH's "No mathematician has ever thought
this way before!" is "No mathematician has ever said 'noon blue
apples' before, either."

There is an actual reference here. Supposedly it was a message from
Francis Bacon (or someone like that) which was coded and stored in a
document. The person who "cracked the code" came up with the message
"noon blue apples". This is my catch-phrase for something that looks
promising but fails in the end.

--- Christopher Heckman
Larry Lard
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 166

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

jstevh@msn.com wrote:
 Quote: The problem I have is this is just one of my major mathematical results.

This *might* be a major mathematical result.

 Quote: If

Good: here you are acknowledging the actual fact that you don't at this
time have a solution to the factoring problem.

 Quote: it IS a solution to the factoring problem and [if] I just create a factoring algorithm and implement it, proving that beyond a doubt in a rapid period of time, then mathematicians who by now should know about the theory, would, of course, jump up and down proclaiming the greatness of the solution!

Still using the conditional mood, all this is fine.

 Quote: That makes it easy for them.

'Would make', not 'makes'.

 Quote: But now there's just the beautiful mathematics--pure and simple.

'There might be', not 'there is'.

 Quote: Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about algebra and factoring knows that it's new, but they can look around and see the mathematical world doing nothing, while a few posters poke fun at the idea.

It's new, but so is every bowel movement. It has to be more than new.

 Quote: However, it is a contradiction for brilliant and beautiful minds to do nothing when faced with a simple factoring solution with very clear mathematics and theory, so those who are doing nothing--waiting to see what happens--are not such minds.

A *possible* simple factoring solution.

 Quote: So the time lag is the proof I need to keep mathematicians from coming up later and just claiming they didn't have a chance, while I'm sure plenty of them will claim to not know about it, and probably most of them don't, but even that is a dramatic demonstration of the failures of the society. I have been posting on sci.crypt, sci.math, alt.math, alt.math.undergrad, and alt.math.recreational and if there is NO ONE on any of these groups who picks up on a dramatic theory with such implications, then isn't that a proper indictment of mathematical society?

That would be an indictment, *if* you what have is any good. What if it
isn't? What's the correct way for mathematical society to respond to
useless ideas?

 Quote: The proof here is that mathematical proof isn't what matters to these people

How would you know? You haven't got any.

It's not enough to have something that 'might be' a solution to the
factoring problem, James. You have to *actually have one*. Then _and
only then_ do your predicted dire consequences follow. If you're wrong,
then... well, I guess we'll find out.

--
Larry Lard
Tim Peters
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 426

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

[jstevh@msn.com]
 Quote: The problem I have is this is just one of my major mathematical results. If it IS a solution to the factoring problem

Alas, it isn't. Try it.

 Quote: and I just create a factoring algorithm and implement it, proving that beyond a doubt in a rapid period of time, then mathematicians who by now should know about the theory, would, of course, jump up and down proclaiming the greatness of the solution! That makes it easy for them.

Only if (a) your implementation works well; and, (b) you _tell_ people about
that result. Try an implementation and keep the results to yourself. You
should do that, because any sane researcher would. The primary point to
trying it isn't to convince anyone else of anything -- it's to check your
beliefs against reality _for your own sake_. It's especially important for
you because your "proofs" are so often wrong, and 100% of your previous
factoring methods failed spectacularly in practice. You swore up and down
that many of those were "proved" too.

I promise that if you do try this method, you'll quickly find that it
doesn't work worth beans. Maybe you could repair it then -- who knows?
It's certain that you'll never repair it so long as you cling to a false

 Quote: But now there's just the beautiful mathematics--pure and simple. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about algebra and factoring knows that it's new, but they can look around and see the mathematical world doing nothing, while a few posters poke fun at the idea. However, it is a contradiction for brilliant and beautiful minds to do nothing when faced with a simple factoring solution with very clear mathematics and theory, so those who are doing nothing--waiting to see what happens--are not such minds. So the time lag is the proof I need to keep mathematicians from coming up later and just claiming they didn't have a chance, while I'm sure plenty of them will claim to not know about it, and probably most of them don't, but even that is a dramatic demonstration of the failures of the society. I have been posting on sci.crypt, sci.math, alt.math, alt.math.undergrad, and alt.math.recreational and if there is NO ONE on any of these groups who picks up on a dramatic theory with such implications, then isn't that a proper indictment of mathematical society?

That would be mildly interesting, _if_ the method had merit. Not as
interesting as it could be, because your presentation was incoherent in key
respects (I could only make sense of it because I've laboriously deciphered
many of your previous factoring attempts) -- "I couldn't make sense of it,
so ignored it" is a reasonable reaction from anyone.

 Quote: Just to be sure, I'll probably email it to some major mathematicians as well, if that becomes necessary and the time lag continues.

Take it as a fact that "the time lag" for this method will last forever. If
you want to retain a shred of self-respect, it would be better for you if
you refrained from emailing anyone about it before _trying_ it. If you find
it does work well, great, email everyone on Earth with a clear conscience,
and gleefully tell them I lied while you're at it. Hell, send the secret
police after me too. I won't resist :-)

 Quote: The proof here is that mathematical proof isn't what matters to these people--they're looking for social reaction. They are political animals in a social situation, not true mathematicians, and not "beautiful minds".

Since you don't have a correct proof that this is an efficient factoring
method, you can't conclude that based on the evidence. If you have to
conclude something, it might be that other people are better at evaluating
your ideas than you are -- even if they reach correct conclusions for
reasons you don't approve of. Right is right, and you're wrong here. Being
right covers a multitude of sins.
mensanator@aol.compost
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 826

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

jstevh@msn.com wrote:

Be sure and post their replies here. That will teach us a lesson, eh?

 Quote: The proof here is that mathematical proof isn't what matters to these people--they're looking for social reaction. They are political animals in a social situation, not true mathematicians, and not "beautiful minds". James Harris
jstevh@msn.com
science forum Guru

Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 951

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

mensanator@aol.com wrote:
 Quote: jstevh@msn.com wrote: I put up a post yesterday about how loose connectivity from using congruences works with these simple equations to produce an approach to the factoring problem. You can read my posts on the subject and at least one other post from someone else has appeared in the thread. I have posted on this subject at other newsgroups and there have been people who have similarly posted in reply simply declaring things about the method, or even being derogatory to me. Now my question to you is, but what if I am right and this is some significant mathematics, how do you explain such behavior? You asking for a conclusion based on a false premise? I'm puzzled by the behavior, so I'm looking for input on why people would behave this way. Beacuse everyone hates you. Duh.

The problem I have is this is just one of my major mathematical
results.

If it IS a solution to the factoring problem and I just create a
factoring algorithm and implement it, proving that beyond a doubt in a
rapid period of time, then mathematicians who by now should know about
the theory, would, of course, jump up and down proclaiming the
greatness of the solution!

That makes it easy for them.

But now there's just the beautiful mathematics--pure and simple.

Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about algebra and factoring knows
that it's new, but they can look around and see the mathematical world
doing nothing, while a few posters poke fun at the idea.

However, it is a contradiction for brilliant and beautiful minds to do
nothing when faced with a simple factoring solution with very clear
mathematics and theory, so those who are doing nothing--waiting to see
what happens--are not such minds.

So the time lag is the proof I need to keep mathematicians from coming
up later and just claiming they didn't have a chance, while I'm sure
plenty of them will claim to not know about it, and probably most of
them don't, but even that is a dramatic demonstration of the failures
of the society.

I have been posting on sci.crypt, sci.math, alt.math,
alt.math.undergrad, and alt.math.recreational and if there is NO ONE on
any of these groups who picks up on a dramatic theory with such
implications, then isn't that a proper indictment of mathematical
society?

Just to be sure, I'll probably email it to some major mathematicians as
well, if that becomes necessary and the time lag continues.

The proof here is that mathematical proof isn't what matters to these
people--they're looking for social reaction.

They are political animals in a social situation, not true
mathematicians, and not "beautiful minds".

James Harris
mensanator@aol.compost
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 826

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

jstevh@msn.com wrote:
 Quote: I put up a post yesterday about how loose connectivity from using congruences works with these simple equations to produce an approach to the factoring problem. You can read my posts on the subject and at least one other post from someone else has appeared in the thread. I have posted on this subject at other newsgroups and there have been people who have similarly posted in reply simply declaring things about the method, or even being derogatory to me. Now my question to you is, but what if I am right and this is some significant mathematics, how do you explain such behavior?

You asking for a conclusion based on a false premise?

 Quote: I'm puzzled by the behavior, so I'm looking for input on why people would behave this way.

Beacuse everyone hates you. Duh.

 Quote: I DO have other mathematical research, which is quite solid and have faced lies about it, but in "pure math" areas where I could not get anywhere past such behavior. Here with the factoring problem, of course, that behavior is not as powerful, but I'm curious about why ANY person would behave in this way. Any clues?

Just as I thought. Clueless.

 Quote: James Harris
jshsucks@yahoo.com
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 127

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: Simple factoring result, but what about lies?

jstevh@msn.com wrote:

 Quote: Now my question to you is, but what if I am right and this is some significant mathematics, how do you explain such behavior?

What if you're right?

You can find out and actually try your method. Create an algorithm from
it and test it. Then if it works and is a great discovery, you can ask
why people ignored it. It is pretty stupid to ask why people are
ignoring and trying to cover up a great discovery if you are too scared
to even try and see if it actually works.

You seem to rely on what ifs alot. Before accusing people of something,
it is best to be sure you are right, otherwise you just look pitiful.
jstevh@msn.com
science forum Guru

Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 951

 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Simple factoring result, but what about lies? I put up a post yesterday about how loose connectivity from using congruences works with these simple equations to produce an approach to the factoring problem. You can read my posts on the subject and at least one other post from someone else has appeared in the thread. I have posted on this subject at other newsgroups and there have been people who have similarly posted in reply simply declaring things about the method, or even being derogatory to me. Now my question to you is, but what if I am right and this is some significant mathematics, how do you explain such behavior? I'm puzzled by the behavior, so I'm looking for input on why people would behave this way. I DO have other mathematical research, which is quite solid and have faced lies about it, but in "pure math" areas where I could not get anywhere past such behavior. Here with the factoring problem, of course, that behavior is not as powerful, but I'm curious about why ANY person would behave in this way. Any clues? James Harris

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