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"Black" Tones?
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Repeating Rifle
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

On 7/14/06 9:10 AM, in article
1152893431.318572.292470@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "Radium"
<glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Quote:
I am curious to know what the auditory equivalent of black light is.

I am curious as to how someone can create such nonsense.

Very few wild ideas will lead to the breakthroughs that change the world.
The creator of such outlandish ideas should at least be able to tell that
most of them are crazy. The few that filter through can then be broadcast to
get other opinions. Radium knows squat and cannot filter any crackpot ideas
out. Instead, the burden is placed on others. Anyone with a modicum of
scientific knowledge would know what the answer to the above question is.

While I usually do not look at such posts, every now and then I look at one
for my amusement.

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
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Mike Rieves
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1152893431.318572.292470@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Hi:

I am curious to know what the auditory equivalent of black light is.

Black light is long-wave UV light around 400 nanometers.

The auditory equivalent of black light would then be long-wave
ultrasound [i.e. slightly above 20,000 Hz]. Right?

I am thinking of designing a Sine-Wave tone generator that produces
sound in the frequencies that would be like "black light for the human
ear".

My design produces two frequencies together. They frequency difference
is exactly that of notes [white keys] C and D on a piano. Both these
frequencies are played exactly together. The tones are pure sine-waves.
These frequencies are similar to those played on the Emergency
Broadcasting System.

What are the parameters?

The EBS plays sine-wave tones in the human audible range [obviously not
"black sound"] but the frequency difference of these two tones is
similar to what I was describing [C and D on a paino]. EBS plays tones
somewhere in the mid-human hearing range. The frequency difference of
the two tones induces fear in listeners which alerts them to the
emergency being reported. This type of fear is a severe one which
occurs when wierd things occur that one cannot understand. I have a
friend whose eyes water whenever he listens to the EBS or disruptions
on the AM radio. I seem to like it though. The fear induced by the
frequency difference gives me an adrenaline rush [lot like flying into
outer space where there are lot of new and wierd things to learn
about!]. This is one of the reasons I would like to construct a
"black" sine-wave tone generator. The other reason is of course my
interest in sound and audio-visual equivalents. I also find
high-pitched sine-waves pleasing to my ears.

When I listen to sine-waves *slighty* above 20,000 Hz, I can only
partially "hear" them but I can still feel "tickling" or "pressure" my
ears whenever they are played. Would this frequency be in the "black
tone" range?

There is no truly relevant comparison between light and sound, they are

two different senses in different mediums. The only black tones are the ones
made when you play the black keys on your leyboard. Smile
Your questions are really getting stupid. If you must research such things,
try Google, Yahoo Search or Ask.com.
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Mikie
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

"Mike Rieves" <mriev@hotspam.com> wrote in
news:JtXtg.1973$Ur.127@bignews7.bellsouth.net:

Quote:

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1152893431.318572.292470@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

I am curious to know what the auditory equivalent of black light is.

Black light is long-wave UV light around 400 nanometers.

The auditory equivalent of black light would then be long-wave
ultrasound [i.e. slightly above 20,000 Hz]. Right?

I am thinking of designing a Sine-Wave tone generator that produces
sound in the frequencies that would be like "black light for the
human ear".

My design produces two frequencies together. They frequency
difference is exactly that of notes [white keys] C and D on a piano.
Both these frequencies are played exactly together. The tones are
pure sine-waves. These frequencies are similar to those played on the
Emergency Broadcasting System.

What are the parameters?

The EBS plays sine-wave tones in the human audible range [obviously
not "black sound"] but the frequency difference of these two tones is
similar to what I was describing [C and D on a paino]. EBS plays
tones somewhere in the mid-human hearing range. The frequency
difference of the two tones induces fear in listeners which alerts
them to the emergency being reported. This type of fear is a severe
one which occurs when wierd things occur that one cannot understand.
I have a friend whose eyes water whenever he listens to the EBS or
disruptions on the AM radio. I seem to like it though. The fear
induced by the frequency difference gives me an adrenaline rush [lot
like flying into outer space where there are lot of new and wierd
things to learn about!]. This is one of the reasons I would like to
construct a "black" sine-wave tone generator. The other reason is of
course my interest in sound and audio-visual equivalents. I also find
high-pitched sine-waves pleasing to my ears.

When I listen to sine-waves *slighty* above 20,000 Hz, I can only
partially "hear" them but I can still feel "tickling" or "pressure"
my ears whenever they are played. Would this frequency be in the
"black tone" range?

There is no truly relevant comparison between light and sound, they
are
two different senses in different mediums. The only black tones are
the ones made when you play the black keys on your leyboard. Smile
Your questions are really getting stupid. If you must research such
things, try Google, Yahoo Search or Ask.com.


You might also try posting your stupid questions in alt.music.home-studio
where Mike (Porky) Rieves demonstrates his lack of education and technical
ignorance on a regular basis.
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Angelo Campanella
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Radium wrote:
Quote:
Black light is long-wave UV light around 400 nanometers.

The most coomon use of UV "Black" light is its capability to cause
materials to flouresce in the visible region longer than 400nm.

The radio equivalent of this is the MASER, which can also be
accomplished with Lasers.

There are some that have that have harnessed this principale (nonlinear
interactions), manifested as "Parametric Sonar".

This, like the MASER, requires a very strong "pump" wave, which in your
example is the "black light".

Off hand, I think that the "parametric sonar" priciple comes close to
what you are referencing.

It's not yet certain that the "pressure" felt in one's ear is such.

Angelo Campanella
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Kari Pesonen
science forum beginner


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

"Angelo Campanella" <a.campanella@att.net> wrote in message
news:uVZtg.389586$Fs1.321741@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Quote:
Radium wrote:
Black light is long-wave UV light around 400 nanometers.

The most coomon use of UV "Black" light is its capability to cause
materials to flouresce in the visible region longer than 400nm.

The radio equivalent of this is the MASER, which can also be accomplished
with Lasers.

There are some that have that have harnessed this principale (nonlinear
interactions), manifested as "Parametric Sonar".

This, like the MASER, requires a very strong "pump" wave, which in your
example is the "black light".

Off hand, I think that the "parametric sonar" priciple comes close to what
you are referencing.

It's not yet certain that the "pressure" felt in one's ear is such.

Angelo Campanella


Have a look at
http://www.holosonics.com/technology.html

Kari Pesonen
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bert stoltenborg
science forum addict


Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

I sure would like to see some measurement results of these things Smile.
Especially low freq

Kari Pesonen wrote:
Quote:
"Angelo Campanella" <a.campanella@att.net> wrote in message
news:uVZtg.389586$Fs1.321741@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Radium wrote:
Black light is long-wave UV light around 400 nanometers.

The most coomon use of UV "Black" light is its capability to cause
materials to flouresce in the visible region longer than 400nm.

The radio equivalent of this is the MASER, which can also be accomplished
with Lasers.

There are some that have that have harnessed this principale (nonlinear
interactions), manifested as "Parametric Sonar".

This, like the MASER, requires a very strong "pump" wave, which in your
example is the "black light".

Off hand, I think that the "parametric sonar" priciple comes close to what
you are referencing.

It's not yet certain that the "pressure" felt in one's ear is such.

Angelo Campanella


Have a look at
http://www.holosonics.com/technology.html

Kari Pesonen
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Jonessy
science forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Not sure if we are thinking of the same thing, but "BLACK NOISE"
(opposite of white-noise) is basically quiet (no sound) with random
bursts of energy.
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Angelo Campanella
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Kari Pesonen wrote:
Quote:
Have a look at
http://www.holosonics.com/technology.html

I am not sure whether the paramtric system depicted has a sigificant
domestic value, certainly not for wide area entertainment as for
essentially all existing PA and entertainment systems.

Perhaps that parametric approach works for targeted sound delivery
points, e.g. answering the door, where you want speech sound only at the
head of the visitor, or speaking to just one or two persons in a room
full of occupants.

Angelo Campanella
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Angelo Campanella
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Jonessy wrote:
Quote:
Not sure if we are thinking of the same thing, but "BLACK NOISE"
(opposite of white-noise) is basically quiet (no sound) with random
bursts of energy.

The 'black' question seems to be one of idle curiosity.
(If 'white' existis, then what must be 'black'; a conundrum.)

Whence we all set about trying to satisfy the wish of that conundrum.

Angelo Campanella
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Angelo Campanella wrote:
Quote:
Radium wrote:
Black light is long-wave UV light around 400 nanometers.

The most coomon use of UV "Black" light is its capability to cause
materials to flouresce in the visible region longer than 400nm.

The radio equivalent of this is the MASER, which can also be
accomplished with Lasers.

The radio equivalent is different from the acoustic equivalent.

Quote:
There are some that have that have harnessed this principale (nonlinear
interactions), manifested as "Parametric Sonar".

Interesting.

Quote:
This, like the MASER, requires a very strong "pump" wave, which in your
example is the "black light".

Off hand, I think that the "parametric sonar" priciple comes close to
what you are referencing.

Does the parametric sonar use any ultrasonic transducers?

Quote:
It's not yet certain that the "pressure" felt in one's ear is such.

Angelo Campanella
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Jonessy wrote:
Quote:
Not sure if we are thinking of the same thing, but "BLACK NOISE"
(opposite of white-noise) is basically quiet (no sound) with random
bursts of energy.

I am not at all talking about "black noise". I am talking about "black
tone". There is a huge difference.

Black-tone is to the ear what black-light [400 nm light] is to the eye.
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Angelo Campanella wrote:
Quote:
Jonessy wrote:
Not sure if we are thinking of the same thing, but "BLACK NOISE"
(opposite of white-noise) is basically quiet (no sound) with random
bursts of energy.

The 'black' question seems to be one of idle curiosity.
(If 'white' existis, then what must be 'black'; a conundrum.)

Whence we all set about trying to satisfy the wish of that conundrum.

Angelo Campanella

In this case, the conundrum is more like:

1. If black "light" exists, then what must be black "tone"?

OR

2. If there is a "visual" something, what is its "auditory" equivalent?
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Ron Capik
science forum beginner


Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Radium wrote:

Quote:
Angelo Campanella wrote:

...snip...
The 'black' question seems to be one of idle curiosity.
(If 'white' existis, then what must be 'black'; a conundrum.)

Whence we all set about trying to satisfy the wish of that conundrum.

Angelo Campanella

In this case, the conundrum is more like:

1. If black "light" exists, then what must be black "tone"?

OR

2. If there is a "visual" something, what is its "auditory" equivalent?

OR

3. if light were a flavor, what would it taste like?

OR

4. If sound were an odor, what would it smell like?

....etc.

Why must there be a cross mappings of the senses?


Later...

Ron Capik <<< cynic-in-training >>>
--
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Ron Capik wrote:
Quote:
Radium wrote:

Angelo Campanella wrote:

...snip...
The 'black' question seems to be one of idle curiosity.
(If 'white' existis, then what must be 'black'; a conundrum.)

Whence we all set about trying to satisfy the wish of that conundrum.

Angelo Campanella

In this case, the conundrum is more like:

1. If black "light" exists, then what must be black "tone"?

OR

2. If there is a "visual" something, what is its "auditory" equivalent?

OR

3. if light were a flavor, what would it taste like?

OR

4. If sound were an odor, what would it smell like?

...etc.

Why must there be a cross mappings of the senses?


Later...

Ron Capik <<< cynic-in-training
--

Both light and sound has frequency and amplitude. Chemicals [which BTW,
are responsible for smells and tastes] do not have frequency of
amplitude. So get this smell and taste stuff outa here, no offense.
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bert stoltenborg
science forum addict


Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: "Black" Tones? Reply with quote

Angelo Campanella wrote:
Quote:
Kari Pesonen wrote:
Have a look at
http://www.holosonics.com/technology.html

I am not sure whether the paramtric system depicted has a sigificant
domestic value, certainly not for wide area entertainment as for
essentially all existing PA and entertainment systems.

Perhaps that parametric approach works for targeted sound delivery
points, e.g. answering the door, where you want speech sound only at the
head of the visitor, or speaking to just one or two persons in a room
full of occupants.

Angelo Campanella

Ang,

such devices using IM distortion to get beamed sound are made for musea
to point info at a narrow spot.
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