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tendon
science forum beginner

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
 Quote: On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 06:38:42 GMT, "The Real Chris"

transformin dc!? fool
tendon
science forum beginner

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Tom Roberts wrote:
 Quote: The Real Chris wrote: If you make a single loop of wire bent into a circle and pass a regulated 1 amp current through it you will make a "magnetic field". According to Gauss you have to imagine it is there and calculate accordingly. Then comes an extraordinary performance of human intellect beginning with the magnetic shells construction that shows that the field is uniform across the plane of the loop. I have no idea where you get the idea that the field should be uniform. Indeed, a quick computation shows that for a loop of 1mm square wire in a circle of radius 250 mm and a current of 1A, the B field at the center is 25 Gauss, and at radius 240 mm it is 213 Gauss -- far from uniform.

right, but his idea of photon exchangind make sense

 Quote: [Yes, I have a program that can easily compute this; it took me about 3 minutes to set it up and run it for this geometry.] Another basic algorithm is the idea that a series of loops is like one loop multiplied. Well if you do the same thing for six turns then the compass measurement is the same near the wire than at the centre. For my values above, one will not achieve ~10% uniformity until the coil is more than 250 mm long. That's a lot more than 6 turns. But your compass has very poor resolution (far worse than 10%). The magnetic field does not exist it is fictitious. Your discussion gives no support for this contention at all. Indeed, you seem to be measuring a magnetic field.... Tom Roberts
Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Chris
I get the sense you think my reply was sarcastic,
well it wasn't, I'll provide an example...
In the past, in North America, A/C was wired at
25 cycles, then a decision was made to transmit
power at 60 cycles. Subsequently, the size of the
transformers reduced (I recall by volume & weight)
in proportion to 25/60 creating great \$savings.
That itself renders the idea that power transmutation
is proportional to frequency and is thus quantized,
as Planck's QT predicts. I can follow with many
details, but basically those facts are in accord with
Regards
Ken S. Tucker
[snip weird s**t]
....
 Quote: Chris Sounds good to me, I think a transformer is basically a "quantum mechanical" device, if it's examined in detail. I think your ideas are very reasonable and advanced. Regards Ken S. Tucker
Sue...
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

The Real Chris top-posted:
 Quote: Rubbish quantum mechanics it true at all energies. The energy of each of the quanta are hf where f is the frequency of the exciter and the number of quanta per cycle is the energy per cycle divided by hf. Nothing special about low energies.

and wrote earlier:
<< The model of the magnetic effect of current is in reality the
Lorenz contraction of the moving electrons relative to the
fixed charges in the wire and the electrostatic force is
mediated by virtual photons. >>

Is there some way you can relate this Lorenz contraction
to the velocity of a electon in a conductor or electron beam?
I have seen a formula for that somewhere.

The photon energy you cite would depend on atomic
emission and absorbtion would it not? So we could
perhaps turn off the lights and watch the magnetism being formed.

Sue...

 Quote: "Sue..." wrote in message news:1152958274.455652.92190@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... The Real Chris wrote: The inductive effect is in reality caused by the acceleration of electrons. Now these little charged particles are governed by quantum mechanics and the energy states up the ladder are discontinuous and the electrons jump from one state to the next the two states overlap and during the transition a fluctuation occurs and a photon emission occurs, just like the hydrogen spectrum. Look at Smith-Purcell radiation and see if your charges aren't moving waaaay too slow for the effect you are assuming. Sue...
Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

On 15 Jul 2006 13:49:55 -0700, "my mother"
<l3jklr94jt594j@comicmail.co.uk> Gave us:

 Quote: Roy L. Fuchs wrote: On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 06:38:42 GMT, "The Real Chris"

Actually, it is quite possible, and is the very basis for how a car
ignition coil works.

A standing DC field is placed on the "transformer" and upon release
of the DC current, the field snaps back down and the collapse yields a
stepped up voltage at the secondary.

Got clue?
Roy L. Fuchs
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

On 15 Jul 2006 14:38:06 -0700, "Sue..." <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au>
Gave us:

 Quote: The photon energy you cite would depend on atomic emission and absorbtion would it not? So we could perhaps turn off the lights and watch the magnetism being formed.

You guys seem attracted to each other. Is it "animal magnetism"?
The Real Chris

Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 75

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Hi Sue,

Have a look at my web page on http://www.newelectricity.co.uk and there is
those formulas there.

Chris.

"Sue..." <suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
 Quote: The Real Chris top-posted: Rubbish quantum mechanics it true at all energies. The energy of each of the quanta are hf where f is the frequency of the exciter and the number of quanta per cycle is the energy per cycle divided by hf. Nothing special about low energies. and wrote earlier: The model of the magnetic effect of current is in reality the Lorenz contraction of the moving electrons relative to the fixed charges in the wire and the electrostatic force is mediated by virtual photons. Is there some way you can relate this Lorenz contraction to the velocity of a electon in a conductor or electron beam? I have seen a formula for that somewhere. The photon energy you cite would depend on atomic emission and absorbtion would it not? So we could perhaps turn off the lights and watch the magnetism being formed. Sue... "Sue..." wrote in message news:1152958274.455652.92190@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... The Real Chris wrote: The inductive effect is in reality caused by the acceleration of electrons. Now these little charged particles are governed by quantum mechanics and the energy states up the ladder are discontinuous and the electrons jump from one state to the next the two states overlap and during the transition a fluctuation occurs and a photon emission occurs, just like the hydrogen spectrum. Look at Smith-Purcell radiation and see if your charges aren't moving waaaay too slow for the effect you are assuming. Sue...
Sue...
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

The Real Chris wrote:
 Quote: Hi Sue, Have a look at my web page on http://www.newelectricity.co.uk and there is those formulas there.

So what velocity do I put in the formula?

Sue...
dda1
science forum Guru

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 762

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Bill Snyder wrote:
 Quote: On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 17:48:10 GMT, Roy L. Fuchs roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote: On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 06:38:42 GMT, "The Real Chris"

The part with the misspelling is exceptional. I have not laughed so
hard in a long time. Thank you! Five stars!
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
science forum beginner

Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 39

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

The Real Chris wrote:
 Quote: Hi Sue, Have a look at my web page on http://www.newelectricity.co.uk and there is those formulas there.

Dude, I think you finally pissed all the electrons off. They're not

http://www.chrisspages.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NewElectricity/NewElectricity/index.htm

I just get a 404 error.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
If everything is coming your way then you're in the wrong lane.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
science forum beginner

Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 39

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:05 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

The Real Chris wrote:

http://www.chrisspages.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NewElectricity/Transformer/transformer.htm

You say: "Another improvement is a copper screen round the outer winding
and another one round the inner winding to act as a screen against
photons escaping thus reducing losses still further."

Have you actually built this thing? That copper screen will form what we
in the EE biz call "a shorted turn".

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions stated herein are the sole property of the author. Standard
disclaimers apply. Celebrity voice impersonated. Batteries not included.
Limit one to a customer. Best if used by April 1, 2006. Refrigerate
after opening. Void if removed.
Don Kelly
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 166

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
 Quote: Chris I get the sense you think my reply was sarcastic, well it wasn't, I'll provide an example... In the past, in North America, A/C was wired at 25 cycles, then a decision was made to transmit power at 60 cycles. Subsequently, the size of the transformers reduced (I recall by volume & weight) in proportion to 25/60 creating great \$savings. That itself renders the idea that power transmutation is proportional to frequency and is thus quantized, as Planck's QT predicts. I can follow with many details, but basically those facts are in accord with your thesis. Regards Ken S. Tucker [snip weird s**t] ... Chris Sounds good to me, I think a transformer is basically a "quantum mechanical" device, if it's examined in detail. I think your ideas are very reasonable and advanced. Regards Ken S. Tucker

What nonsense. Increase frequency, reduce core flux for a given voltage and
number of turns , so make a smaller core at the original flux density.
Nothing to do with Chris's rubbish. Much to do with Faraday.

--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
----------------------------
Euler Cheung
science forum beginner

Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Hello ppl,
I does written something about why a series of loop is not equal to
a loop mutiplied here. Maybe it is helpful.
Core Magnification of Magnetic field as a Parallel Path Phenomena
By Euler Cheung
06/03/2006
One of the mysterious phenomena in the electromagnet is that the iron
core
amplification of the surrounding Magnetic field from the coil. There
has been many
attempts to explain it in terms of electromagnetism theories. This is
the one I believe
to be most complete in explaining this phenomena.
First, for the sake of simplicity, we can consider the iron core in an
electromagnet
coil as made of many concentric metallic cylinders. And when the
electromagnet coil
is flowing with electrical current, each of the section of the coil
would act as the
center of many concentric Magnetic flux lines. Due to the geometry of
the
electromagnet coil and the property of Magnetic flux lines, these
concentric Magnetic
flux lines mutually annihilate each other in the gaps inside the coil.
It thus form many
layers of elliptic Magnetic flux lines (sharing the identical
focus)surrounding the wire.
Since the iron core is close by the wire and made of high Magnetic
permeable
material, these flux lines are thus draw into the core. And each
individual 'layers' of
the core has taken a finite number of Magnetic flux lines. Or, in other
words, the
'layers' of iron core has become a gigantic structure full of Magnetic
pathways. We
could thus envision that each 'layer' of the iron core is filled with
Magnetic flux lines
generated by the wire. From the perspective of each layer, there are
many flux lines
passing through it in parallel(each group of them has the same distance
from the
center.) And due to the timing of the electricity, some flux lines are
formed later than
the other. Those flux lines formed later couple with the existing flux
line to produce a
flux lines of much greater strength than the linear sum of them. Since
there is no
separation of layers in reality, we would expect the totality of
strength of Magnetic
flux is equal to the square of strength of each of them. The result is
a much greater
output of Magnetic flux emitted from the iron core. The center of the
iron core doesn't
contain any Magnetic flux lines since flux lines coming from opposite
direction
cancel out each other.

The Real Chris wrote:
 Quote: If you make a single loop of wire bent into a circle and pass a regulated 1 amp current through it you will make a "magnetic field". According to Gauss you have to imagine it is there and calculate accordingly. Then comes an extraordinary performance of human intellect beginning with the magnetic shells construction that shows that the field is uniform across the plane of the loop. According to Carl Popper we should now measure it to see. Using a compass as a tangent galvanometer with the earth's field as a reference you can measure the relative strength of the field in the region of the magnet by measuring its deflection (according to the field theory). I have done this and the field is about three times higher near the wire than at the centre. This disproves the magnetic shell construction. Another basic algorithm is the idea that a series of loops is like one loop multiplied. Well if you do the same thing for six turns then the compass measurement is the same near the wire than at the centre. This shows that the basic algorithm of what is true on one is true of many as one times the number of repetitions, is false. I would like to propose a different model: that the magnet is responding to spin-spin interactions as a quantum mechanical effect. These are entirely electrostatic in nature. The magnetic field does not exist it is fictitious. The model of the magnetic effect of current is in reality the Lorenz contraction of the moving electrons relative to the fixed charges in the wire and the electrostatic force is mediated by virtual photons. Since the electrons always occupy the same space in the wire even though they are moving it shows that special relativity is an effect like perspective. The inductive effect is in reality caused by the acceleration of electrons. Now these little charged particles are governed by quantum mechanics and the energy states up the ladder are discontinuous and the electrons jump from one state to the next the two states overlap and during the transition a fluctuation occurs and a photon emission occurs, just like the hydrogen spectrum. This photon interacts with just one electron in another wire or the same wire and imparts momentum and energy to change the electron from its original state to its new state. This also means that the photon carries momentum both linear and angular and energy. This is both mutual and self inductance. Chris
VWWall
science forum beginner

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Sue... wrote:
 Quote: The Real Chris top-posted: Rubbish quantum mechanics it true at all energies. The energy of each of the quanta are hf where f is the frequency of the exciter and the number of quanta per cycle is the energy per cycle divided by hf. Nothing special about low energies. and wrote earlier: The model of the magnetic effect of current is in reality the Lorenz contraction of the moving electrons relative to the fixed charges in the wire and the electrostatic force is mediated by virtual photons. Is there some way you can relate this Lorenz contraction to the velocity of a electon in a conductor or electron beam? I have seen a formula for that somewhere. The photon energy you cite would depend on atomic emission and absorbtion would it not? So we could perhaps turn off the lights and watch the magnetism being formed. Sue...

Wow! Another undiscovered use for the optical isolator!

--
Virg Wall, PE
Ken S. Tucker
science forum Guru

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1230

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: New Inductance

Don Kelly wrote:
 Quote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message news:1152999190.140186.287000@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... .... Sounds good to me, I think a transformer is basically a "quantum mechanical" device, if it's examined in detail. I think your ideas are very reasonable and advanced. Regards Ken S. Tucker What nonsense. Increase frequency, reduce core flux for a given voltage and number of turns , so make a smaller core at the original flux density. Nothing to do with Chris's rubbish. Much to do with Faraday. Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca

Your moving *power* from the primary to
the secondary coil, power is quantized.
For simple electrical applications you
don't need to know or understand that.

Don, you seem knowledgeable enough
to even model a 40 watt light bulb to see
what I'm getting at. Keep the rate of photons
emitted constant, but double their frequency,
then your output power would be 80 watts.
Regards
Ken S. Tucker

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