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Forum index » Science and Technology » Chem » Analytical
Detecting synthetic oil
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nailer
science forum beginner


Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:12:19 GMT, "lucasea@sbcglobal.net"
<lucasea@battelle.org> wrote:


#
#Synthetic oils are not single compounds, they are still mixtures,
even
#though they are more uniform in molecular architecture.

true, I tried to be simple :)

#
#FP range might be a better measure, since it's probably more
sensitive to
#molecular architecture and less sensitive to MWD. BP range is the
#opposite--very sensitive to MWD, not very sensitive to molecular
#architecture. No, you're not going to be able to distill motor oil
without
#a pretty decent vacuum, or a nitrogen atmosphere to prevent air
oxidation.
#
#You're probably better off looking at impurities and their effects.

it would be nice, except commercial products are loaded with addtives
which mask heterocyclic compounds (natural).
true, some heterocycles act as very good anti-oxidants

still, I believe that GC is the only quick way to answer the question
- mineral or synthetic?

I
#remember a Mobil One commercial from the 1980s ('70s?), where they
poured
#oil into a skillet and heated it up to frying temperature. The
fossil oil
#blackened and turned tarry well before the synthetic (or so they
claimed),
#probably as a result of unavoidable low levels of S, N and O
impurities.
#Might be worth the cost of a few skillets to find out if this really
works.
#Be sure to put the local fire department on speed dial first.
#
#Eric Lucas
#
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lucasea@sbcglobal.net
science forum beginner


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

"nailer" <me@home.universe.org> wrote in message
news:pbmmb2tgpjf5eqf6qdv4gcjmaf77s06flg@4ax.com...
Quote:
both types contain additives, the same additives. The only real
difference is a base oil. Base oils for both types are of the same
class - hydrocarbons. Do you know a specific reaction to differentiate
between a mixture of hydrocarbons and a single compound of that class?

Try boiling temperature range, should be narrower for fully synthetic.
Can it be done without vacuum distillation?

Synthetic oils are not single compounds, they are still mixtures, even
though they are more uniform in molecular architecture.

FP range might be a better measure, since it's probably more sensitive to
molecular architecture and less sensitive to MWD. BP range is the
opposite--very sensitive to MWD, not very sensitive to molecular
architecture. No, you're not going to be able to distill motor oil without
a pretty decent vacuum, or a nitrogen atmosphere to prevent air oxidation.

You're probably better off looking at impurities and their effects. I
remember a Mobil One commercial from the 1980s ('70s?), where they poured
oil into a skillet and heated it up to frying temperature. The fossil oil
blackened and turned tarry well before the synthetic (or so they claimed),
probably as a result of unavoidable low levels of S, N and O impurities.
Might be worth the cost of a few skillets to find out if this really works.
Be sure to put the local fire department on speed dial first.

Eric Lucas
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lucasea@sbcglobal.net
science forum beginner


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

"Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nospm.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ZLVug.2330$us.475@trnddc04...
Quote:
Apparently first generation (early Mobil 1) synthetics were esters,

I very much doubt that. Not only is saponification a problem in the
presence of a small trace of water and the general base additives put in the
oil to combat combustion acidity, but you also get E2-type chemistry at high
temperatures in the presence of a general base catalyst.

Quote:
but these have been replaced with polyalphaolefins (current Mobil 1)
somewhere in the 300-500 MW range.

My memory is that they are medium MW poly(isobutylene)--300 - 500 sounds
right. The ubiquitous presence of CH2CMe2 repeat units should give a
distinctive IR band, as should the -CH2-C(Me)=CH2 endgroup. Both of these
will be very different in fossil oils.

Eric Lucas
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nailer
science forum beginner


Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

I know only one oil with esters as additives. Esters are less stable
than hydrocarbons. if you are right, them saponification would be an
answer. check MSDS for full synthetic oils. but I wouldn't bet a
dollar.

On 17 Jul 2006 15:16:20 -0700, "Bob M" <molab@ww.co.nz> wrote:

#
#I thought the so called synthetic oils were ester oils.
#They are more polar and adhere to metal surfaces better giving less
#metal to metal contact and hence less wear.
#
#Bob M
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Carl Ijames
science forum beginner


Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

Apparently first generation (early Mobil 1) synthetics were esters, but
these have been replaced with polyalphaolefins (current Mobil 1)
somewhere in the 300-500 MW range. Not sure what the base stock is in
synthetic Penzoil but they use dendrimer additives for viscosity
control. I read all this here on the Internet, so it MUST be true, or
at least worth what you are paying for it Smile. I think the hydrocarbons
hold up better than the esters, which slowly hydrolyze, and may be more
compatible with gaskets and seals.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

"Bob M" <molab@ww.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1153174580.660459.133920@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

I thought the so called synthetic oils were ester oils.
They are more polar and adhere to metal surfaces better giving less
metal to metal contact and hence less wear.

Bob M
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Bob M
science forum addict


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

I thought the so called synthetic oils were ester oils.
They are more polar and adhere to metal surfaces better giving less
metal to metal contact and hence less wear.

Bob M
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nailer
science forum beginner


Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

25% are additives, apparently similar for both oils. How do you
propose to fingerprint a mixture of similar hydrocarbons?
If you have samples of various oils, you can scan, then compare with
an unknown. Sometimes it works, mainly due to different aromatic
content.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:33:24 +0200, "SFF" <anyuser@anycompany.com>
wrote:

#
#U?ytkownik "Robert Scott" <---@---> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
#news:44ba8072.785484@news.provide.net...
#> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:41:40 GMT, nailer <me@home.universe.org>
wrote:
#>
#> >find someone with an access to GC. Run a known full synthetic oil
and
#> >normal mineral lubricating oil (fingerprinting). Compare all
three.
#>
#> Gas Chromatograph? I was hoping that it would be easier than that.
#>
#
#fingerprint with IR spectrometry ?
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nailer
science forum beginner


Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

both types contain additives, the same additives. The only real
difference is a base oil. Base oils for both types are of the same
class - hydrocarbons. Do you know a specific reaction to differentiate
between a mixture of hydrocarbons and a single compound of that class?

Try boiling temperature range, should be narrower for fully synthetic.
Can it be done without vacuum distillation?

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 18:09:03 GMT, ---@--- (Robert Scott) wrote:

#On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:41:40 GMT, nailer <me@home.universe.org>
wrote:
#
#>find someone with an access to GC. Run a known full synthetic oil
and
#>normal mineral lubricating oil (fingerprinting). Compare all three.
#
#Gas Chromatograph? I was hoping that it would be easier than that.
#
#
#Robert Scott
#Ypsilanti, Michigan
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anyuser
science forum beginner


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

Użytkownik "Robert Scott" <---@---> napisał w wiadomości
news:44ba8072.785484@news.provide.net...
Quote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:41:40 GMT, nailer <me@home.universe.org> wrote:

find someone with an access to GC. Run a known full synthetic oil and
normal mineral lubricating oil (fingerprinting). Compare all three.

Gas Chromatograph? I was hoping that it would be easier than that.


fingerprint with IR spectrometry ?
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Robert Scott
science forum beginner


Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:41:40 GMT, nailer <me@home.universe.org> wrote:

Quote:
find someone with an access to GC. Run a known full synthetic oil and
normal mineral lubricating oil (fingerprinting). Compare all three.

Gas Chromatograph? I was hoping that it would be easier than that.


Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
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nailer
science forum beginner


Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

find someone with an access to GC. Run a known full synthetic oil and
normal mineral lubricating oil (fingerprinting). Compare all three.


On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 09:40:30 GMT, no-one@dont-mail-me.com (Robert
Scott) wrote:

#Is there any chemical or physical test I can perform on the oil in my
#car engine to determine if it is ordinary oil or full synthetic using
#materials I might find around the home?
#
#
#-Robert Scott
# Ypsilanti, Michigan
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Robert Scott
science forum beginner


Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Detecting synthetic oil Reply with quote

Is there any chemical or physical test I can perform on the oil in my
car engine to determine if it is ordinary oil or full synthetic using
materials I might find around the home?


-Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
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