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Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton
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Frreita
science forum addict


Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Chuck Grempu wrote:
Quote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.
Back to top
Frreita
science forum addict


Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
Quote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

google for it, or wiki wax it.
Back to top
Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Chuck Grempu wrote:
Quote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

google for it, or wiki wax it.

Proton = 1.6726 × 10^-27 kg (938.3 MeV/c^2)

Electron = 9.11 × 10^-31 kg (0.51 MeV/c^2)

Difference = 1.671689 × 10^-27 kg (937.79 MeV/c^2)

So what? The difference in mass isn't much.
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Chuck Grempu wrote:
Quote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

How does mass have anything to do with the strength of the coloumb
barrier?

> google for it, or wiki wax it.
Back to top
Y.Porat
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Radium wrote:
Quote:
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?


Thanks,

Radium
---------------------------

before thinking about it
let me ask a linman question

is youre assumpton that the electron barrier more difficult to overcome
a fact ??

overcome how in what circumsatnces in waht specific cases
i am not ashamed to admit i never was aware of it ........if right
it seems a challenge to answer and mightbe a good question

TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------
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hhc314@yahoo.com
science forum addict


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Try expressing the mass difference by finding out how many electrons
are required to equal the mass of one proton. It is a very large
difference, almost 3 orders of magnitude.

It's similar to comparing the mass of a small chicken to that of a
large cow, just to put things into perspective.It's been a long time
since undergraudate physics, but IIRC the ratio turns out to be
something like 1800.

Lemme see here:
proton mass/electron mass = 1.6726 × 10^-27 / 9.11 × 10^-31 = 1833
(check my math)

I'd say that's a pretty significant difference.

Harry C.


Radium wrote:
Quote:
Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

google for it, or wiki wax it.

Proton = 1.6726 × 10^-27 kg (938.3 MeV/c^2)

Electron = 9.11 × 10^-31 kg (0.51 MeV/c^2)

Difference = 1.671689 × 10^-27 kg (937.79 MeV/c^2)

So what? The difference in mass isn't much.
Back to top
Y.Porat
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
Try expressing the mass difference by finding out how many electrons
are required to equal the mass of one proton. It is a very large
difference, almost 3 orders of magnitude.

It's similar to comparing the mass of a small chicken to that of a
large cow, just to put things into perspective.It's been a long time
since undergraudate physics, but IIRC the ratio turns out to be
something like 1800.

Lemme see here:
proton mass/electron mass = 1.6726 × 10^-27 / 9.11 × 10^-31 = 1833
(check my math)

I'd say that's a pretty significant difference.

Harry C.
--------------------------

in that case it should be th opposite result
the electron with his same charge would be more illusive
ist it ??
--------------------------------------------
TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------

> .
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hhc314@yahoo.com
science forum addict


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Mass has nothing to do with the strength of coulomb barrier.

It has a great deal to do with the method chosen to overcome the
coulomb barrier.

Once again, often in physics an analogy helps people to visualize a
situation better than often do the numbers themselves. Now I will
assume you already know that energy is required to overcome the coulomb
barrier (except of course for quantum mechanical tunneling).

Assume the coulomb barrier to be a 1-inch thick sheet of armor plate.
To pierce it, would you chose a BB or a very dense and massive bullet
made of something like depleted uranium. Which of these two projectiles
do you believe would be more practically accelerated to a sufficient
level of kinetic energy to penetrate the barrer?

Also, consider the difficulties associated with elevating or
accelerating electrons to very high energy levels, compared to far more
massive objects like protons and ions. Note the real estate required
for a large electron accelerator, vs. that required to a proton
accelerator. Sill, this is something for another post by another
poster.

Harry C.



Radium wrote:
Quote:
Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

How does mass have anything to do with the strength of the coloumb
barrier?

google for it, or wiki wax it.
Back to top
srp
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Radium a écrit :
Quote:
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?

Underlying the notion of the Coulomb barrier is an assumption that
no magnetic interaction (repulsion) would be at play at all between
electron and proton.

The combined magnetic field of the quarks up and down and the
binding energy making up a proton is bound to be considerably
more intense than that of an electron.

Maybe the strictly electrostatic Coulomb barrier concept would
benefit from being reconsidered.

André Michaud
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Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
Mass has nothing to do with the strength of coulomb barrier.

It has a great deal to do with the method chosen to overcome the
coulomb barrier.

Then why is it SO difficult to fuse deuterium with tritium while it so
easy to fuse carbon to carbon and form graphite?

The temperatures and pressures required for D-T fusion are MUCH higher
than those required for graphite formation. Graphite formation is an
example of "electron fusion" in which electron bonds among the carbons
are generated using high temperatures and pressures such as those close
to the earths core. Nuclear fusion, OTOH, requires millions of degrees
Celsius and millions of atmopheres of pressure. What causes this
requirement?

Quote:

Once again, often in physics an analogy helps people to visualize a
situation better than often do the numbers themselves. Now I will
assume you already know that energy is required to overcome the coulomb
barrier (except of course for quantum mechanical tunneling).

Assume the coulomb barrier to be a 1-inch thick sheet of armor plate.
To pierce it, would you chose a BB or a very dense and massive bullet
made of something like depleted uranium. Which of these two projectiles
do you believe would be more practically accelerated to a sufficient
level of kinetic energy to penetrate the barrer?

Also, consider the difficulties associated with elevating or
accelerating electrons to very high energy levels, compared to far more
massive objects like protons and ions. Note the real estate required
for a large electron accelerator, vs. that required to a proton
accelerator. Sill, this is something for another post by another
poster.

Harry C.



Radium wrote:
Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

How does mass have anything to do with the strength of the coloumb
barrier?

google for it, or wiki wax it.
Back to top
Greg Neill
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 180

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153240163.324367.19840@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
Mass has nothing to do with the strength of coulomb barrier.

It has a great deal to do with the method chosen to overcome the
coulomb barrier.

Then why is it SO difficult to fuse deuterium with tritium while it so
easy to fuse carbon to carbon and form graphite?

The temperatures and pressures required for D-T fusion are MUCH higher
than those required for graphite formation. Graphite formation is an
example of "electron fusion" in which electron bonds among the carbons
are generated using high temperatures and pressures such as those close
to the earths core. Nuclear fusion, OTOH, requires millions of degrees
Celsius and millions of atmopheres of pressure. What causes this
requirement?

Graphite formation is just common chemistry involving
the outer electrons and binding energies of a few
electron volts. Nuclear reactions involve much higher
energies, hence require much higher temperatures.
Back to top
Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Radium wrote:
Quote:
Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

google for it, or wiki wax it.

Proton = 1.6726 × 10^-27 kg (938.3 MeV/c^2)

Electron = 9.11 × 10^-31 kg (0.51 MeV/c^2)

Difference = 1.671689 × 10^-27 kg (937.79 MeV/c^2)

So what? The difference in mass isn't much.

Not much. Only three orders of magnitude!
Back to top
Radium
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

Greg Neill wrote:
Quote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153240163.324367.19840@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
Mass has nothing to do with the strength of coulomb barrier.

It has a great deal to do with the method chosen to overcome the
coulomb barrier.

Then why is it SO difficult to fuse deuterium with tritium while it so
easy to fuse carbon to carbon and form graphite?

The temperatures and pressures required for D-T fusion are MUCH higher
than those required for graphite formation. Graphite formation is an
example of "electron fusion" in which electron bonds among the carbons
are generated using high temperatures and pressures such as those close
to the earths core. Nuclear fusion, OTOH, requires millions of degrees
Celsius and millions of atmopheres of pressure. What causes this
requirement?


Graphite formation is just common chemistry involving
the outer electrons and binding energies of a few
electron volts.

Okay.

Quote:
Nuclear reactions involve much higher
energies, hence require much higher temperatures.

But it is to break the protons' coloumb barriers that such high
temperatures and pressures are required. Right?

If the strength of the coloumb barrier was somehow decreased, would
this decrease the temperature and pressure requirement to initiate
nuclear fusion? I guess so but I could be wrong.

Moreover, if nuclear reactions involve such high energies, then why is
nuclear fission so much easier to accomplish than nuclear fusion?

Why does nuclear fusion require so much higher temperatures and
pressures than nuclear fission?
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hhc314@yahoo.com
science forum addict


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Coulomb barriers -- Electron vs. Proton Reply with quote

I believe that Greg Neil explained this to you very clearly.

Other than that, it would appear to me that somehow you are confusing
fusion of the nuclei of two atoms with the fusing of two electrons, the
latter being something I am unaware has ever been observed...but it's
been a long while since I've been involved in this stuff.

Right or wrong, I can tell you that until you learn the basic
fundamentals of nuclear physics, you won't be in a position to grasp
the more advanced relearch topics and problems. I'd suggest that you
purchase a copy of Sears and Zemansky or Halliday and Resnick, learn
the basics, then proceed onward from there. With your inquisitive mind,
I believe that you would enjoy and benefit from either of these classic
introductory physics texts.

Harry C.




Radium wrote:
Quote:
hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
Mass has nothing to do with the strength of coulomb barrier.

It has a great deal to do with the method chosen to overcome the
coulomb barrier.

Then why is it SO difficult to fuse deuterium with tritium while it so
easy to fuse carbon to carbon and form graphite?

The temperatures and pressures required for D-T fusion are MUCH higher
than those required for graphite formation. Graphite formation is an
example of "electron fusion" in which electron bonds among the carbons
are generated using high temperatures and pressures such as those close
to the earths core. Nuclear fusion, OTOH, requires millions of degrees
Celsius and millions of atmopheres of pressure. What causes this
requirement?


Once again, often in physics an analogy helps people to visualize a
situation better than often do the numbers themselves. Now I will
assume you already know that energy is required to overcome the coulomb
barrier (except of course for quantum mechanical tunneling).

Assume the coulomb barrier to be a 1-inch thick sheet of armor plate.
To pierce it, would you chose a BB or a very dense and massive bullet
made of something like depleted uranium. Which of these two projectiles
do you believe would be more practically accelerated to a sufficient
level of kinetic energy to penetrate the barrer?

Also, consider the difficulties associated with elevating or
accelerating electrons to very high energy levels, compared to far more
massive objects like protons and ions. Note the real estate required
for a large electron accelerator, vs. that required to a proton
accelerator. Sill, this is something for another post by another
poster.

Harry C.



Radium wrote:
Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153194028.485540.33100@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Grempu wrote:
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1153180526.982086.45860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Hi:

A proton has a charge of 1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. An electron has a
charge of -1.6022 × 10^-19 coulombs. This means that an electron
and a proton have the same amount of charge -- just in opposite
polarities. So why is the coulomb barrier of a proton so much more
difficult to overcome than the coulomb barrier of an electron?




because it is made of sheepskin.

No offense but I asked a serious question. Please respond with
scientific answers and leave out the junk.


what is the difference in masses, Rotium ?

How does mass have anything to do with the strength of the coloumb
barrier?

google for it, or wiki wax it.
Back to top
Google

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