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Guy Gordon
science forum beginner

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 22

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: magnetic propeties from spinning electric field

"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

 Quote: Now, physicists have also hesitated to connect an electron's magnetic field with moving charge, because the electron's spin field is too strong for its charge to cause it relativistic/classically, unless the electron is *either* much larger than the minimum it has been measured to be (by scattering), or *else* is spinning much faster than c. Since this seems a contradiction, it's simply been tabled.

What, exactly, do you mean by "spinning much faster than c"?
A rate of spin is expressed in turns per unit of time.
A speed, is expressed in length per unit of time.
They are not compatible measurements, and cannot be compared.

You must be assuming a radius for the electron.
What are you using?
PD
science forum Guru

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

Franz Heymann wrote:

And in a sense, I can understand the confusion, which stems from a
basic intuitive misconception that length is somehow an intrinsic
property of an object. Getting oneself to abandon that is tricky.

PD
Tom Capizzi
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 162

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:ctqfcu\$832\$8@sparta.btinternet.com...
 Quote: "Tom Capizzi" wrote in message news:mLWLd.2193\$ya6.841@trndny01... "Franz Heymann" wrote in message news:ctp0j9\$kih\$1@hercules.btinternet.com... "Tom Capizzi" wrote in message news:2HRLd.420\$t46.371@trndny04... "TomGee" wrote in message news:1107279972.314247.150990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... To: Tom Cappizzi Neither of the twins can see each other, and they don't, until the astronaut twin lands back on Earth. I did not say both of them age slower; SR claims the astronaut twin ages slower than his Earthbound twin I know that isn't what you said. This particular claim is not the paradox, either. This is merely time dilation. There is no actual time dilation; it is only an effect resulting from the fact that the time rate of the spaceship slowed compared to the Earth's time rate each and everytime the ship's speed exceeded the Earth's speed. Each time the ship went faster, it aged at a rate slower than the Earth. And that is time dilation. Maybe you should inform us what you define time dilation to be. And what does "by the relative nature of velocity" mean? That means that the earthbound twin observes the traveler to be moving away from earth in some direction, say +x, at some velocity +v. The traveler observes the earth moving away from him along the x axis at -v. Since the relativistic factor gamma depends on the square of relative velocity, each sees the other as time dilated by the same factor. That is the paradox. No. That is not what is usually thought of as being the paradox. The paradox only comes to light when they get together again. Technically, I should have written that each expects to see the other as time dilated by the same factor at the end of the trip. However, is it not also true that each would "see" clocks in the other's frame of reference running slow during the trip? They cannot make the comparison at all until they meet up again.

Agreed that they can't compare each other's clock until they meet.
But Special Relativity is not restricted to a couple of clocks in specific
locations (or paths). It is perfectly legitimate to imagine that an entire
network of clocks has been installed along the course. Einstein gives
a procedure for synchronizing all of them. Then doesn't the astronaut
observe all the stationary clocks along the way running slow?

 Quote: It says the following: If A was the stationary one, B is the younger one at reunion BUT look at it from the point of view of B. He says A was in motion and A is therefore the younger one. What is the right conclusion? The solution has been put into this ng so many times that it should be unnecassary to do so yet again. Is it in the FAQ? I don't know But it is rooted in the fact that A measures his proper time between the departuret and reunion events by measuring it along a straight world line and B measures his along a curved or bent world line. Franz
Davorak
science forum beginner

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 9

 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Virtual particles If particle A and B are spontaneously created out of the vacuum they are not required to destroy each other. Lets say A is the particle and B is the anti-particle. A and B spring into existence B could meet up with C and those two could destroy each other. This leaves A to roam free. C and A are the same type of particle. This still conserves vacuum energy. As far as I know A and B spawn almost on top of each other then destroy each other a little ways off or at the same spot. Again as far as I know A and B would not be created half way across the universe from each other. While this my be possible, it would be highly unlikely. They usually destroy each other because one is a particle and the other is an antiparticle. Meaning that they have equal and opposite charge. So they attract through the electric field.
Tom Capizzi
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 162

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

Sorry if this is a duplicate. Outlook Express gets mixed up by
included formulas, and I'm not sure this post was actually sent.

"Tom Capizzi" <etianshrdlu@verizon.net> wrote in message news:...
TomGee
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 636

 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast? To: Tom Capizzi No, it is untrue that they can't compare each other's clocks during the trip. Video communications are not impossible so long as the speed of both observers remains below c. But what's the point? The experiment has nothing to do with whether or not they can tell each other's passed time during the trip. It has only to do with the fact that if they meet up again they will see the differences in their ages. TomGee
TomGee
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 636

 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast? No, Franz, it has nothing to do with that atall. A does no measuring of his time and neither does B and since world lines are a product of the imaginary time-space math construct, they also have nothing to do whatsoever with the Twin Paradox experiment. TomGee
TomGee
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 636

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

Oh, Franz, so you are "Michael Levin"? Or did you think I was talking
to you?
TomGee
Franz Heymann
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 282

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

"Tom Capizzi" <etianshrdlu@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_X5Md.2995\$ya6.2238@trndny01...
 Quote: "Franz Heymann" wrote in message news:ctqfcu\$832\$8@sparta.btinternet.com... "Tom Capizzi" wrote in message news:mLWLd.2193\$ya6.841@trndny01... "Franz Heymann" wrote in message news:ctp0j9\$kih\$1@hercules.btinternet.com... "Tom Capizzi" wrote in message news:2HRLd.420\$t46.371@trndny04... "TomGee" wrote in message news:1107279972.314247.150990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... To: Tom Cappizzi Neither of the twins can see each other, and they don't, until the astronaut twin lands back on Earth. I did not say both of them age slower; SR claims the astronaut twin ages slower than his Earthbound twin I know that isn't what you said. This particular claim is not the paradox, either. This is merely time dilation. There is no actual time dilation; it is only an effect resulting from the fact that the time rate of the spaceship slowed compared to the Earth's time rate each and everytime the ship's speed exceeded the Earth's speed. Each time the ship went faster, it aged at a rate slower than the Earth. And that is time dilation. Maybe you should inform us what you define time dilation to be. And what does "by the relative nature of velocity" mean? That means that the earthbound twin observes the traveler to be moving away from earth in some direction, say +x, at some velocity +v. The traveler observes the earth moving away from him along the x axis at -v. Since the relativistic factor gamma depends on the square of relative velocity, each sees the other as time dilated by the same factor. That is the paradox. No. That is not what is usually thought of as being the paradox. The paradox only comes to light when they get together again. Technically, I should have written that each expects to see the other as time dilated by the same factor at the end of the trip. However, is it not also true that each would "see" clocks in the other's frame of reference running slow during the trip? They cannot make the comparison at all until they meet up again. Agreed that they can't compare each other's clock until they meet. But Special Relativity is not restricted to a couple of clocks in specific locations (or paths). It is perfectly legitimate to imagine that an entire network of clocks has been installed along the course. Einstein gives a procedure for synchronizing all of them. Then doesn't the astronaut observe all the stationary clocks along the way running slow?

Yes. I think you are right. He will see all the clocks reading low
as he passes each one.

[snip]

Franz
FrediFizzx
science forum Guru

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Virtual particles "Davorak" wrote in message news:1107357385.924852.156720@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... | If particle A and B are spontaneously created out of the vacuum they | are not required to destroy each other. Lets say A is the particle and | B is the anti-particle. A and B spring into existence B could meet up | with C and those two could destroy each other. This leaves A to roam | free. C and A are the same type of particle. This still conserves | vacuum energy. In fact, you can apply this to real elementary fermions also. A real electron can swap with a virtual electron. Who is going to know or be able to tell the difference? | As far as I know A and B spawn almost on top of each other then destroy | each other a little ways off or at the same spot. | | Again as far as I know A and B would not be created half way across the | universe from each other. While this my be possible, it would be | highly unlikely. The probability definitely approaches zero. | They usually destroy each other because one is a particle and the other | is an antiparticle. Meaning that they have equal and opposite charge. | So they attract through the electric field. Yep. They don't get too far away from each other most of the time unless there is some kind of external help. FrediFizzx
Tom Capizzi
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 162

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 Quote: To: Tom Capizzi No, it is untrue that they can't compare each other's clocks during the trip. Video communications are not impossible so long as the speed of both observers remains below c. But what's the point?

Comparison of each other's clock is complicated by the limitations of
light speed. It is not impossible, but it is non-trivial. As I mentioned to
Franz, I was referring to the hypothetical grid of synchronized clocks
that Special Relativity assumes. All along the way there can be clocks
which will also show the time dilation. Given that the traveler does age
less, do you suppose it happens all at once? The Paradox doesn't
spontaneously appear only at the end of the trip. During the trip,
observers stationed at the remote clocks would also swear that the
onboard clock of the traveler was running slow, even as he swears
that the remote clocks were running slow.

 Quote: The experiment has nothing to do with whether or not they can tell each other's passed time during the trip. It has only to do with the fact that if they meet up again they will see the differences in their ages. TomGee
Franz Heymann
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 282

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 Quote: No, Franz, it has nothing to do with that atall. A does no measuring of his time and neither does B and since world lines are a product of the imaginary time-space math construct, they also have nothing to do whatsoever with the Twin Paradox experiment.

If you had not removed every vestige of headers and context, I might

Franz
Franz Heymann
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 282

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast?

"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 Quote: Oh, Franz, so you are "Michael Levin"? Or did you think I was talking to you?

Franz
TomGee
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 636

 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this "internal clock" in muon which slows down its rate of decay when they move very fast? Oh, Franz, did I do that? TomGee
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 106

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