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New Solenoid Experiment
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Kirk Shanahan
science forum addict


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Shines on New LENR Approach Reply with quote

Here we go again!

For a critique of the Letts-Cravens Effect, see:

From: "Kirk Shanahan" <kirk.shana...@srs.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Cmts. on Storms ICCF10 Paper - Letts Effect
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:50:13 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <806722ae1fe352f3c103c2ba78a0dbbc.38703@mygate.mailgate.org>

Comments on "Use of a very sensitive Seebeck calorimeter to study
the Pons-Fleischmann and Letts Effects by Edmund Storms" presented
at the 10th Int'l Conf. on Cold Fusion, held in Cambridge,
Massachusetts 24 - 29 August 2003, by Dr. Edmund Storms (ES).

By the way, since the FPHE s real and at least partially reproducible,
the Letts-Cravens effect should be also. 600 runs proves that I guess.

And, just for fun (I still get a chuckle out of this one):

From: kirk.shana...@srs.gov (Kirk L. Shanahan)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Review of the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion
(ICCF10)
Date: 1 Dec 2003 07:49:23 -0800
Message-ID: <9acdab21.0312010749.25eb460f@posting.google.com>
References: <cd2ccfd9.0311301534.2ded5af6@posting.google.com>


Also, I see we are back to using dental film. In:


From: kirk.shana...@srs.gov (Kirk L. Shanahan)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR year end statistics
Date: 22 Jan 2003 04:50:41 -0800
Message-ID: <9acdab21.0301220450.23108668@posting.google.com>

I commented:


"Look up 'hypering' on the Internet, and then also realize th­at heat
exposes film."

That comment still stands.

---
Kirk Shanahan {My opinions...noone else's}




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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Chris
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

Well, Gauss did not specify the length of his magnetic shells (or current
loops) but a solenoid is only a set of coaxial current loops along a
straight line. Every current loop is the same so it should not matter how
many or where you make your measurement only that it has to be enclosed by
the current loop. I would of thought a current sheet would give the same
answer too.

The experiment is the truth, theory is only theory and we must only trust
experiment.

There are no infinite solenoids only "short" ones.

If a theory makes a prediction and one experiment falsifies it then the
whole premise on which the theory is based is wrong.

Gauss is a nice simple theory which looks like it should be true and it was
invented by one of the worlds cleverist mathemeticians far cleverer than I.
I have only calculated the field by using the biot-savart hypothesis because
it seemed logical. However the simple experiment I did gives a result
consistant with my calculation but falsifies the gauss construction. I can
see nothing wrong with the gauss construction except that it cannot be drawn
and that it gives the wrong answer.

A similar problem has occured in Gravity theory. Newton quite rightly
descibes the field inside a uniformly distributed massive sphere as zero,
but people wrongly apply this to disks, like a galaxy and do they apply it
to the solar system, after all the gravitational field of Jupiter pulls the
earth but incorrectly applying Newtons shell theory to this point mass would
appear that Jupiter does not pull the Earth, but it does.

Perhaps some of the "Dark Matter" is really due to a misapplication of the
Newton theory of shells.

The Gaussian constructions in electrostatics are correct mainly because
conductors carry mobile charges so conducting charged shells have to field
inside no matter their shape.

Magnetic shells (current loops) are not spherical and so arguments based on
the inverse square law and infinitesimal current elements in a Sphere do not
apply. Flat circular shells give a field inside, similar to a charged ring
of copper, there is a similar field distribution in a charged ring too.

The field is highest at the wire and falls linearly to a minumum at the axis
in a "V".

This is a consequence of the inverse square law and the circular geometry.

Gauss is said never to have performed experiments he only sat a thought and
drew and wrote on bits of paper. He is a far cleverer mathemetician that I
and could do almost everything better that I have knowledge of. My
knowledge is limited, I only have a General Degree in Physics and Chemistry
and another two Open University degrees including Mathematics.

But I only scored an upper second as the highest score in the three.

This idea came to me as an A level student and I have been punished for it
ever since because "Gauss was right". So why do all calculations of
inductance based on his methods give an answer too low, my calculation gives
a more accurate one, when the method is properly applied?

OK so no one takes any notice - I'm a nut. OK OK.

I'm now old and cannot compete with younger people.

Chris.

"Nick Rouse" <nick@rouse.123isp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:43d7173f.0503230155.49b2a88e@posting.google.com...
Quote:
"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<FEy%d.109898$y25.31534@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
Hello,

I've just done another experiment with a simple apparatus of a solenoid
and
a compass.

I set the long axis of the solenoid to point East-West and placed a
compass
at the centre of the solenoid.

I measured the deflection for 1Amp (328 degrees) then at a point close to
the windings (321 degrees). This indicates that the magnetic field near
the
windings of a solenoid is higher than along the long axis.

This indicates that a solenoid carrying alternating current could be used
to
contain, compress and extract power from a thermonuclear reacting plasma.

See my web page on:
http://www.chrisspages.co.uk go to chris's crazy iseas and then look at
"new
solenoid experiment"

My apparatus is extremely simple and shows that the Gauss construction of
magnetic shells gives the wrong answer.

Chris Strevens.

Exactly what you would expect with a solenoid of finite length.
Nick Rouse
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Jim Logajan
science forum beginner


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
Under what conditions is the field across a diameter of a solenoid
uniform. I was not talking about the ends.

Infinitely long "ideal" solenoids would have a uniform field across the
diameter. Real-world, finite-length solenoids don't have uniform fields
anywhere within them, even at the plane that bisects it. Here are some
pictures of magnetic field lines of finite-length solenoids:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/elemag.html

If you look closely, the distance between the field lines is not uniform
even in the center of the depected solenoids.

Also, keep in mind that the needle of your compass is of finite length - it
cannot measure the direction of the field at an infinitesimal point.

Quote:
See my web page on:
http://www.chrisspages.co.uk go to chris's crazy iseas and then look
at "new solenoid experiment"

I looked at your photos but am not sure what I'm looking at. I get the
impression that your solenoid is about a foot long and a foot in diameter
with only 3 or so windings with 1 amp flowing through. Is that correct?
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Jim Logajan
science forum beginner


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
Well, Gauss did not specify the length of his magnetic shells (or
current loops) but a solenoid is only a set of coaxial current loops
along a straight line. Every current loop is the same so it should
not matter how many or where you make your measurement only that it
has to be enclosed by the current loop. I would of thought a current
sheet would give the same answer too.

A current flowing around a curved sheet and a current flowing around a
coiled wire will yield quite different results - per Gauss.

Quote:
The experiment is the truth, theory is only theory and we must only
trust experiment.

There are no infinite solenoids only "short" ones.

If a theory makes a prediction and one experiment falsifies it then
the whole premise on which the theory is based is wrong.

Your experiment is, I'm sorry to say, rather crude and poorly executed.
Maxwell's equations have been the basis for the design of solenoids,
electric motors, transformers, and a host of other electromagnetic devices
for over a century. And quite successfully.

Quote:
So why do all
calculations of inductance based on his methods give an answer too
low, my calculation gives a more accurate one, when the method is
properly applied?

Are your calculations on your site? It's impossible to compare your work
without seeing it.
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Chris
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

Hello

Well thank you for your indulgance. Yes the solenoid is 10" square with
about 6 turns of widely spaced tinned copper wire.

I did do maxwells equations in physics but I don't know how to apply to a
solenoid.

Even if an infinite solenoid does have an even field distribution and these
results of mine only apply to that case, it does strike me that a solenoid
like mine or wound round a toroid could, because of the potential well near
the axis, be used to contain a plasma. If you look at my web page the
calculations and experiments seem to show that not only could it confine a
plasma but also heat and extract power.


"Jim Logajan" <JamesL@Lugoj.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9622A6540AC8JamesLLugojcom@216.168.3.30...
Quote:
"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
Under what conditions is the field across a diameter of a solenoid
uniform. I was not talking about the ends.

Infinitely long "ideal" solenoids would have a uniform field across the
diameter. Real-world, finite-length solenoids don't have uniform fields
anywhere within them, even at the plane that bisects it. Here are some
pictures of magnetic field lines of finite-length solenoids:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/elemag.html

If you look closely, the distance between the field lines is not uniform
even in the center of the depected solenoids.

Also, keep in mind that the needle of your compass is of finite length -
it
cannot measure the direction of the field at an infinitesimal point.

See my web page on:
http://www.chrisspages.co.uk go to chris's crazy iseas and then look
at "new solenoid experiment"

I looked at your photos but am not sure what I'm looking at. I get the
impression that your solenoid is about a foot long and a foot in diameter
with only 3 or so windings with 1 amp flowing through. Is that correct?
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Nick Rouse
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:<FEy%d.109898$y25.31534@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
Quote:
Hello,

I've just done another experiment with a simple apparatus of a solenoid and
a compass.

I set the long axis of the solenoid to point East-West and placed a compass
at the centre of the solenoid.

I measured the deflection for 1Amp (328 degrees) then at a point close to
the windings (321 degrees). This indicates that the magnetic field near the
windings of a solenoid is higher than along the long axis.

This indicates that a solenoid carrying alternating current could be used to
contain, compress and extract power from a thermonuclear reacting plasma.

See my web page on:
http://www.chrisspages.co.uk go to chris's crazy iseas and then look at "new
solenoid experiment"

My apparatus is extremely simple and shows that the Gauss construction of
magnetic shells gives the wrong answer.

Chris Strevens.

Exactly what you would expect with a solenoid of finite length.
Nick Rouse
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SPHINX Technologies
science forum beginner


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Book - Unification of Electromagnetism and Gravity Available Now! Reply with quote

In article <ENdWd.42503$Qz1.26050@fe2.texas.rr.com>,
Morituri-|-Max <newage@sendarico.net> wrote:
Quote:
... why do you have to hawk it when you can show people how
to build fusion reactors?

Fusion reactors are dangerous and obsolete. If you've gotta play
around with fusion, at least make it COLD fusion, or sonoluminescence-
based fusion.

But as I said, fusion is obsolete. Besides, why do you want to run
us all out of hydrogen? You humans are SO short-sighted!
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Guest






PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: (",) Do You Want To Know For Sure You Are Going To Heaven? Reply with quote

I really don't give a good Damn about your prattle.. Dead is dead, the
brain decomposes, its electical activity ceases, and everything that we

knew as life is gone.


If you want to place some sort of strange religous or superstitious
faith in your 'God-On-A-Stick' and Gospel, more power to you. Still,
keep your superstitious spew and spam off the scientific newsgroups
otherwise you simply come across as some kid that goes to school on the

'short bus', or someone that is being sexually or otherwise abused by
their relatives. As they probably say in your neck of the woods: "Pass
more turnips Zeke, and did you see the ass on that kid? I'd sure like
to do her/him."


Post like your's shame real Christians, and you are risking having
those taking offense to your post spamming to your 'Born Again'
newsgroups... As a matter of fact, I think I will copy this post to as

many 'Born Again' newsgroups as I can quickly locate. Perhaps it will
elevate their intelligence a bit!


Harry C.
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Chris
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

"Jim Logajan" <JamesL@Lugoj.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9622A840AE47CJamesLLugojcom@216.168.3.30...
Quote:
"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
Well, Gauss did not specify the length of his magnetic shells (or
current loops) but a solenoid is only a set of coaxial current loops
along a straight line. Every current loop is the same so it should
not matter how many or where you make your measurement only that it
has to be enclosed by the current loop. I would of thought a current
sheet would give the same answer too.

A current flowing around a curved sheet and a current flowing around a
coiled wire will yield quite different results - per Gauss.

The experiment is the truth, theory is only theory and we must only
trust experiment.

There are no infinite solenoids only "short" ones.

If a theory makes a prediction and one experiment falsifies it then
the whole premise on which the theory is based is wrong.

Your experiment is, I'm sorry to say, rather crude and poorly executed.
Maxwell's equations have been the basis for the design of solenoids,
electric motors, transformers, and a host of other electromagnetic devices
for over a century. And quite successfully.

So why do all
calculations of inductance based on his methods give an answer too
low, my calculation gives a more accurate one, when the method is
properly applied?

Are your calculations on your site? It's impossible to compare your work
without seeing it.

Yes they are under "inductance" within chriss crazy ideas. It is a
numerical calculation of the inductance of some special cases.

I agree my experiments are crude, and not precise, but with such a large
effect precision is not an issue, it is not as if I'm looking for a fraction
of a degree.

I only did the gaussian construction of magnetic shells in undergraduate
physics, but it did not mention the third dimension.

My crude measurements at the end of the solenoid make the field a little
weaker overall but the increase toward the wide is still clear and big.

This must be something we can use.

I do not understand "lines of force" they don't mean anything, except the
direction of the field at the point along the line.
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Chris
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hcE0e.117775$ug2.104702@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

"Jim Logajan" <JamesL@Lugoj.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9622A840AE47CJamesLLugojcom@216.168.3.30...
"Chris" <nimbo@(no-spam)ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
Well, Gauss did not specify the length of his magnetic shells (or
current loops) but a solenoid is only a set of coaxial current loops
along a straight line. Every current loop is the same so it should
not matter how many or where you make your measurement only that it
has to be enclosed by the current loop. I would of thought a current
sheet would give the same answer too.

A current flowing around a curved sheet and a current flowing around a
coiled wire will yield quite different results - per Gauss.

The experiment is the truth, theory is only theory and we must only
trust experiment.

There are no infinite solenoids only "short" ones.

If a theory makes a prediction and one experiment falsifies it then
the whole premise on which the theory is based is wrong.

Your experiment is, I'm sorry to say, rather crude and poorly executed.
Maxwell's equations have been the basis for the design of solenoids,
electric motors, transformers, and a host of other electromagnetic
devices
for over a century. And quite successfully.

So why do all
calculations of inductance based on his methods give an answer too
low, my calculation gives a more accurate one, when the method is
properly applied?

Are your calculations on your site? It's impossible to compare your work
without seeing it.

Yes they are under "inductance" within chriss crazy ideas. It is a
numerical calculation of the inductance of some special cases.

I agree my experiments are crude, and not precise, but with such a large
effect precision is not an issue, it is not as if I'm looking for a
fraction of a degree.

I only did the gaussian construction of magnetic shells in undergraduate
physics, but it did not mention the third dimension.

My crude measurements at the end of the solenoid make the field a little
weaker overall but the increase toward the wide is still clear and big.

This must be something we can use.

I do not understand "lines of force" they don't mean anything, except the
direction of the field at the point along the line.


If I remember we put iron filings on hot wax on a peice of card within a
solenoid and the lines generated were called "lines of force". They form
lines where a plotting compass would point and join up end to end. There is
no indication of the strength of the field, the iren does not know. There
is a supposition that the lines a closer together where the field is
stronger, but if you look outside the coil at the ends extra lines form in
these weaker fields.

The spacing of the lines is not really an indication of the magnetic field
only its direction. To measure the strength I used the principle of the
tangent galvanometer. I undestand about the size of the needle and a short
one attached to a longer pointer would be better, but I don't have one.

Any way we can agree that in any solenoid we can reasonably construct the
field near the wire is stronger than along the axis across any diameter.

I maintain this applies to a solenoid wound round a torus, and such an
arangement could confine a plasma.

I suggest you find some funding and try it...

Chris.
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Guest






PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

Chris (no-spam) wrote:
Quote:
I find that response quite annoying. It implies I do not understand
any
electromagetism.


That's because you don't.
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Chris
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: New Solenoid Experiment Reply with quote

Hello Willie,

I have an elementary knowledge obtained during my reading for a Physics
degree that I passed with honours in 1969. In fact my knowledge was good
enough for me to find work at our leading Radio Research Laboratory, now
known as the Appleton Laboratory.

I did not continue there long however, and later found work in a School. I
did not like the heat!

Unfortunately some people make unsupported remarks in these newsgroups and I
suppose it is a good thing that they do, but insults are not pleasant. It
hurts the insulted and it is easy to trade insults.

If you found my remarks foolish, please say what is wrong and I will take
note. I really only know what I see for myself everything else is only
hearsay. If you want to see if I tell the truth, just set up the experiment
yourself. It is cheap and easy to do. The stabalised power supply was the
most expensive part at £80 ($160) but the former and the loops of wire were
only pence (dimes). The compass was about £5 ($10) but the digital camera to
take the snapshot was about £300 ($600) and the PC, about £1000 ($2000).



Chris.

<willie88@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111700273.435234.18150@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Chris (no-spam) wrote:
I find that response quite annoying. It implies I do not understand
any
electromagetism.


That's because you don't.
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brother Hardy
science forum beginner


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Hot-, bubble-, cold-fusion Reply with quote

edwinlbond@yahoo.com wrote

Quote:
I've never heard anyone measuring the mass of an accelerated
electron and proved that its mass when accelerated is higher

First it was measured by W. Kaufmann and A. Bucherer in
the years 1901 - 1907.

By the way, it was also the first experimental evidence that
- "spezielle Relativitätstheorie" - is true.

brother Hardy
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Kirk Shanahan
science forum addict


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: The gauntlet has been dropped Reply with quote

"Kirk L. Shanahan" <kirk.shanahan@srs.gov> wrote in message
news:9acdab21.0407071128.7418a599@posting.google.com

Quote:
Szpak, Mosier-Boss, Miles, and Fleishmann have published a new CF
paper in Thermochim. Acta 410 (2004) 101, that drops the gauntlet.

{snip}

Final reference to my reply:

Comments on "Thermal behavior of polarized Pd/D electrodes prepared by
co-deposition", Kirk L. Shanahan, Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 428, Issue
1-2, April 2005, pgs 207-212


---
Kirk Shanahan {My opinions...noone else's}
Savannah River National Lab




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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Richard Schultz
science forum Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 339

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: The gauntlet has been dropped Reply with quote

In article <cf70aa1802bdc7e2a22c096fa18b086e.38703@mygate.mailgate.org>, Kirk Shanahan <kirk.shanahan@srs.gov> wrote:
: "Kirk L. Shanahan" <kirk.shanahan@srs.gov> wrote in message
: news:9acdab21.0407071128.7418a599@posting.google.com

:> Szpak, Mosier-Boss, Miles, and Fleishmann have published a new CF
:> paper in Thermochim. Acta 410 (2004) 101, that drops the gauntlet.

Are these the same Spzak and Mosier-Boss who appear (from previously
published work) to be unfamiliar with the concept of "ground loop"?

-----
Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"P&F are getting so much heat that you hardly need any calorimetry at all."
--Jed Rothwell, sci.physics.fusion, 19 Jul 1992
"The palladium based systems are a useless dead end. Who cares about them?"
--Jed Rothwell, sci.physics.fusion, 10 Dec 1992
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