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apm
science forum beginner
Joined: 05 Aug 2005
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject:
Re: Call Bush to Action on Science, Math, and Engineering Education
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"charliew2" <charliew2@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:11fcukq60hcqsaf@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
ckurasek@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123267670.933345.238560@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Below is the text of a petition urging President Bush and our national
leaders to call upon the nation to embark upon a modern-day 'Manhattan
Project' in scientific education and research to protect and extend
America's position of global leadership in technology and science; a
position that becomes more fragile and tenuous every passing day that
we continue to let our public schools lag behind the rest of the
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| Quote: |
I see this problem as somewhat more subtle than most. Several things must
happen to help the situation described above:
* It's fine to graduate a lot of engineers, but there should be jobs
waiting for those graduates. U.S. manufacturing is exporting a lot of
high tech jobs overseas, so there is a bit of a disconnect here regarding
technical training vs. job availability. I expect this trend to continue,
because U.S. engineers are very highly paid relative to their overseas
counterparts,
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The high pay is partially due to the instability of the job market. There
are cyclic shortages followed by oversuplies of engineers.
Lack of support for basic research is a big problem. This support would
provide some stable jobs for scientists and engineers. It would also make
industrial R&D less expensive both because some needed research would
already be done and because engineers could work for less knowing they can
count on a job for more than 2 years. This would encourage more R&D. The
R&D is needed because without innovation - developing new products and
improving old ones - products are just less expensive to produce in places
with less well-developed economies.
I think the U.S. already has the best scientists and engineers in the world.
Many of these are educated in other parts of the world and immigrate to the
U.S. The problem is that the scientific and engineering talent is not well
utilized once in the U.S.
The ecomomy most reciently benifited from development of the internet.
Other inovastions are needed. Cheeper energy would be a good thing.
Unfortunatelly there aren't very many chemical engineers left working in the
U.S.
and U.S. corporations are salivating at the prospect of
| Quote: | getting top technical talent and paying third-world salaries for that
talent.
* I just switched careers from chemical engineering to high school
education, so I will be meeting this problem up close and personal. In my
opinion, the U.S. education system has far bigger problems than
curriculum. There are a LOT of lower socio-economic students out there,
who either have two working parents, or only one. These students often
don't get the benefit of big parental involvement in their schooling
because the parents are too busy trying to make enough money to keep the
family going. Under these conditions, it is practically impossible to
increase the academic achievement of the students because the students are
practically raising themselves, and they are too young to see the benefit
of hard academic work. I will do my best to inspire the students that I
teach, but there are 120 of them and only 1 of me, so I will not be able
to be a surrogate parent for more than a very few of them. Indeed, all of
the teachers that I work with will be in that same situation.
With the two reasons that I gave above, I'm somewhat pessimistic regarding
the long term scientific and technology outlook for the U.S. At this
point, petitions and verbiage are not going to fix the problem. For the
"Manhattan project" that you are talking about above, students' parents
also need to be educated in several areas:
* the need for the student to get a good education
* the need for the parents to get a better education in order to more
easily provide for their families
* the need for the current generation of parents to voluntarily accept a
lower standard of living (where applicable) in order to spend more time
with their children
Obviously, with the very high divorce rate in the U.S., and the strong
desire of the current generation of parents to go into deep debt in order
to keep up with the "Jonses", the U.S. educational problem is going to be
very difficult to solve.
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:16 am Post subject:
Re: Call Bush to Action on Science, Math, and Engineering Education
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I think we need to aim for 15% of all 15yr-olds having PhDs in
15yrs. (cf http://www.geocities.com/vasjp2/educ.txt) Have you ever
seen the 1897 JC NJ HS entrance exam Chris Whittle flails around? Most
BS grads can't pass it today. Today's academia exists for the benefit
of those teaching not of those learning. Inflation. I got my BSChE at 19.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Fooey on GIU,{MS,X}Windows 4 Bimbos] [Cigar smoke belongs in veg food group] |
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rick++
science forum beginner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:25 am Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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| Quote: | The IEEE is finally speaking the truth. For decades, they have be parroting
the dire NSF warnings about shortage of scientists.
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You are unfair. They've always been concerned about high
unemployment among over-40 engineers. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:46 am Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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salmonegg@sbcglobal.net wrote:
| Quote: | On 8/25/05 7:02 PM, in article 878xyptrle.fsf@kafka.homenet,
"rambam@bigpond.net.au" <rambam@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"In an 18 August 2005 letter to the editor of "The Washington Post,"
IEEE-USA President Gerard A. Alphonse criticized a headline in the same
day's "Post" column, "Behind the Shortfall of U.S. Scientists." According
to Dr. Alphonse, "Just because China, India and other nations are
graduating large and increasing numbers of scientists and engineers does
not mean that there is a shortage of science and engineering professionals
in the United States."
The IEEE-USA leader added: "For a true picture, look at the rising
unemployment for U.S. scientists and engineers in recent years and the
percentage of individuals trained in science and engineering who are
working in other fields." He concluded: "Increasingly, we see compensation
that is lagging behind other employment categories, job insecurity, rapid
obsolescence due to technological change, and the looming threat of
offshoring." "
The IEEE is finally speaking the truth. For decades, they have be parroting
the dire NSF warnings about shortage of scientists.
My criterion for shortage is when you boss asks you if you need any clerical
help so that you can spend more of your time at your real work. I cannot
remember that ever happening.
Bill
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My criterion is someone from a highly reputable organization (not
a head hunter) calls you and offers you a job in their organization
at twice the money you're making now. ;-)
Cheers,
Russell |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
| Quote: | rambam@bigpond.net.au wrote:
http://interface2037.com/cms/html/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7
"In an 18 August 2005 letter to the editor of "The Washington Post,"
IEEE-USA President Gerard A. Alphonse criticized a headline in the same
day's "Post" column, "Behind the Shortfall of U.S. Scientists." According
to Dr. Alphonse, "Just because China, India and other nations are
graduating large and increasing numbers of scientists and engineers does
not mean that there is a shortage of science and engineering professionals
in the United States."
True.
The IEEE-USA leader added: "For a true picture, look at the rising
unemployment for U.S. scientists and engineers in recent years and the
percentage of individuals trained in science and engineering who are
working in other fields." He concluded: "Increasingly, we see compensation
that is lagging behind other employment categories, job insecurity, rapid
obsolescence due to technological change, and the looming threat of
offshoring." "
True. Whether or not there is really a shortage depends on demand &
supply. If industry wants manpower of a certain calibre at a certain
price in order to initiate new projects, you can call that a shortage.
If they shelve the project or send it voerseas -there will not be any
shortage as demand adjusts to supply.
By and large, IEEE USA has a racial attitude towards engineers in
other countries.
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What's your evidence of a "racial" attitude? According to its
website it has "more than 365,000 members in over 150 countries,
almost 40 percent of whom are from outside the United States."
I would think if over 140,000 members perceived the situation as
you do, the non-U.S. membership of the IEEE would rapidly drop
to ~0.
| Quote: | They want the profession off limits to engineers in
other countries so that employment among its members can increase to a
reasonable level.
regards
-kamal
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So you admit that employment among IEEE members is below a
reasonable level. I wish my professional societies were more
activist in improving employment levels for me.
Cheers,
Russell |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
| Quote: | True. Whether or not there is really a shortage depends on demand &
supply. If industry wants manpower of a certain calibre at a certain
price in order to initiate new projects, you can call that a shortage.
If they shelve the project or send it voerseas -there will not be any
shortage as demand adjusts to supply.
By and large, IEEE USA has a racial attitude towards engineers in
other countries.
What's your evidence of a "racial" attitude? According to its
I tried locating a link on IEEE USA's page-but could not find it.
|
Then maybe it doesn't exist.
| Quote: | The ex-president of IEEE USA (John Steadman) made a statement to the
effect "currently offshoring is limited to maintenance and s/w
development. But we worry that when companies find that Indians can do
research too -they will find it attractive to move research to India
... and that should not be allowed to happen in order for the US to
maintain its leadership in innovation".
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He's an ex-president, perhaps for a reason? But I don't see
any racism in that statement. Quite the opposite, since he said
Indians can do research, hardly a position likely to be held by
a true racist.
The only thing that could be considered racist in that was
'The one advantage the U.S. still maintains is its culture of
innovation. "Most Indians in the IT industry are programmers,"
says B.R. Sheaker, a recruiter for outsourcing companies in
Bangalore. "They are taught to follow the rules. They lack the
analytical ability to think independently, to be bold." ' I
have no idea who B.R. Sheaker is, but maybe you should talk to
him about his racism and I've never seen him post in these NGs.
| Quote: |
website it has "more than 365,000 members in over 150 countries,
almost 40 percent of whom are from outside the United States."
That is true of IEEE -but not of IEEE USA. That statement was on behalf
of IEEE USA and the article as on http://www.ieeeusa.org/. I may have
mentioned the article in the past on usenet.
I would think if over 140,000 members perceived the situation as
you do, the non-U.S. membership of the IEEE would rapidly drop
to ~0.
Hard to do so. Most scientific work takes place in the western
hemisphere. The bulk of the personnel in any standards group are white
-with a sprinking of non-whites.
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Standards have race? I was unaware that the speed of light varies
for anyone, for instance. In fact, Einstien said it doesn't, and
Michelson and Morley back that up experimentally. Of course, they
were white males, so maybe it is a big conspiracy to keep other
races, and probably women too, from traveling faster than 300,000
km/sec.  Since "Euro boffins increase speed of light"
( http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2141359/euro-boffins-increase-speed
)
maybe physics is a big Euro-centric male conspiracy after all.
| Quote: |
They want the profession off limits to engineers in
other countries so that employment among its members can increase to a
reasonable level.
regards
-kamal
So you admit that employment among IEEE members is below a
reasonable level. I wish my professional societies were more
activist in improving employment levels for me.
It is below a reasonable level -and will remain so. I have no interest
in perpetuating unemployment in the US, and do not like the idea of
working on H1b/L1 visa. I mean -you can keep the country to yourself
and I have no interest in spoiling the party. The problem comes when
someone in the US passesa directive that some occupation should be off
limits to people in (India. If you want to maintain a leadership -you
should go about improving skills or telling govt to improve investment
climate in YOUR country.
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That would require less tax cuts for rich people, so it won't
happen. Many of us have given up spitting into that wind.
| Quote: | That aside -IEEE USA has a dismal future in
legislating the careers of people outside US govt jurisdication.
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Then it will be wasting its time. I'd never even heard of the
group before today.
| Quote: | Its
just not your country for you to leguislate.
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I'm not in Congress, so I don't legislate anything anyway. :-)
Cheers,
Russell |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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On 8/26/05 6:25 AM, in article
1125062746.836233.299770@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "rick++"
<rick303@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The IEEE is finally speaking the truth. For decades, they have be parroting
the dire NSF warnings about shortage of scientists.
You are unfair. They've always been concerned about high
unemployment among over-40 engineers.
You must be a youngster. |
Bill |
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Straydog
science forum beginner
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, salmonegg@sbcglobal.net wrote:
| Quote: | On 8/25/05 7:02 PM, in article 878xyptrle.fsf@kafka.homenet,
"rambam@bigpond.net.au" <rambam@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"In an 18 August 2005 letter to the editor of "The Washington Post,"
IEEE-USA President Gerard A. Alphonse criticized a headline in the same
day's "Post" column, "Behind the Shortfall of U.S. Scientists." According
to Dr. Alphonse, "Just because China, India and other nations are
graduating large and increasing numbers of scientists and engineers does
not mean that there is a shortage of science and engineering professionals
in the United States."
The IEEE-USA leader added: "For a true picture, look at the rising
unemployment for U.S. scientists and engineers in recent years and the
percentage of individuals trained in science and engineering who are
working in other fields." He concluded: "Increasingly, we see compensation
that is lagging behind other employment categories, job insecurity, rapid
obsolescence due to technological change, and the looming threat of
offshoring." "
The IEEE is finally speaking the truth. For decades, they have be parroting
the dire NSF warnings about shortage of scientists.
My criterion for shortage is when you boss asks you if you need any clerical
help so that you can spend more of your time at your real work. I cannot
remember that ever happening.
Bill
|
My criterion for shortage is when there is a REAL job opening, with a REAL
announcment of an opening in many places of advertising, and they REALLY
want to hire someone, and there are ZERO job applicants. Then, you can say
there is a shortage. |
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Straydog
science forum beginner
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, rick++ wrote:
| Quote: | The IEEE is finally speaking the truth. For decades, they have be parroting
the dire NSF warnings about shortage of scientists.
You are unfair. They've always been concerned about high
unemployment among over-40 engineers.
|
I'd like to know where you get the idea that they have always been
concerned about high unemployment among over-40 engineers. I've certainly
seen very little talk about this in all of the periodicals I've been
scanning for decades. |
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Straydog
science forum beginner
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
| Quote: |
rambam@bigpond.net.au wrote:
http://interface2037.com/cms/html/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7
"In an 18 August 2005 letter to the editor of "The Washington Post,"
IEEE-USA President Gerard A. Alphonse criticized a headline in the same
day's "Post" column, "Behind the Shortfall of U.S. Scientists." According
to Dr. Alphonse, "Just because China, India and other nations are
graduating large and increasing numbers of scientists and engineers does
not mean that there is a shortage of science and engineering professionals
in the United States."
True.
The IEEE-USA leader added: "For a true picture, look at the rising
unemployment for U.S. scientists and engineers in recent years and the
percentage of individuals trained in science and engineering who are
working in other fields." He concluded: "Increasingly, we see compensation
that is lagging behind other employment categories, job insecurity, rapid
obsolescence due to technological change, and the looming threat of
offshoring." "
True. Whether or not there is really a shortage depends on demand &
supply. If industry wants manpower of a certain calibre at a certain
price in order to initiate new projects, you can call that a shortage.
If they shelve the project or send it voerseas -there will not be any
shortage as demand adjusts to supply.
By and large, IEEE USA has a racial attitude towards engineers in
other countries.
|
This is a big lie. I have been on a mailing list of mostly (laid-off)
programmers but some engineers and there has been constant talk about why
NONE of the engineering professional societies, whether US based or
international, will take a stand on the issue of replacing a person in a
job in a western country with either an import (H1b, L1, etc) or by
exporting the job to the 3rd world! And, from the responses that this
mailing list has gotten back, any discussion on this issue is tabled
(meaning its dead) by any of the higher ranking officers of those
professional societies. There may be one or two very minor, low
membership, groups that discuss this issue, but the rest prefer to ignore
it.
They want the profession off limits to engineers in
| Quote: | other countries so that employment among its members can increase to a
reasonable level.
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Not true at all.
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Straydog
science forum beginner
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:11 pm Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
| Quote: |
True. Whether or not there is really a shortage depends on demand &
supply. If industry wants manpower of a certain calibre at a certain
price in order to initiate new projects, you can call that a shortage.
If they shelve the project or send it voerseas -there will not be any
shortage as demand adjusts to supply.
By and large, IEEE USA has a racial attitude towards engineers in
other countries.
What's your evidence of a "racial" attitude? According to its
I tried locating a link on IEEE USA's page-but could not find it.
The ex-president of IEEE USA (John Steadman) made a statement to the
effect "currently offshoring is limited to maintenance and s/w
development. But we worry that when companies find that Indians can do
research too -they will find it attractive to move research to India
... and that should not be allowed to happen in order for the US to
maintain its leadership in innovation".
|
1. Even if this sentence is true, it has nothing to to with racial
attitude because it says NOTHING about promoting discrimination against
Indians (or anyone) coming to the USA for jobs.
2. The sentence does not make sense in the context of all public
statements by anyone connected with a professional or scientific society.
They ALL want immigration regardless of where people come from.
| Quote: | The closeest I found was this article:-
http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1019866,00.html
website it has "more than 365,000 members in over 150 countries,
almost 40 percent of whom are from outside the United States."
That is true of IEEE -but not of IEEE USA. That statement was on behalf
of IEEE USA and the article as on http://www.ieeeusa.org/. I may have
mentioned the article in the past on usenet.
I would think if over 140,000 members perceived the situation as
you do, the non-U.S. membership of the IEEE would rapidly drop
to ~0.
Hard to do so. Most scientific work takes place in the western
hemisphere.
|
This does not address the fact that there are a very large number of
non-US people, already, as members.
The bulk of the personnel in any standards group are white
| Quote: | -with a sprinking of non-whites.
|
Your own language, here, shows your own bias since you place everyone into
either the "white" or "non-white" category. This would insult all kinds of
white people who come from lots of places, all kinds of non-white people
who, traditionally, have at least three slang colors; red, yellow, and
black. I'd advise you to think of a better breakdown if you want to
discuss people with different countries of origin. Now, I think you might
be a racist, yourself.
| Quote: |
They want the profession off limits to engineers in
other countries so that employment among its members can increase to a
reasonable level.
regards
-kamal
So you admit that employment among IEEE members is below a
reasonable level. I wish my professional societies were more
activist in improving employment levels for me.
It is below a reasonable level -and will remain so. I have no interest
in perpetuating unemployment in the US, and do not like the idea of
working on H1b/L1 visa. I mean -you can keep the country to yourself
and I have no interest in spoiling the party. The problem comes when
someone in the US passesa directive that some occupation should be off
limits to people in India. If you want to maintain a leadership -you
should go about improving skills or telling govt to improve investment
climate in YOUR country. That aside -IEEE USA has a dismal future in
legislating the careers of people outside US govt jurisdication. Its
just not your country for you to leguislate.
regards
-kamal
Cheers,
Russell
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Joshua Halpern
science forum beginner
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:44 am Post subject:
Re: IEEE attacks scientist shortage myth.
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SNIP....
| Quote: |
It is below a reasonable level -and will remain so. I have no interest
in perpetuating unemployment in the US, and do not like the idea of
working on H1b/L1 visa. I mean -you can keep the country to yourself
and I have no interest in spoiling the party. The problem comes when
someone in the US passesa directive that some occupation should be off
limits to people in India.
|
Strawman. What is being debated is whether US firms should offshore
work to India
| Quote: | If you want to maintain a leadership -you
should go about improving skills or telling govt to improve investment
climate in YOUR country.
|
Strawman again. The ONLY reason for offshoring work from the US is wages.
| Quote: | That aside -IEEE USA has a dismal future in
legislating the careers of people outside US govt jurisdication. Its
just not your country for you to leguislate.
|
Tell that to the Iraqis. OTOH, you do recognize that tax laws in the US
could change in a way that there was no advantage to offshoring work.
josh halpern
| Quote: |
regards
-kamal
Cheers,
Russell
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject:
Re: cheaply-available chemicals as byproducts?
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onehappymadman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | I'm trying to compile a list of cheaply available chemicals and other
products which are typically byproducts of other processes.
Please add to the list. And if any item on the list is in error, let
me know.
CaSO4 (from triple superphosphate manufacture)
CaCl2 (from Solvay process)
feathers (from poultry slaughterhouses) - I read somewhere (Chemical
and Engineering News?) that a chemist who developed a plastic based on
proteins was offered several million pounds of feathers for free... he
declined
CO2 (from beer/wine fermentation) (is this cheaply available???)
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Perhaps the Chemical Engineers would have some data to add? |
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steve@nospam.com
science forum beginner
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject:
Re: some questions about dynamic simulation with Hysys
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Raheleh,
The reason that you would have reverse flow is due to either
(1) the pressure gradients within the system (generally, flow must occur
from streams of high pressure to streams of low pressure), or
(2) the specification of a flow boundary in the model that requires a
negative flow through the feed stream.
I would suggest you reconsider the boundaries you have set in the model, and
think about why (physically) your feed stream would be "pushed" back out of
the model.
Also, something that "one_speed" said rings true - namely the reverse flow
messing with your feed compositions. Check that you have set the "feed
block" (go to the dynamic tab, and hit the "Feed Block" button to see the
properties of the... er... let's call it the infinite feed tank that HYSYS
is drawing from to supply your column.) to the correct composition and
temperature. Once this is set, I think that reverse flow won't be able to
"reset" your feed conditions - so when you resolve the reverse flow, you
should be able to get your desired feed stream conditions again.
Perhaps you could try setting a flow specification/boundary on the stream
entering your column, and set pressure specs/boundaries on the tops and
bottoms of your column - that's how I would do a stand-alone model for the
"sake" of building a column model.
Good luck! |
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steve@nospam.com
science forum beginner
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:08 pm Post subject:
Re: How write code in HYSYS?
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You need to look into writing "extensions" for HYSYS.
HYSYS unit operations have many aspects, such as initialisation,
pressure-flow solving and user-interfacing. You need to make sure that you
address each of these appropriately. You will need more reference resources
than I can write about here, so I shan't even try to do that. Instead, let
me direct you to the HYSYS support website, at
http://support.aspentech.com/
This contains a few documents and examples which will help you with your
project.
Cheers,
- Steve. |
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