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Power sub station and me
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Justin
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

Mirth
About 300 refereed papers are published every year on interactions
between EM fields and biological material. A summary of 810 scientific
and medical papers published in 2003 and 2004 is available on:
www.iee.org/Policy/Areas/BioEffects/POSTAT02final.pdf
Alan

Mirth wrote:
Quote:

Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80 metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This is in a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know this is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working from home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in the middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started getting an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were fine, no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread to the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck. Being a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the doctor. He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I am taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally quite fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before and I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly (probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time. Obviously this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last 14 days I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so terribly ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.
Back to top
John C
science forum beginner


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

http://www.emfs.info/default.asp

"operator jay" <none@none.none> wrote in message
news:hxwge.2813$fF6.31083@news1.mts.net...
Quote:

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115780367.417314.286160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a start
I guess.

Crossposting to alt.engineering.electrical. Your entire original message
is
included below.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in.

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the problems?

The hum is audio noise and not an electric, magnetic, or electromagnetic
field (EMF).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Power sub station and me


Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80 metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This is in a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know this is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working from home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in the middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started getting an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were fine, no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread to the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck. Being a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the doctor. He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I am taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally quite fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before and I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly (probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time. Obviously this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last 14 days I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so terribly ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.


Back to top
Don Kelly
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d6a52e$i3d$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Quote:
Do you confuse corona with insulator leak current?Insulator leak current
appears even at 15 kV, the insulators of the substation just around the
corner that feeds my neighborhood even explode after a long, dusty summer
and especially in the first rains.Corona has nothing to do with insulators
or the uniformity of the electric field, it has to do with the strength of
the electric field, in voltages of 220 kV and above, around the conductor,
and well away of the insulator.The uniformity of the electric field plays
a
role in medium voltage (10 to 25 kV) underground cables, where every live
conductor has a shield, or the insulation will break down.
-------------

I know the difference between corona and leakage. Corona can occur on
insulator strings or surfaces where parts are conductive and parts are
clean. As for uniformity of the field, my comments stand (do you think the
surface field across an insulator or insulator string , is uniform? ).
Conditions that, in a uniform field would lead to breakdown, can and will
produce corona in a non-uniform field. Corona IS a factor dependent on the
non-uniformity of the field as well as its strength. (i.e. Ionization
starts in a high field region and propagates but further out the field
intensity is too low to support ionization so one gets Trichel pulses,
streamers etc . In a uniform field this would not happen but breakdown would
occur as the ionization would extend throughout the gap. Strength and
uniformity of the field are both factors. Gallager & Pearmain "High
Voltage-measurement, testing and design, is one reference, Peek is a
classical reference and there are references in the "EPRI 345KV and above"
book.
Note the following:(p50 gallager et al)
"Where there are points, sharp edges, surface roughness or curvature of
small raddius, the stress on the gas can be enhanced by 10 times with
respect to the average stress" (attributed to Lewis 1955, "High field
electron emission from irregular cathode surfaces" J. Appl, Physics 26,
1405-1410 )
Nicks on the surface of a conductor are corona sources. This is well known.
On low voltage lines the tips of the wires that are used to tie the
conductor to the insulators can cause corona- again well known.
In cables, internal corona can occur because of void formation due to
thermal expansion and contraction and shields will not prevent this -also
well known.(Note that high voltage cables are pressurised, in part to avoid
this).

.. Nor will the lack of shields necessarily lead to breakdown-This depends on
other factors as well.
(Gallager, et al p189, 190) dealing with unshielded and shielded polyphase
cables, gives the reason for the use of shields as well as the void problem,
independent of shields, as mentioned above.

As to the insulator failures- Dust (particular in seacoast regions) + rain -
you said it. . Corona may or may not be present .
Insulator explosions seem to indicate that the insulators may have had some
damage -even hairline cracks - such that in the dry times the insulation was
fine but add moisture and bang-up she goes. A sound insulator should flash
over on the surface (non-destructive) before breakthrough failure
(destructive). Unsound -and it's a gamble. I would suggest that climate and
location have a strong effect on this.

Also note devices which make use of corona such as precipitators operating
in the region of 50KV and there have been domestic electrostatic filters,
speakers, and ozonators which use corona and operate at well below this
level.
--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer


Quote:
--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ο "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:85She.1363218$6l.341714@pd7tw2no...
Why do you think that lines below 150KV don't have corona discharge?
Sometimes they are worse than higher voltage lines because corona is not
taken into account in their design and construction. One of the noisiest
lines (at least for RF from corona)that I have known was a 66KV line
Since
I was in a car, I can't comment on audio noise for this line. Corona
"pinwheels" work quite nicely at 10KV DC.

It's a matter of field intensity and non-uniformity of the field rather
than
absolute voltage level. What would lead to breakdown in a uniform field
leads to corona in a non-uniform field. The corona discharge from lines
can
be due to many factors and designof HV lines holds fair weather corona
to
a
low level. Discharges during snow storms can have little hum component
but
a
great deal of high frequency hiss and sputter (this may not be noticed
in
rain as the rain noise may drown it out-snow is quieter). It is true
that
there is a second harmonic hum but the most noticable noise is the broad
spectrum , quasi-white noise which occurs.

If your 400KV line has appreciable corona noise under fair weather
conditions, then it is poorly designed, poorly built, conductors dragged
in
the sand during construction - or the insulators were pretty dirty.
Might
I
suggest that the "hum" that you heard might not be corona related?

Of course the highest voltage substation that I have been in was only
765KV
(during a snow storm) and the highest that I have personally played with
in
a lab was about 300KV to ground and there was no problem in getting
audible
and visible corona below 150KV.

Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d6524h$cgm$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Of course I have, in Kozani where I studied, but it's been more than 8
years.The 400 kV lines were passing just outside the town, and the
hum-like
noise was annoying.Please note, that voltages equal or below 150 kV
don't
make corona discharge.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ο "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:pBehe.1344077$8l.399901@pd7tw1no...
"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d60dr0$7nd$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Probably the hum is corona discharge, thus the very strong
electric
field
around the conductor of HV lines (V~400 kV) ionizes air.Did you
consider
going to the psychiatrist?My aunt, mentally a very healthy person,
and
with
a good health, generally, suffered from terrible headaches
(migraines)
all
her life, and no doctor found anything.Now she takes
antidepressant,
and
the
headaches have stopped.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
------------------
Have you actually heard corona discharge? It is quite different
from
the
normal hum of transformers in that there is a larger high frequency
non-harmonic component. There is also no indication that the voltage
level
(it can be well below 400KV) is such that appreciable corona is
present
or
that there is any weather dependence which would be the case with
corona.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Ο "operator jay" <none@none.none> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:hxwge.2813$fF6.31083@news1.mts.net...

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115780367.417314.286160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's
a
start
I guess.

Crossposting to alt.engineering.electrical. Your entire
original
message
is
included below.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but
the
very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum
from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in.

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and
measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

The hum is audio noise and not an electric, magnetic, or
electromagnetic
field (EMF).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Power sub station and me


Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's
a

start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80
metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen
massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but
the
very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum
from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This
is
in
a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have
discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know
this
is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working
from
home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in
the
middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started
getting
an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it
was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were
fine,
no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread
to
the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck.
Being
a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress
related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the
doctor.
He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back
ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I
am
taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep
the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally
quite
fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before
and
I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly
(probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time.
Obviously
this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started
appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this
sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last
14
days
I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into
this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and
measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people
can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus
on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so
terribly
ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.












Back to top
John C
science forum beginner


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

Can you confirm where you are and what the ss name is please

it will be on the gate or door

John C

( leccy board engineer)

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115908098.370978.89390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Andrew - I have been an IT professional for 14 years now. I know how to
set my desk up but thanks for the info :)

Anyway thanks for the posts guys but the TMJ one is almost certainly
correct. I blame my new dentist and the ear plugs going in every night.
Still shouldn't be allowed to make that damn noise at night. It's
louder than a van running outside the window.
Back to top
Dimitrios Tzortzakakis
science forum beginner


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

Do you confuse corona with insulator leak current?Insulator leak current
appears even at 15 kV, the insulators of the substation just around the
corner that feeds my neighborhood even explode after a long, dusty summer
and especially in the first rains.Corona has nothing to do with insulators
or the uniformity of the electric field, it has to do with the strength of
the electric field, in voltages of 220 kV and above, around the conductor,
and well away of the insulator.The uniformity of the electric field plays a
role in medium voltage (10 to 25 kV) underground cables, where every live
conductor has a shield, or the insulation will break down.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ο "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:85She.1363218$6l.341714@pd7tw2no...
Quote:
Why do you think that lines below 150KV don't have corona discharge?
Sometimes they are worse than higher voltage lines because corona is not
taken into account in their design and construction. One of the noisiest
lines (at least for RF from corona)that I have known was a 66KV line
Since
I was in a car, I can't comment on audio noise for this line. Corona
"pinwheels" work quite nicely at 10KV DC.

It's a matter of field intensity and non-uniformity of the field rather
than
absolute voltage level. What would lead to breakdown in a uniform field
leads to corona in a non-uniform field. The corona discharge from lines
can
be due to many factors and designof HV lines holds fair weather corona to
a
low level. Discharges during snow storms can have little hum component but
a
great deal of high frequency hiss and sputter (this may not be noticed in
rain as the rain noise may drown it out-snow is quieter). It is true that
there is a second harmonic hum but the most noticable noise is the broad
spectrum , quasi-white noise which occurs.

If your 400KV line has appreciable corona noise under fair weather
conditions, then it is poorly designed, poorly built, conductors dragged
in
the sand during construction - or the insulators were pretty dirty. Might
I
suggest that the "hum" that you heard might not be corona related?

Of course the highest voltage substation that I have been in was only
765KV
(during a snow storm) and the highest that I have personally played with
in
a lab was about 300KV to ground and there was no problem in getting
audible
and visible corona below 150KV.

Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d6524h$cgm$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Of course I have, in Kozani where I studied, but it's been more than 8
years.The 400 kV lines were passing just outside the town, and the
hum-like
noise was annoying.Please note, that voltages equal or below 150 kV
don't
make corona discharge.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ο "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:pBehe.1344077$8l.399901@pd7tw1no...
"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d60dr0$7nd$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Probably the hum is corona discharge, thus the very strong electric
field
around the conductor of HV lines (V~400 kV) ionizes air.Did you
consider
going to the psychiatrist?My aunt, mentally a very healthy person,
and
with
a good health, generally, suffered from terrible headaches
(migraines)
all
her life, and no doctor found anything.Now she takes antidepressant,
and
the
headaches have stopped.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
------------------
Have you actually heard corona discharge? It is quite different from
the
normal hum of transformers in that there is a larger high frequency
non-harmonic component. There is also no indication that the voltage
level
(it can be well below 400KV) is such that appreciable corona is
present
or
that there is any weather dependence which would be the case with
corona.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Ο "operator jay" <none@none.none> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:hxwge.2813$fF6.31083@news1.mts.net...

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115780367.417314.286160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a
start
I guess.

Crossposting to alt.engineering.electrical. Your entire original
message
is
included below.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the
very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum
from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in.

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

The hum is audio noise and not an electric, magnetic, or
electromagnetic
field (EMF).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Power sub station and me


Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a

start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80
metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen
massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the
very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum
from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This is
in
a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have
discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know this
is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working
from
home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in the
middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started
getting
an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were fine,
no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread
to
the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck.
Being
a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress
related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the
doctor.
He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back
ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I am
taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally
quite
fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before and
I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly
(probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time.
Obviously
this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started
appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this
sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last 14
days
I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people
can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so
terribly
ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.










Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

In alt.engineering.electrical Don Kelly <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote:
| <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
| news:d60anj32c92@news2.newsguy.com...
|> In alt.engineering.electrical Mirth <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote:
|>
|> | Andrew - I have been an IT professional for 14 years now. I know how to
|> | set my desk up but thanks for the info Smile
|> |
|> | Anyway thanks for the posts guys but the TMJ one is almost certainly
|> | correct. I blame my new dentist and the ear plugs going in every night.
|> | Still shouldn't be allowed to make that damn noise at night. It's
|> | louder than a van running outside the window.
|>
|> Could you take a portable audio recorder and start recording this sound,
|> starting from inside you house? Periodically talk in a normal voice to
|> describe where you are and how far in meters from the substation you are
|> as you walk in the best path to go there. Then convert to a WAV file and
|> put it online. An MP3 is OK, too, but a WAV file may be important.
| --------------------
|
| In addition beg, borrow or rent an audio db meter. There are standards and
| if you can get recorded and verified noise levels, you have some ammunition
| to use. A WAV file does not give a non-objective measure of sound level.

Actually, I wasn't looking for sound level, thought it could give some
degree of relative measure. Instead, I would check spectrum and waveform.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to top
Don Kelly
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

Why do you think that lines below 150KV don't have corona discharge?
Sometimes they are worse than higher voltage lines because corona is not
taken into account in their design and construction. One of the noisiest
lines (at least for RF from corona)that I have known was a 66KV line Since
I was in a car, I can't comment on audio noise for this line. Corona
"pinwheels" work quite nicely at 10KV DC.

It's a matter of field intensity and non-uniformity of the field rather than
absolute voltage level. What would lead to breakdown in a uniform field
leads to corona in a non-uniform field. The corona discharge from lines can
be due to many factors and designof HV lines holds fair weather corona to a
low level. Discharges during snow storms can have little hum component but a
great deal of high frequency hiss and sputter (this may not be noticed in
rain as the rain noise may drown it out-snow is quieter). It is true that
there is a second harmonic hum but the most noticable noise is the broad
spectrum , quasi-white noise which occurs.

If your 400KV line has appreciable corona noise under fair weather
conditions, then it is poorly designed, poorly built, conductors dragged in
the sand during construction - or the insulators were pretty dirty. Might I
suggest that the "hum" that you heard might not be corona related?

Of course the highest voltage substation that I have been in was only 765KV
(during a snow storm) and the highest that I have personally played with in
a lab was about 300KV to ground and there was no problem in getting audible
and visible corona below 150KV.

Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d6524h$cgm$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Quote:
Of course I have, in Kozani where I studied, but it's been more than 8
years.The 400 kV lines were passing just outside the town, and the
hum-like
noise was annoying.Please note, that voltages equal or below 150 kV don't
make corona discharge.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ο "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:pBehe.1344077$8l.399901@pd7tw1no...
"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d60dr0$7nd$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Probably the hum is corona discharge, thus the very strong electric
field
around the conductor of HV lines (V~400 kV) ionizes air.Did you
consider
going to the psychiatrist?My aunt, mentally a very healthy person, and
with
a good health, generally, suffered from terrible headaches (migraines)
all
her life, and no doctor found anything.Now she takes antidepressant,
and
the
headaches have stopped.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
------------------
Have you actually heard corona discharge? It is quite different from
the
normal hum of transformers in that there is a larger high frequency
non-harmonic component. There is also no indication that the voltage
level
(it can be well below 400KV) is such that appreciable corona is present
or
that there is any weather dependence which would be the case with
corona.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Ο "operator jay" <none@none.none> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:hxwge.2813$fF6.31083@news1.mts.net...

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115780367.417314.286160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a
start
I guess.

Crossposting to alt.engineering.electrical. Your entire original
message
is
included below.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the
very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in.

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

The hum is audio noise and not an electric, magnetic, or
electromagnetic
field (EMF).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Power sub station and me


Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a
start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80
metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen
massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the
very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This is
in
a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have
discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know this is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working from
home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in the
middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started getting
an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were fine, no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread to
the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck.
Being
a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress
related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the doctor.
He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I am
taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally quite
fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before and
I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly
(probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time. Obviously
this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started
appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last 14
days
I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so terribly
ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.








Back to top
John C
science forum beginner


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me _ possible help Reply with quote

Please tell me where in scotland u are ....

Or the SubStation name.

I can then tell you if the Local electrical company will examine your noise
complaint or indeed the EMF levels.

I have witnessed this several times and cured the noise by mounting the Tx
on 3" of rubber matting.

let me know here ASAP.

PS

Sub station name is on a plate on the gate.
"
Back to top
Dimitrios Tzortzakakis
science forum beginner


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

Of course I have, in Kozani where I studied, but it's been more than 8
years.The 400 kV lines were passing just outside the town, and the hum-like
noise was annoying.Please note, that voltages equal or below 150 kV don't
make corona discharge.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ο "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:pBehe.1344077$8l.399901@pd7tw1no...
Quote:
"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d60dr0$7nd$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Probably the hum is corona discharge, thus the very strong electric
field
around the conductor of HV lines (V~400 kV) ionizes air.Did you consider
going to the psychiatrist?My aunt, mentally a very healthy person, and
with
a good health, generally, suffered from terrible headaches (migraines)
all
her life, and no doctor found anything.Now she takes antidepressant, and
the
headaches have stopped.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
------------------
Have you actually heard corona discharge? It is quite different from the
normal hum of transformers in that there is a larger high frequency
non-harmonic component. There is also no indication that the voltage level
(it can be well below 400KV) is such that appreciable corona is present or
that there is any weather dependence which would be the case with corona.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Ο "operator jay" <none@none.none> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:hxwge.2813$fF6.31083@news1.mts.net...

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115780367.417314.286160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a
start
I guess.

Crossposting to alt.engineering.electrical. Your entire original
message
is
included below.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in.

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

The hum is audio noise and not an electric, magnetic, or
electromagnetic
field (EMF).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Power sub station and me


Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a
start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80 metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen
massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from
this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This is in
a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have
discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know this is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working from
home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in the
middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started getting an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were fine, no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread to
the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck. Being
a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the doctor. He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I am
taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally quite
fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before and I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly (probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time. Obviously
this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started
appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last 14
days
I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure
these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the
problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so terribly
ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.






Back to top
FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

"Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Llehe.1343886$8l.539876@pd7tw1no...
| <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
| news:d60anj32c92@news2.newsguy.com...
| > In alt.engineering.electrical Mirth <contactmirth@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| >
| > | Andrew - I have been an IT professional for 14 years now. I know
how to
| > | set my desk up but thanks for the info Smile
| > |
| > | Anyway thanks for the posts guys but the TMJ one is almost
certainly
| > | correct. I blame my new dentist and the ear plugs going in every
night.
| > | Still shouldn't be allowed to make that damn noise at night. It's
| > | louder than a van running outside the window.
| >
| > Could you take a portable audio recorder and start recording this
sound,
| > starting from inside you house? Periodically talk in a normal voice
to
| > describe where you are and how far in meters from the substation you
are
| > as you walk in the best path to go there. Then convert to a WAV
file and
| > put it online. An MP3 is OK, too, but a WAV file may be important.
| --------------------
|
| In addition beg, borrow or rent an audio db meter. There are
standards and
| if you can get recorded and verified noise levels, you have some
ammunition
| to use. A WAV file does not give a non-objective measure of sound
level.

Yep. Ya gotta have a meter so you can try to calibrate the WAV file
anywise.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Back to top
FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

"Mark Fergerson" <nunya@biz.ness> wrote in message
news:8Oche.32297$fI.27151@fed1read05...
| FrediFizzx wrote:
| > "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:1115801249.620602.173480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| > | Thanks, Mark. It's way more than gritting my teeth I think. TMJ is
| > | almost certianly what it is but i still believe that the noise
from
| > | this sub station may well be causing it in a way. It may not be
the
| > EMF
| > | but having to sleep with earplugs in every night cant be good for
the
| > | jaw.
| > |
| > | Thanks for the pointer. I'm sure the information will help.
| >
| > Mark hit it right on the head. You have TMJ. I know because I have
had
| > it for over 35 years now.
|
| 35 years? Yow! Why hasn't it been fixed? Mine was due to plain
| vanilla "wisdom" teeth, but a buddy of mine had a worse case that
| required some fairly fancy surgery, and it worked out fine.

Apparently my particular flavor is not easily fixed. At least that is
what the last doctor a few years ago told me. And it is only a minor
annoyance now-a-days. Only gets bad when I have to talk alot. So I
just shut up and type away. Wink But now my left hand is messed up from
typing. Go figure.

| Uh, I may or may not have nailed the pain thing, but I was
| wondering if the OP has checked for a feral beehive built into his
| house walls. That's been found to be the cause of more than one case
| of "mysterious hum".

Hmm... never heard about that one. Well, the real source shouldn't be
hard to track down. The "noise" probably has sub-harmonics that might
be messing with him if loud enough.

FrediFizzx
Back to top
Don Kelly
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

"Dimitrios Tzortzakakis" <use@address.below> wrote in message
news:d60dr0$7nd$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Quote:
Probably the hum is corona discharge, thus the very strong electric field
around the conductor of HV lines (V~400 kV) ionizes air.Did you consider
going to the psychiatrist?My aunt, mentally a very healthy person, and
with
a good health, generally, suffered from terrible headaches (migraines) all
her life, and no doctor found anything.Now she takes antidepressant, and
the
headaches have stopped.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
------------------

Have you actually heard corona discharge? It is quite different from the
normal hum of transformers in that there is a larger high frequency
non-harmonic component. There is also no indication that the voltage level
(it can be well below 400KV) is such that appreciable corona is present or
that there is any weather dependence which would be the case with corona.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Quote:
Ο "operator jay" <none@none.none> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:hxwge.2813$fF6.31083@news1.mts.net...

"Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115780367.417314.286160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a start
I guess.

Crossposting to alt.engineering.electrical. Your entire original
message
is
included below.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in.

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the problems?

The hum is audio noise and not an electric, magnetic, or electromagnetic
field (EMF).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mirth" <contactmirth@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Power sub station and me


Hi all,

Not quite sure if this is the best place to post this but it's a start
I guess.

3 months ago I moved in to a new house, I live in Scotland,
incidentally, the house itself is only 2 years old. About 80 metres
away there is a huge electrical sub station with about a dozen massive
cables running out of it running parallel to my house.

I didn't notice at first because it was through the day but the very
first night I lived there I discovered that at night the hum from this
substation was so loud I had to sleep with ear plugs in. This is in a
modern house with double glazing.

This was ok and I eventually got used to it. However I have discovered
that this hum is the same night and day. The reason I know this is
because I have recently, about 18 days ago, started working from
home.
I can hear this hum above all other background noise even in the
middle
of the day.

Now to my point. 5 days after working from home I started getting an
ache in my Jaw and around my temple. I initially thought it was
toothache so I went to the dentist. He said my teeth were fine, no
problems. Unfortunately the pain kept getting worse and spread to the
back of my head, the back of my eyes and the base of my neck. Being a
computer programmer my next thought was some kind of stress related
issue or perhaps an RSI issue from work. So I went to the doctor. He
took blood tests and blood pressure and the results came back ok.
Nothing major but my blood pressure was slightly raised.

The problem however got worse. I'm now in a situation where I am
taking
the max amount of pain killers allowed everyday just to keep the
incredible headache pain to a bearable level. I am generally quite fit
and have never suffered migraines or anything similar before and I'm
now getting to the stage where my stomach hurts constantly (probably
due to the pain killers) and I'm awake most of the time. Obviously
this
isn't good.

It just seems rather coincidental that these things started appearing
when I started to spend most of my time in the house near this sub
station. The only full day I spent away from here in the last 14 days
I
don't actually recall having any headache.

So I guess my questions are...

1) Is there any proper scientific research I can read into this?

2) Is there anyone in the UK/Scotland who will come and measure these
EMF fields for me to find out if they are indeed causing the problems?

3)Is there any other information readily available that people can
point me to as I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus on
anything thse days?

I'm really at a loss as to why suddenly I should feel so terribly ill
and any help is appreciated. Thanks for listening.




Back to top
Don Kelly
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:tCdhe.210937$cg1.129488@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Quote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:42840BD8.B9A0F73F@Hovnanian.com...
Mirth wrote:

Andrew - I have been an IT professional for 14 years now. I know how to
set my desk up but thanks for the info :)

Anyway thanks for the posts guys but the TMJ one is almost certainly
correct. I blame my new dentist and the ear plugs going in every night.
Still shouldn't be allowed to make that damn noise at night. It's
louder than a van running outside the window.

Hmm (no pun intended). This might be an excellent application for active
noise cancellation. The source has a constant amplitude, frequency and
harmonic content. Its a relatively low frequency, 50 Hz and a few
harmonics and you really only need to cancel it at a fixed position.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.

Actually it is full of harmonics due to the vibrating metal parts and even
the harmonics in the current waveform itself. Play a pure 50 Hz tone
through
a hi-fi speaker system and it has a clean deep bass sound, not a ringing
transformer hum.
John
------------

Still active cancellation works- it has been used.- It cancels harmonics as
well as the fundamental--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
Back to top
Don Kelly
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:d60anj32c92@news2.newsguy.com...
Quote:
In alt.engineering.electrical Mirth <contactmirth@hotmail.com> wrote:

| Andrew - I have been an IT professional for 14 years now. I know how to
| set my desk up but thanks for the info Smile
|
| Anyway thanks for the posts guys but the TMJ one is almost certainly
| correct. I blame my new dentist and the ear plugs going in every night.
| Still shouldn't be allowed to make that damn noise at night. It's
| louder than a van running outside the window.

Could you take a portable audio recorder and start recording this sound,
starting from inside you house? Periodically talk in a normal voice to
describe where you are and how far in meters from the substation you are
as you walk in the best path to go there. Then convert to a WAV file and
put it online. An MP3 is OK, too, but a WAV file may be important.
--------------------


In addition beg, borrow or rent an audio db meter. There are standards and
if you can get recorded and verified noise levels, you have some ammunition
to use. A WAV file does not give a non-objective measure of sound level.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Quote:

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/
http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/
http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Back to top
JohnR66
science forum beginner


Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: Power sub station and me Reply with quote

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:42840BD8.B9A0F73F@Hovnanian.com...
Quote:
Mirth wrote:

Andrew - I have been an IT professional for 14 years now. I know how to
set my desk up but thanks for the info :)

Anyway thanks for the posts guys but the TMJ one is almost certainly
correct. I blame my new dentist and the ear plugs going in every night.
Still shouldn't be allowed to make that damn noise at night. It's
louder than a van running outside the window.

Hmm (no pun intended). This might be an excellent application for active
noise cancellation. The source has a constant amplitude, frequency and
harmonic content. Its a relatively low frequency, 50 Hz and a few
harmonics and you really only need to cancel it at a fixed position.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.

Actually it is full of harmonics due to the vibrating metal parts and even
the harmonics in the current waveform itself. Play a pure 50 Hz tone through
a hi-fi speaker system and it has a clean deep bass sound, not a ringing
transformer hum.
John
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