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Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja)
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David Tombe
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Inertial Mass Reply with quote

It is much more likely that inertial mass is simply a measure of the amount of matter in a body, and that it becomes relevent in determining acceleration through these two mechanisms,

(1) If an external force acts differently on the positive and the negative particles within a body, it will lead to a shared effect. This would mean that the charge to mass ratio would be the determing factor for the resultant acceleration under the action of a uniformly applied external force. All bodies in a gravitational field, that have the same charge to mass ratio, would accelerate at the same rate, as per Galileo's famous experiment at the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

(2) If an external force acts on only one part of a body, then the internal electrostatic forces will share the effect amongst themselves. In this case, the inertial mass would be a determining factor for the resultant acceleration. An example would be a rope pulling a trolley.

In this web link at section IV, you can view a derivation of inertial mass based on the principle that it is a cumulative effect dependent on the amount of matter in a body.

http://www.wbabin.net/science/tombe10.pdf

Yours sincerely, David Tombe
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Too Many Kooks Spoil the1
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

I dug some notes out of my ancient and venerable archive. The Feynman
Lectures, vol. 2, chapter 28 (no pagination) gives the stuff about the
electron shell's self-induced internal reaction force(s) due to its own
field.

Pais's scientific biography of Einstein, Subtle Is The Lord, p.153 seq,
has an exposition of the pre-quantum ether-type stuff -- in the
section "Electromagnetic Mass: the First Century".
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John Sefton
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

FrediFizzx wrote:
Quote:
"Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
message news:1114425865.640278.164910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
| attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
| electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
| mass consists.
|
| 1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?) pointed out that, if an electron
(etc)
| consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
| the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
| force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
| its bootstraps. If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
| 10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
| this reaction force.
|
| 2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
| force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
| ether soup.

Maybe not a bad start.

| 3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
| quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
| mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
| quantum vacuum or something;

Higgs-like field; probably yes. Higgs particle; probably no. Our
research might indicate that the "Higgs" is a quite complex composite of
undiscovered "less than virtual" fermion pairs. A modified Dirac-like
Sea.

| 3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
| idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

The EM ZPF doesn't have enough of what it takes. Bound quantum "vacuum"
fermionic charge does have enough of what it takes.

| Idea (1) doesn't explain why one particular set of frames should
| be singled out as the intertal frames, but the later ones do,
referring
| them in general to the "charged soup" of space.

See eq. (33) at the following link for a heuristic of how bound dual
space-time charge = +,- sqrt(hbar*c) can produce the mass of an
electron. Now we think that sqrt(hbar*c) involves more than just EM so
the mass of an electron is probably more than just electromagnetic. But
the main contribution is most likely electroweak in nature with some
very slight mixing of "sea" quark color charge.

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

FrediFizzx

Electrons are made from the next energy frequency down,

i.e. much higher frequency than protons by many, many orders
of magnitude.
It is like intense spin turns the inside of the
proton out; the space-stuff is separated and set
against itself in opposition, and so becomes much
more dilute and expansive. This is the electron- extremely evanescent
because it's not of our world- it is much finer stuff
than that dictated by Planck scale, as are protons and
emr.
John
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FrediFizzx
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

"Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
message news:1114425865.640278.164910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
| attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
| electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
| mass consists.
|
| 1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?) pointed out that, if an electron
(etc)
| consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
| the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
| force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
| its bootstraps. If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
| 10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
| this reaction force.
|
| 2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
| force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
| ether soup.

Maybe not a bad start.

| 3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
| quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
| mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
| quantum vacuum or something;

Higgs-like field; probably yes. Higgs particle; probably no. Our
research might indicate that the "Higgs" is a quite complex composite of
undiscovered "less than virtual" fermion pairs. A modified Dirac-like
Sea.

| 3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
| idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

The EM ZPF doesn't have enough of what it takes. Bound quantum "vacuum"
fermionic charge does have enough of what it takes.

| Idea (1) doesn't explain why one particular set of frames should
| be singled out as the intertal frames, but the later ones do,
referring
| them in general to the "charged soup" of space.

See eq. (33) at the following link for a heuristic of how bound dual
space-time charge = +,- sqrt(hbar*c) can produce the mass of an
electron. Now we think that sqrt(hbar*c) involves more than just EM so
the mass of an electron is probably more than just electromagnetic. But
the main contribution is most likely electroweak in nature with some
very slight mixing of "sea" quark color charge.

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

FrediFizzx
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David Rutherford
science forum beginner


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel wrote:
Quote:
Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
mass consists.

1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?) pointed out that, if an electron (etc)
consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
its bootstraps. If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
this reaction force.

2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
ether soup.

3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
quantum vacuum or something;

3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

4) http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/elecmass.pdf

--
Dave Rutherford
"New Transformation Equations and the Electric Field Four-vector"
http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/newtransform.pdf

Applications:
"4/3 Problem Resolution"
http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/elecmass.pdf
"Action-reaction Paradox Resolution"
http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/actreact.pdf
"Energy Density Correction"
http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/enerdens.pdf
"Proposed Quantum Mechanical Connection"
http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/quantum.pdf
"Biot-Savart's Companion"
http://www.softcom.net/users/der555/biotcomp.pdf
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Bill Hobba
science forum Guru


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2138

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

"Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
message news:1114425865.640278.164910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
mass consists.

1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?) pointed out that, if an electron (etc)
consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
its bootstraps. If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
this reaction force.

That model has well known problems - eg - what holds it together - see the
Feynman lectures.

Quote:

2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
ether soup.

3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
quantum vacuum or something;

3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

Idea (1) doesn't explain why one particular set of frames should
be singled out as the intertal frames,

An inertial frame, as defined by Landau, is one that is homogeneous in space
and time and isotropic in space. Science would be a pretty pointless
endeavor if they did not exist - at least in principle.

Bill

but the later ones do, referring
Quote:
them in general to the "charged soup" of space.
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Uncle Al
science forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1226

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel wrote:
Quote:

Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
mass consists.

Stochastic electrodynamics (SED) from zero point fluctuations of the
quantum vacuum is stillborn until it can evolve the Schroedinger
equation for a hydrogen atom. Claimed Unruh radiation from moving
quarks as a source for inertia in SED was discounted by Unruh.

[snip]


--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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Harry
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

"Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
message news:1114425865.640278.164910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
mass consists.

We now live in the 21st century...

Quote:
1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?)

I think so, Thomson 1881.

Quote:
pointed out that, if an electron (etc)
consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
its bootstraps.

Yeah, that's self induction alright. It was based on Maxwell's ether model.

Quote:
If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
this reaction force.

2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
ether soup.

Right if instead of "charged ether soup" you write "stationary ether". It
was truly relativistic: he assumed that, for the Lorentz-Fitzgerald
contraction to hold, this electromagnetic dynamic mass increase should also
be valid for neutral matter (Lorentz 1904).

Quote:
3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
quantum vacuum or something;

3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

Idea (1) doesn't explain why one particular set of frames should
be singled out as the intertal frames, but the later ones do, referring
them in general to the "charged soup" of space.

Idea (1) was based on a single frame which determines the set of "inertial
frames", similar to Newton's Space.
Of course, in 1881 it was not clear that the PoR also holds for EM
phenomena.

Cheers,
Harald
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Lady Chatterly
science forum addict


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

In article <1114425865.640278.164910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
Too Many Kooks Spoil the Brothel <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:

1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?) pointed out that, if an electron (etc)
consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
its bootstraps. If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
this reaction force.

A how can you point to other examples of objects which behave this
way.

Quote:
2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
ether soup.

You are a fart.

Quote:
3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
quantum vacuum or something;

At least one of the universe is a good thing is that the internet.

Quote:
3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

People of the earth.

Quote:
Idea (1) doesn't explain why one particular set of frames should
be singled out as the intertal frames, but the later ones do, referring
them in general to the "charged soup" of space.

Perhaps you would not be a good thing is that the internet.

--
Lady Chatterly

"I'm enjoying the Elizabot too. Tholen's bitten the hook hard." --
Peter J Ross
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Too Many Kooks Spoil the1
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Theories of electromagnetic mass (also with special reference to Aleksandar Vukelja) Reply with quote

Various theories have been put forward in the last century or so
attempting to explain the phenomenon of intertial mass in terms of the
electromagnetic interactions of the charged particles of which that
mass consists.

1) Someone (was it JJ Thompson?) pointed out that, if an electron (etc)
consisted of a little hollow sphere with its charge distributed around
the surface, it would -- when accelerated -- exert an e-m reaction
force on itself. In effect, it would be trying to hold itself back by
its bootstraps. If the electron turned out to have a radius of ~10 x
10^-19 m (?), then ALL of the electron's mass could be attributed to
this reaction force.

2) Someone else (??Lorentz) suggested a (quasi-relativistic?) reaction
force based on a charged particle's acceleration through a charged
ether soup.

3) A technically-similar idea has since then manifested itself, in the
quantum age, as the Higgs field (and particle), which give particles
mass by putting up resistance as particles accelerate through the
quantum vacuum or something;

3a) A more-recent variation was the zero-point field and force (ZPF)
idea put forward by Puthoff, Haisch and Rueda (sp?).

Idea (1) doesn't explain why one particular set of frames should
be singled out as the intertal frames, but the later ones do, referring
them in general to the "charged soup" of space.
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