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Forum index » Science and Technology » Physics » Acoustics
Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above
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Mark B
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

If we rebuild the banquet hall with well-isolated walls and ceiling
with double sheetrock, do we stand a prayer making the rooms above
useable? We do have room above the dropped ceiling to add a new
suspended sheet rock layer and put the dropped ceiling back in about
the same place. Walls would all have to be torn out and redone with
something like ISOMax clips. Big problem is that supply ductwork is up
high between the steel beams and we would have supply air penetrations
into the space. Might need a silencer on each supply diffuser.

Before we do alot of calculations, I thought I would see if anyone has
been through this exercise and if it worked.

Mark Bagdon
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Noral Stewart
science forum addict


Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

Much depends on just how good a result the hotel feels they need to rent the
rooms. The distinctive nature of music makes it noticeable and distracting
even at low levels. I expect it would be audible to some extent in the
rooms directly above whatever you do, though much would depend on the
available masking sound in those rooms. I would expect that it could
currently be heard at low levels even another floor up or in areas not
directly over the banquet room. If that is the case and the hotel finds
those areas acceptable, then that provides an idea of what needs to be
accomplished. If the criteria is that the music be completely inaudible,
that will be tough without good masking sound.
"Mark B" <mbagdon@novusengineering.com> wrote in message
news:1149102322.208880.292560@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

If we rebuild the banquet hall with well-isolated walls and ceiling
with double sheetrock, do we stand a prayer making the rooms above
useable? We do have room above the dropped ceiling to add a new
suspended sheet rock layer and put the dropped ceiling back in about
the same place. Walls would all have to be torn out and redone with
something like ISOMax clips. Big problem is that supply ductwork is up
high between the steel beams and we would have supply air penetrations
into the space. Might need a silencer on each supply diffuser.

Before we do alot of calculations, I thought I would see if anyone has
been through this exercise and if it worked.

Mark Bagdon
Back to top
Brian Marston
science forum beginner


Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

Things can get worse ~ bedroom over nightclub ~ 100dB(lin) at 63Hz;
105dB(Lin) at 125 to 500Hz. Must be inaudible in bedroom or else the
nightclub gets closed.

Current floor ceiling construction tongue & groove floorboards over
wooden bearers with solidly fixed double sheetrock ceiling. Ceiling
height below can not be reduced. The structural engineer wants to start
pouring concrete between the bearers immediately.

The building owner wants to be renting out his "5 star" bedrooms in
about a months time, without loosing the nightclub.

Noral Stewart wrote:
Quote:
Much depends on just how good a result the hotel feels they need to rent the
rooms. The distinctive nature of music makes it noticeable and distracting
even at low levels. I expect it would be audible to some extent in the
rooms directly above whatever you do, though much would depend on the
available masking sound in those rooms. I would expect that it could
currently be heard at low levels even another floor up or in areas not
directly over the banquet room. If that is the case and the hotel finds
those areas acceptable, then that provides an idea of what needs to be
accomplished. If the criteria is that the music be completely inaudible,
that will be tough without good masking sound.

"Mark B" <mbagdon@novusengineering.com> wrote in message
news:1149102322.208880.292560@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

If we rebuild the banquet hall with well-isolated walls and ceiling
with double sheetrock, do we stand a prayer making the rooms above
useable? We do have room above the dropped ceiling to add a new
suspended sheet rock layer and put the dropped ceiling back in about
the same place. Walls would all have to be torn out and redone with
something like ISOMax clips. Big problem is that supply ductwork is up
high between the steel beams and we would have supply air penetrations
into the space. Might need a silencer on each supply diffuser.

Before we do alot of calculations, I thought I would see if anyone has
been through this exercise and if it worked.

Mark Bagdon
Back to top
Mark B
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

Brain:

Good luck with that one. Be sure to let us know what you come up with.
We have a similar problem at an old mill building.

Mark B



Brian Marston wrote:
Quote:
Things can get worse ~ bedroom over nightclub ~ 100dB(lin) at 63Hz;
105dB(Lin) at 125 to 500Hz. Must be inaudible in bedroom or else the
nightclub gets closed.

Current floor ceiling construction tongue & groove floorboards over
wooden bearers with solidly fixed double sheetrock ceiling. Ceiling
height below can not be reduced. The structural engineer wants to start
pouring concrete between the bearers immediately.

The building owner wants to be renting out his "5 star" bedrooms in
about a months time, without loosing the nightclub.

Noral Stewart wrote:
Much depends on just how good a result the hotel feels they need to rent the
rooms. The distinctive nature of music makes it noticeable and distracting
even at low levels. I expect it would be audible to some extent in the
rooms directly above whatever you do, though much would depend on the
available masking sound in those rooms. I would expect that it could
currently be heard at low levels even another floor up or in areas not
directly over the banquet room. If that is the case and the hotel finds
those areas acceptable, then that provides an idea of what needs to be
accomplished. If the criteria is that the music be completely inaudible,
that will be tough without good masking sound.

"Mark B" <mbagdon@novusengineering.com> wrote in message
news:1149102322.208880.292560@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

If we rebuild the banquet hall with well-isolated walls and ceiling
with double sheetrock, do we stand a prayer making the rooms above
useable? We do have room above the dropped ceiling to add a new
suspended sheet rock layer and put the dropped ceiling back in about
the same place. Walls would all have to be torn out and redone with
something like ISOMax clips. Big problem is that supply ductwork is up
high between the steel beams and we would have supply air penetrations
into the space. Might need a silencer on each supply diffuser.

Before we do alot of calculations, I thought I would see if anyone has
been through this exercise and if it worked.

Mark Bagdon
Back to top
Mark B
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

Brain:

Good luck with that one. Be sure to let us know what you come up with.
We have a similar problem at an old mill building.

Mark B



Brian Marston wrote:
Quote:
Things can get worse ~ bedroom over nightclub ~ 100dB(lin) at 63Hz;
105dB(Lin) at 125 to 500Hz. Must be inaudible in bedroom or else the
nightclub gets closed.

Current floor ceiling construction tongue & groove floorboards over
wooden bearers with solidly fixed double sheetrock ceiling. Ceiling
height below can not be reduced. The structural engineer wants to start
pouring concrete between the bearers immediately.

The building owner wants to be renting out his "5 star" bedrooms in
about a months time, without loosing the nightclub.

Noral Stewart wrote:
Much depends on just how good a result the hotel feels they need to rent the
rooms. The distinctive nature of music makes it noticeable and distracting
even at low levels. I expect it would be audible to some extent in the
rooms directly above whatever you do, though much would depend on the
available masking sound in those rooms. I would expect that it could
currently be heard at low levels even another floor up or in areas not
directly over the banquet room. If that is the case and the hotel finds
those areas acceptable, then that provides an idea of what needs to be
accomplished. If the criteria is that the music be completely inaudible,
that will be tough without good masking sound.

"Mark B" <mbagdon@novusengineering.com> wrote in message
news:1149102322.208880.292560@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

If we rebuild the banquet hall with well-isolated walls and ceiling
with double sheetrock, do we stand a prayer making the rooms above
useable? We do have room above the dropped ceiling to add a new
suspended sheet rock layer and put the dropped ceiling back in about
the same place. Walls would all have to be torn out and redone with
something like ISOMax clips. Big problem is that supply ductwork is up
high between the steel beams and we would have supply air penetrations
into the space. Might need a silencer on each supply diffuser.

Before we do alot of calculations, I thought I would see if anyone has
been through this exercise and if it worked.

Mark Bagdon
Back to top
Mark B
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

Thanks Noral. Your observations are always useful. For a
non-sturctural solution, I am suggesting that they install on demand
satellite radio in the problem rooms and only rent them to guests of
the banquet hall functions - at a reduced cost.

Mark B

Noral Stewart wrote:
Quote:
Much depends on just how good a result the hotel feels they need to rent the
rooms. The distinctive nature of music makes it noticeable and distracting
even at low levels. I expect it would be audible to some extent in the
rooms directly above whatever you do, though much would depend on the
available masking sound in those rooms. I would expect that it could
currently be heard at low levels even another floor up or in areas not
directly over the banquet room. If that is the case and the hotel finds
those areas acceptable, then that provides an idea of what needs to be
accomplished. If the criteria is that the music be completely inaudible,
that will be tough without good masking sound.
"Mark B" <mbagdon@novusengineering.com> wrote in message
news:1149102322.208880.292560@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

If we rebuild the banquet hall with well-isolated walls and ceiling
with double sheetrock, do we stand a prayer making the rooms above
useable? We do have room above the dropped ceiling to add a new
suspended sheet rock layer and put the dropped ceiling back in about
the same place. Walls would all have to be torn out and redone with
something like ISOMax clips. Big problem is that supply ductwork is up
high between the steel beams and we would have supply air penetrations
into the space. Might need a silencer on each supply diffuser.

Before we do alot of calculations, I thought I would see if anyone has
been through this exercise and if it worked.

Mark Bagdon
Back to top
Angelo Campanella
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Hotel Banquet Hall with Guest Rooms Above Reply with quote

Mark B wrote:
Quote:
We have been called by a new hotel with guest rooms directly over a
banquet hall. 4" concrete floor and dropped ceiling only thing
intervening. Of course, when there is a band playing, they can't rent
the rooms. CMU construction on banquet level and metal stud
construction above. The whole wing vibrates with our sound source on.
Field measured STC is about 59 from banquet hall to rooms above. No
duct chases to worry about.

To start with, I advise buulding owners to turn down prospective leesees
that want to run a music bar.

Man can make amplifiers and speakers that will create noise loudness
that no structure can completely stop the sound from being heard in
attached rooms.

I make no guarantees if they want to proceed anyway.

The only person fit to live over a music bar is its owner-operator
(he/she will not want to sleep when the bar is open).

Angelo Campanella
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