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Bernhard Kuemel
science forum beginner

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: gyro power generator

Hi sp, sem!

Is it possible to build an electricity generator that is driven by the
relative rotation between a gyro and earths rotation with their axes
being perpendicular? Would it be hard to get enough power to overcome
friction and get some surplus power? I guess because it rotates only
once per day it would be practical to lift a weight and turn its
potential energy into electricity every now and then rather than using a
direct generator or a speed up gear.

Bernhard
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

Dear Bernhard Kuemel:

"Bernhard Kuemel" <BernharD@bksys.at> wrote in message
 Quote: Hi sp, sem! Is it possible to build an electricity generator that is driven by the relative rotation between a gyro and earths rotation with their axes being perpendicular?

Yes. But to gain energy from it, you will be altering the
rotation of the gyro. In short order, you will have the gyro's
axis parallel with Earth's rotation axis... and energy production
stops.

David A. Smith
Bernhard Kuemel
science forum beginner

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
 Quote: Dear Bernhard Kuemel: "Bernhard Kuemel" wrote in message news:449d8bd7\$0\$588\$79720d31@newsreader.inode.at... Hi sp, sem! Is it possible to build an electricity generator that is driven by the relative rotation between a gyro and earths rotation with their axes being perpendicular? Yes. But to gain energy from it, you will be altering the rotation of the gyro. In short order, you will have the gyro's axis parallel with Earth's rotation axis... and energy production stops.

I thought about mentioning that. But ... say we are at the equator. The
gyro's axis initially is vertical and is mounted in a hollow sphere. The
sphere's axis is mounted horizontally with a north-south orientation.
Now the gyro's axis will remain perpendicular to earth's axis.

Maybe there will be some change of earth's precession, but I'm not
worried about that. Hopefully it will not cause major earth quakes or
climate changes. Could we choose to either increase or decrease earths
precession?

Bernhard
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

Dear Bernhard Kuemel:

"Bernhard Kuemel" <BernharD@bksys.at> wrote in message
 Quote: N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote: Dear Bernhard Kuemel: "Bernhard Kuemel" wrote in message news:449d8bd7\$0\$588\$79720d31@newsreader.inode.at... Hi sp, sem! Is it possible to build an electricity generator that is driven by the relative rotation between a gyro and earths rotation with their axes being perpendicular? Yes. But to gain energy from it, you will be altering the rotation of the gyro. In short order, you will have the gyro's axis parallel with Earth's rotation axis... and energy production stops. I thought about mentioning that. But ... say we are at the equator. The gyro's axis initially is vertical and is mounted in a hollow sphere. The sphere's axis is mounted horizontally with a north-south orientation. Now the gyro's axis will remain perpendicular to earth's axis.

No, it will not. Not if you are going to remove energy from the
system.

 Quote: Maybe there will be some change of earth's precession, but I'm not worried about that. Hopefully it will not cause major earth quakes or climate changes. Could we choose to either increase or decrease earths precession?

Yes. Could we measure the change? Probably not.

David A. Smith
Bernhard Kuemel
science forum beginner

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
 Quote: I thought about mentioning that. But ... say we are at the equator. The gyro's axis initially is vertical and is mounted in a hollow sphere. The sphere's axis is mounted horizontally with a north-south orientation. Now the gyro's axis will remain perpendicular to earth's axis. No, it will not. Not if you are going to remove energy from the system.

But this means that earths axis will change until it is aligned with the
gyro. Certainly a long order process.

Maybe my description was unclear. I'll try again:
We are (not necessarily) at the equator. There is a hollow sphere with
bearings on the outside so it can rotate with its axis parallell to
earths axis. On the inside of the equator of the sphere there are 2
bearings that hold a gyro so it will spin perpendicular to the spheres
axis. Now there is no way the gyro can align its axis with earths
*current* axis, whether I extract energy or not.

Now I wonder what dimensions such a generator must have if it is to
deliver 10 kW power. Top priority is reliability because the intended
purpose is to support a facility that preserves humans at cryogenic
temperatures. I guess it will be unpractical because it has too heavy
and too many moving parts. Otherwise it would be an interesting option
because the facility could be buried and sealed deeply underground. Safe
from nukes or casual vandals. The currently best option IMO are solar
powered thermoelectric elements.

Bernhard
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

Dear Bernhard Kuemel:

"Bernhard Kuemel" <BernharD@bksys.at> wrote in message
 Quote: N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote: I thought about mentioning that. But ... say we are at the equator. The gyro's axis initially is vertical and is mounted in a hollow sphere. The sphere's axis is mounted horizontally with a north-south orientation. Now the gyro's axis will remain perpendicular to earth's axis. No, it will not. Not if you are going to remove energy from the system. But this means that earths axis will change until it is aligned with the gyro.

No. It means the gyro's axis will be altered to match the
Earth's. The fly will move.. not (much) the mountain.

 Quote: Certainly a long order process.

Depends on your rate of energy removal. Suffice it to say that
if it is on the order of the rate you put energy in to get the
gyro up to speed, it'll be on the same order before the gyro puts
out no more useful amount of energy.

 Quote: Maybe my description was unclear. I'll try again: We are (not necessarily) at the equator. There is a hollow sphere with bearings on the outside so it can rotate with its axis parallell to earths axis.

This cannot be entirely true, if you are going to remove energy
from the gyro.

 Quote: On the inside of the equator of the sphere there are 2 bearings that hold a gyro so it will spin perpendicular to the spheres axis. Now there is no way the gyro can align its axis with earths *current* axis, whether I extract energy or not.

Then you will get no energy out.

 Quote: Now I wonder what dimensions such a generator must have if it is to deliver 10 kW power. Top priority is reliability because the intended purpose is to support a facility that preserves humans at cryogenic temperatures. I guess it will be unpractical because it has too heavy and too many moving parts.

Use a moon. Create a tidal generator. Better still orbit Pluto
or Charon. Plenty cold there, all the time. Not too many
vandals either.

 Quote: Otherwise it would be an interesting option because the facility could be buried and sealed deeply underground. Safe from nukes or casual vandals. The currently best option IMO are solar powered thermoelectric elements.

Since these bodies are already dead, what does "safe" mean?

David A. Smith
Bernhard Kuemel
science forum beginner

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
 Quote: Maybe my description was unclear. I'll try again: We are (not necessarily) at the equator. There is a hollow sphere with bearings on the outside so it can rotate with its axis parallell to earths axis. This cannot be entirely true, if you are going to remove energy from the gyro. On the inside of the equator of the sphere there are 2 bearings that hold a gyro so it will spin perpendicular to the spheres axis. Now there is no way the gyro can align its axis with earths *current* axis, whether I extract energy or not. Then you will get no energy out.

But the gyro will resist to changing its axis and this torque can be
used to extract energy. If the axes must align then why shouldn't earths
axis change - just a tiny bit?

 Quote: Use a moon. Create a tidal generator.

How would I do that? I don't like using the tides of the sea because I
think that's to unreliable. The facility should remain operable even if
human maintainance is absent for decades or centuries.

 Quote: Better still orbit Pluto or Charon. Plenty cold there, all the time. Not too many vandals either.

Yep, that might be an option. But the bodies must be protected from
cosmic rays and asteroids which would mean heavy armor which makes the
trip quite costly. Also maintainence is rather difficult. OTOH I see the
average temperature is 50 K so there isn't really a need for
maintainence. Landing on Pluto should be feasible once we are there and
digging a hole might be possible to protect from rays and asteroids. The
density of Pluto is only 1.1 g/cm3.

But then I guess it would probably take quite long until someone came
there to revive us.

 Quote: Since these bodies are already dead, what does "safe" mean?

Cryopreserving a body shouldn't kill. It should preserve the information
that makes up the mind so it can be scanned later and emulated in a
computer or robot. So asteroids, cosmic rays, heat, vandals, whatever
must be prevented from destroying the body/brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_transfer#Serial_sectioning

Bernhard
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
science forum Guru

Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 2835

Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: gyro power generator

Dear Bernhard Kuemel:

"Bernhard Kuemel" <BernharD@bksys.at> wrote in message
 Quote: N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote: Maybe my description was unclear. I'll try again: We are (not necessarily) at the equator. There is a hollow sphere with bearings on the outside so it can rotate with its axis parallell to earths axis. This cannot be entirely true, if you are going to remove energy from the gyro. On the inside of the equator of the sphere there are 2 bearings that hold a gyro so it will spin perpendicular to the spheres axis. Now there is no way the gyro can align its axis with earths *current* axis, whether I extract energy or not. Then you will get no energy out. But the gyro will resist to changing its axis and this torque can be used to extract energy.

If you remove energy, then you alter the gyro's axis of rotation.

 Quote: If the axes must align then why shouldn't earths axis change - just a tiny bit?

A fly crashes into the Earth. Will the Earth then fall into the
Sun? The change will be to the gyro's axis of rotation, and you
won't be able to detect a change in Earth's.

 Quote: Use a moon. Create a tidal generator. How would I do that? I don't like using the tides of the sea because I think that's to unreliable. The facility should remain operable even if human maintainance is absent for decades or centuries. Better still orbit Pluto or Charon. Plenty cold there, all the time. Not too many vandals either. Yep, that might be an option. But the bodies must be protected from cosmic rays and asteroids which would mean heavy armor which makes the trip quite costly. Also maintainence is rather difficult. OTOH I see the average temperature is 50 K so there isn't really a need for maintainence. Landing on Pluto should be feasible once we are there and digging a hole might be possible to protect from rays and asteroids. The density of Pluto is only 1.1 g/cm3. But then I guess it would probably take quite long until someone came there to revive us.

Panspermia. Grind the bodies up and spray them into the heavens.
Interstellar travel.

 Quote: Since these bodies are already dead, what does "safe" mean? Cryopreserving a body shouldn't kill.

It does. Anaesthesia for more than 8 hours, yields a greater
than 50% probability that the patient will die anyway within a
year. Anaesthetised for centuries?

 Quote: It should preserve the information that makes up the mind so it can be scanned later and emulated in a computer or robot. So asteroids, cosmic rays, heat, vandals, whatever must be prevented from destroying the body/brain.

Great scifi. Don't give it any money.

David A. Smith

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