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If photons are helical, what are gravitons?
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frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

Spin-1 photons obviously differ from spin-2 gravitons.
What would the corresponding structure analogy
for a graviton be?

I heard a crazy speculation that uses two
tangled helices, but cannot find it anywhere.
Does anybody know more?
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Ben Rudiak-Gould
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 382

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

What he's talking about here are wave functions which have a Gaussian
distribution of both position and momentum, with the product of the width of
the position and momentum Gaussians equalling hbar/2. This is the best you
can do according to the uncertainty principle, which is why he calls it the
"best quantum approximation to a classical state" at the top of the page.

This has nothing to do with QED or photons or spin 1 as such. The functions
he constructs are broadly useful even outside quantum mechanics (since
there's an uncertainty principle in any wave theory). As nonrelativistic
quantum wave functions, they describe a spin-0 particle in one spatial
dimension.

-- Ben
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John Sefton
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

Spin-1 photons obviously differ from spin-2 gravitons.
What would the corresponding structure analogy
for a graviton be?

I heard a crazy speculation that uses two
tangled helices, but cannot find it anywhere.
Does anybody know more?

First, the helix represents the 'footprint'
of the structure as it moves, not the structure
itself.
The first thing Baez says is
'Classically, a particle on the line has a definite position
q and momentum p...snip'

What particle?
What is its shape?
Why does it exist?
What is it made of?
How can you solve a puzzle by building
on an unknown?
At best you'll get back to where you started- at worst
you'll be where we are now- the unknowns breed!!!
DM
BH
virtual barficals

Anyway.
Sorry....rant...

If hummingbirds can fly backward, turkeys
should be able to as well.

Scientist: "We have proven Turkeys can'y
fly backward so that takes care of birds."

Gravitons are the radiation given off by
electrons- identical to photons
except at a much smaller scale (many orders of
magnitude).

John
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

Spin-1 photons obviously differ from spin-2 gravitons.
What would the corresponding structure analogy
for a graviton be?

I heard a crazy speculation that uses two
tangled helices, but cannot find it anywhere.
Does anybody know more?

If photons are helical then someone has imbued them with
more properties than their creator allowed for.

Some mathematical description of a *graviphoton* can be
found in the papers at the bottom of this press release:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

It is tenativly linked to a mass anomaly discovered by
Tate so you might gain some insight looking at her work
referenced in this paper:

http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0602591

Sue...
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frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.
science forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:
Quote:
If photons are helical then someone has imbued them with
more properties than their creator allowed for.

Why?

Quote:
Some mathematical description of a *graviphoton* can be
found in the papers at the bottom of this press release:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

It is tenativly linked to a mass anomaly discovered by
Tate so you might gain some insight looking at her work
referenced in this paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0602591

This is clearly not research to be taken seriously...
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frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.
science forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

malibu wrote:
Quote:
First, the helix represents the 'footprint'
of the structure as it moves, not the structure
itself.
The first thing Baez says is
'Classically, a particle on the line has a definite position
q and momentum p...snip'

Ok, so what is the footprint of gravitons?


Quote:
Gravitons are the radiation given off by
electrons- identical to photons
except at a much smaller scale (many orders of
magnitude).

Sorry, this is wrong, Both photons and gravitons obey omega = k c,
so they are both the same "size". And bound electrons surely
do not radiate gravitons. Was the rant in your post (deleted here)
directed at yourself?
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:
If photons are helical then someone has imbued them with
more properties than their creator allowed for.

Why?

For the same reason that liters were invented for milk. They
needed a way to express a quanta of electromagnit energy
emitted or absorbed.

Quote:

Some mathematical description of a *graviphoton* can be
found in the papers at the bottom of this press release:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

It is tenativly linked to a mass anomaly discovered by
Tate so you might gain some insight looking at her work
referenced in this paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0602591

This is clearly not research to be taken seriously...

You can take it as you please. If I had a lot invested in
the notion that gravity is a fundamental force then I
would surely be taking it seriously.

Sue...
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frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.
science forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote:
Quote:
frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

This has nothing to do with QED or photons or spin 1 as such. The functions
he constructs are broadly useful even outside quantum mechanics (since
there's an uncertainty principle in any wave theory). As nonrelativistic
quantum wave functions, they describe a spin-0 particle in one spatial
dimension.

Baez says that he uses the helix - later on --
as a model for a coherent state of a photon.
A photon is not a spin 0 non-relativistic particle.
And helixes do not exist in one dimension.

Anyway, the question was: is there a corresponding
image for the graviton?
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frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.
science forum beginner


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

Sue... wrote:
Quote:
frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Sue... wrote:
If photons are helical then someone has imbued them with
more properties than their creator allowed for.

Why?

For the same reason that liters were invented for milk. They
needed a way to express a quanta of electromagnit energy
emitted or absorbed.

It is better to post when one is sober. Maybe you read this
again in that condition. More clearly: what was the
sense of the first sentence you posted?
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Ben Rudiak-Gould
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 382

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
Baez says that he uses the helix - later on --
as a model for a coherent state of a photon.

I haven't read the rest of the presentation, so I'm not sure what he means
by that. I imagine he later adapts this generic solution to the specific
case of a photon. As I said, it's applicable in many situations.

Quote:
A photon is not a spin 0 non-relativistic particle.
And helixes do not exist in one dimension.

The three axes of the graphs are x, Re(psi(x)), and Im(psi(x)), where

psi(x) = exp (i b x - (x - c)^2 / 2)

for various values of b and c. The helical shape comes from psi(x) rotating
in the complex plane as a function of x. The complex values of the wave
function don't point in any particular spatial direction.

Believe me, this is the wave function of a spin-0 particle. It has other
uses too, but the helical shape of those graphs isn't particle spin.

-- Ben
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John Sefton
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
malibu wrote:
First, the helix represents the 'footprint'
of the structure as it moves, not the structure
itself.
The first thing Baez says is
'Classically, a particle on the line has a definite position
q and momentum p...snip'

Ok, so what is the footprint of gravitons?


Gravitons are the radiation given off by
electrons- identical to photons
except at a much smaller scale (many orders of
magnitude).

Sorry, this is wrong, Both photons and gravitons obey omega = k c,
so they are both the same "size". And bound electrons surely
do not radiate gravitons. Was the rant in your post (deleted here)
directed at yourself?

So you subscribe to the idea that a negative
charge can move at speeds of 1/3 c within
the volume of an atom and not radiate?
John
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

Spin-1 photons obviously differ from spin-2 gravitons.
What would the corresponding structure analogy
for a graviton be?

I heard a crazy speculation that uses two
tangled helices, but cannot find it anywhere.
Does anybody know more?
--------------------------------------

BTW
if you see the photon as moving in a helical path (which is my view
as well

than the Circlon is denanded for it !!

th eCirclon is my suggestion for a basic particle that
MOVES NATYRALLY IN A CLOSED CIRCLE (UNLESS DISTURBED IN HIS WAY )

ATB
Y.Porat
-------------------------------
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Y.Porat
science forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1809

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote:
frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

This has nothing to do with QED or photons or spin 1 as such. The functions
he constructs are broadly useful even outside quantum mechanics (since
there's an uncertainty principle in any wave theory). As nonrelativistic
quantum wave functions, they describe a spin-0 particle in one spatial
dimension.

Baez says that he uses the helix - later on --
as a model for a coherent state of a photon.
A photon is not a spin 0 non-relativistic particle.
And helixes do not exist in one dimension.

Anyway, the question was: is there a corresponding
image for the graviton?

no need for the gravitin to move as a hellix

the graviton (or for me it is the circlon)
does not move as a hellix but it moves in curved lines NATURALLY!!
AND NOT BECAUSE OF 'CURVED SOACE TIME '
but becuse that is his natural movement
untill now it is a postulate !! of mine that explaines nicely and
not least ** simply **

you can se it in my site .

ATB
Y.Porat
------
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Sue...
science forum Guru


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2684

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Quote:
Sue... wrote:
frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Sue... wrote:
If photons are helical then someone has imbued them with
more properties than their creator allowed for.

Why?

For the same reason that liters were invented for milk. They
needed a way to express a quanta of electromagnit energy
emitted or absorbed.

It is better to post when one is sober. Maybe you read this
again in that condition. More clearly: what was the
sense of the first sentence you posted?

Sue...<<If photons are helical then someone has imbued them with
more properties than their creator allowed for. >>


Planck: << What becomes of the energy of a photon after
complete emission? Does it spread out in all directions with
further propagation in the sense of Huygens' wave theory,
so constantly taking up more space, in boundless progressive
attenuation? Or does it fly out like a projectile in one direction
in the sense of Newton's emanation theory? In the first case,
the quantum would no longer be in the position to concentrate
energy upon a single point in space in such a way as to release
an electron from its atomic bond, and in the second case, the
main triumph of the Maxwell theory - the continuity between the
static and the dynamic fields and, with it, the complete
understanding we have enjoyed, until now, of the fully investigated
interference phenomena - would have to be sacrificed, both
being very unhappy consequences for today's
theoreticians. >>
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1918/planck-lecture.html

See also when you are sober:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/articles/ekspong/index.html

Sue...
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Len Gaasenbeek
science forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: If photons are helical, what are gravitons? Reply with quote

<frank_k_sheldon@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1153067755.168192.216080@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
In the pages by John Baez on QED, especially
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/photon/nicest.htm#corkscrw ,
the photon is visualized as a localized helix,
a superposition of a helix and a gaussian.

Spin-1 photons obviously differ from spin-2 gravitons.
What would the corresponding structure analogy
for a graviton be?

I heard a crazy speculation that uses two
tangled helices, but cannot find it anywhere.
Does anybody know more?
..................................................................

In answer to your above question see my 'Selected Papers' which you will
find at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

In particular read my first paper titled: 'Helical Particle Waves'.
and my third paper titled: 'Foundations for Proposed Unified Field Theory'.

I will be glad to answer any questions you may have.

Enjoy, Len.
....................................................................
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