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ajiko
science forum beginner
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:26 am Post subject:
Tau of the photon leads to...
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As we all know, the Tau invariant as applied to light is always zero. This
invariant is usually described as a separation value between events. Taking
this literally leads to some amazing conclusions. First, particles with a
seperation of zero would be considered in contact with each other. This
means that interactions between particles typically associated with photon
transfers would better be described as particles rolling along each other.
Particles would be in constant contact with each other, twice at each point
in each path. Particle A would be in contact with B in B's past and B's
future. Similarly, B would be in contact with A in A's past and future.
This contact would be continuous - hence the concept of rolling along each
other.
If there are multiple possible photon interactions, that would translate
into multiple simultaneous contacts. This concept maps nicely to Feynman's
sum of all possible interactions.
QFT works by maintaining phase between particles A and B. This concept also
maps nicely in the constant contact view because, although there are no
intermediate cycles, QFT already ignores them.
This also hints at the perennial problem of quantum mechanic being a
probability result without there being anything to be statistical about. We
can imagine the interaction being a ratchet kind of phenomenon. When some
kind of particle rolling effect matches a full cycle, it clicks in some way.
It would be a very statistical thing whether A clicks with B or happens to
click with C (or D, or...)
first.
It seems very possible that the photon, a particle with no mass and a
half-life of zero, is an unnecessary artificial construct.
Ned Phipps
28 June, 2005 |
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Bilge
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:00 am Post subject:
Re: Tau of the photon leads to...
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ajiko:
| Quote: | It seems very possible that the photon, a particle with no mass and a
half-life of zero, is an unnecessary artificial construct.
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By implication, that would suggest space and time is an
unnecessary, artificial construct. While that may be, the
evidence for space and time are rather convincing as an
artificial construct. At the very least, space, time, photons,
electrons, etc., are very useful constructs.
But, you are ignoring two dimensions. The proper time to every
point satisfying the condition ds^2 = 0 is the same distance away,
yet the light ray connecting two points does not connect all of
those points. It only connects two points. If you consider three
points, such that the proper time between A and B is zero and
the proper time between A and C is zero, then the interval between
B and C is spacelike if the time coordinate for B and C is > A,
unless B and C are the same point. |
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ajiko
science forum beginner
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:16 am Post subject:
Re: Tau of the photon leads to...
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"Bilge" <dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net> wrote in message
news:slrndc9pvs.5f.dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net...
| Quote: | ajiko:
It seems very possible that the photon, a particle with no mass and a
half-life of zero, is an unnecessary artificial construct.
By implication, that would suggest space and time is an
unnecessary, artificial construct. While that may be, the
evidence for space and time are rather convincing as an
artificial construct. At the very least, space, time, photons,
electrons, etc., are very useful constructs.
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I think that the photon is a special case. A massless particle is the only
kind that doesn't allow its own frame of reference as a view of the
universe. Space, time and electrons are core to the theme of the post. The
post is explicitly considering electron interactions in the context of the
basic spacetime metric.
| Quote: |
But, you are ignoring two dimensions. The proper time to every
point satisfying the condition ds^2 = 0 is the same distance away,
yet the light ray connecting two points does not connect all of
those points. It only connects two points
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Well, actually, the concept is that, if there are particles at those other
points, the light rays do connect. There is actually no new idea in the
interactability between particles. It is only an ontological idea. The
suggestion is that, whereever a virtual photon exists for a possible
interaction, imagine instead a physical contact. ds^2 is always described
as the invariant distance. If that is zero, then, what I am suggesting is
to take that literally.
| Quote: | . If you consider three
points, such that the proper time between A and B is zero and
the proper time between A and C is zero, then the interval between
B and C is spacelike if the time coordinate for B and C is > A,
unless B and C are the same point.
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Yes. However, the interval is still zero through the interaction path. A
might interacts with both B and C.
Again, the idea is ontological. There remains a problem with quantum
theories. Although the math works very well, it remains a probability
result with no description of actions that should produce statistics. This
is an attempt to conceive of such actions.
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Bilge
science forum Guru
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 2816
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:40 am Post subject:
Re: Tau of the photon leads to...
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ajiko:
| Quote: |
"Bilge" <dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net> wrote in message
news:slrndc9pvs.5f.dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net...
ajiko:
It seems very possible that the photon, a particle with no mass and a
half-life of zero, is an unnecessary artificial construct.
By implication, that would suggest space and time is an
unnecessary, artificial construct. While that may be, the
evidence for space and time are rather convincing as an
artificial construct. At the very least, space, time, photons,
electrons, etc., are very useful constructs.
I think that the photon is a special case. A massless particle is the only
kind that doesn't allow its own frame of reference as a view of the
universe. Space, time and electrons are core to the theme of the post. The
post is explicitly considering electron interactions in the context of the
basic spacetime metric.
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The photon is not really a special case. First of all, the velocity
is not a quantum mechanical observable. Consider the electron described
by the dirac equation. The dirac equation gives only two velocities
for eigenvalues: +/- c.
To discuss photons you have to discuss them in the context of
a photon. By that, I mean you can't treat them as light rays and
then call them photons because you want to treat particles as light
rays. The proper quantities to use are the observables. Rather than
masses, you should refer to longitudinal polarizations. For example,
free photons have only transverse polarizations. Electrons, on the
other hand have a longitudinal component. One obtains the classical
definition of the velocity from the zitterbewegung.
| Quote: | But, you are ignoring two dimensions. The proper time to every
point satisfying the condition ds^2 = 0 is the same distance away,
yet the light ray connecting two points does not connect all of
those points. It only connects two points
Well, actually, the concept is that, if there are particles at those other
points, the light rays do connect.
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No, they do not. Just examine the light cone:
t
B | C ds^2 = 0 for interval AB. ds^2 = 0 for the interval AC.
\ | /
\ | / ds^2 is spacelike for the interval BC. It's not zero
\|/ and the scalar product of the four-momenta of those
----+--------- two rays is not zero.
A z
| Quote: | There is actually no new idea in the interactability between particles.
It is only an ontological idea. The suggestion is that, whereever a
virtual photon exists for a possible interaction, imagine instead a
physical contact. ds^2 is always described as the invariant distance.
If that is zero, then, what I am suggesting is to take that literally.
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I _am_ taking it ``literally.'' Thats my point. What you want to
do is ok as far as it goes. It just doesn't go far enough to include
what you need to include. Search google for the terms:
poincare instant front point hamiltonian
You'll notice that the coordinates one normally uses, (t, x, y ,z) are
the coordinates for the instant form. Look at the front form. The
coordinates are x^- = t - z, x^1 = x, x^2 = y, x^+ = t + z. That is quite
similar to what you appear to be saying. It's completely equivalent to the
instant form. It's a different _representation_ of the same theories.
Not a different theory.
[...]
| Quote: | Again, the idea is ontological. There remains a problem with quantum
theories. Although the math works very well, it remains a probability
result with no description of actions that should produce statistics. This
is an attempt to conceive of such actions.
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Have you considered the possibility that a theory which is probabilistic
at the most fundamental level is a feature rather than a detriment? I would
say that trying to find those ``actions'' to which you refer is basically
misguided. |
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