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Dirk Bruere at Neopax
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 249
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 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject:
Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
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Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the smell
disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The colour
changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper is getting
complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
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Thermide
science forum beginner
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:41 am Post subject:
Re: Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
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Depending on the concentrations of the respective reagents you probably
have complexed the cupric ion to cupric tetrammine + Counter-ion. Not
sure on the counter-ion in this case. This is typically observed by a
"deep blue" solution.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
| Quote: | Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the smell
disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The colour
changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper is getting
complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
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hanson
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:03 am Post subject:
Re: Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
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"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j60k4FohbkmU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the
smell disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The
colour changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper is
getting complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
Dirk
[hanson] |
ahahaha... no, not exactly. I assume that you refer to your last
post where I recommended to you to add AmCit. When the NH3
smell disappeared you probably had Mono/DiAmCit ~ pH .5.5-7.5.
Adding that to your CuSal/DMSO can create a host of many
different Cu complexes/chelates. Each component/ligand
in your solution: DMSO, NH3, CitricA, SalicylicA will compete
for the attachment to the Cu-ion. And they all form green to
deep blue chelates. But, I don't believe that you made any
CuAm4 complexes. Those are reeking of NH3 and IIRC they
have a pH of 10+. One test to check for CuAm4 complexes
would be to immerse some cotton into your brew. CuAm4 was
THE solvent for rayon manufacturing... (until the GT's came along)
Let us know how the stability and the effectiveness of your new
brew is.
Convey my condolences to the victims & families of the London
Blasts and you, good old friend, do take care.
hanson |
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Dirk Bruere at Neopax
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 249
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
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hanson wrote:
| Quote: | "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j60k4FohbkmU1@individual.net...
Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the
smell disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The
colour changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper is
getting complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
Dirk
[hanson]
ahahaha... no, not exactly. I assume that you refer to your last
post where I recommended to you to add AmCit. When the NH3
smell disappeared you probably had Mono/DiAmCit ~ pH .5.5-7.5.
Adding that to your CuSal/DMSO can create a host of many
different Cu complexes/chelates. Each component/ligand
in your solution: DMSO, NH3, CitricA, SalicylicA will compete
for the attachment to the Cu-ion. And they all form green to
deep blue chelates. But, I don't believe that you made any
CuAm4 complexes. Those are reeking of NH3 and IIRC they
have a pH of 10+. One test to check for CuAm4 complexes
would be to immerse some cotton into your brew. CuAm4 was
THE solvent for rayon manufacturing... (until the GT's came along)
Let us know how the stability and the effectiveness of your new
brew is.
Convey my condolences to the victims & families of the London
Blasts and you, good old friend, do take care.
hanson
|
What I have now is a white precipitate in clear soln with a very slight ammonia
smell. So, doesn't seem to have gone too well. I suspect the precipitate is
salicylic acid.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
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hanson
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
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"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j7thdForsakU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j60k4FohbkmU1@individual.net...
Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the
smell disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The
colour changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper
is
getting complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
Dirk
[hanson]
ahahaha... no, not exactly. I assume that you refer to your last
post where I recommended to you to add AmCit. When the NH3
smell disappeared you probably had Mono/DiAmCit ~ pH .5.5-7.5.
Adding that to your CuSal/DMSO can create a host of many
different Cu complexes/chelates. Each component/ligand
in your solution: DMSO, NH3, CitricA, SalicylicA will compete
for the attachment to the Cu-ion. And they all form green to
deep blue chelates. But, I don't believe that you made any
CuAm4 complexes. Those are reeking of NH3 and IIRC they
have a pH of 10+. One test to check for CuAm4 complexes
would be to immerse some cotton into your brew. CuAm4 was
THE solvent for rayon manufacturing... (until the GT's came along)
Let us know how the stability and the effectiveness of your new
brew is.
Convey my condolences to the victims & families of the London
Blasts and you, good old friend, do take care.
hanson
[Dirk]
What I have now is a white precipitate in clear soln with a very slight
ammonia smell. So, doesn't seem to have gone too well. I suspect the
precipitate is salicylic acid.
Dirk
[hanson] |
....... ahahaha..... Ahhhh... Alchemy. You just gotta love it.
Maybe you are right if your pH was too low. But since it still smells
of NH3 the AmSal should have stayed in solution.
See whether you can isolate/wash/dry some of the white stuff.
It may be that you have a redox situaion going on here. The blue
green Cu2+ thing may have precpaited out as a Cu1+ sediment
and oxydised some of your ligands, like DMSO into DMSO2.
First burn some of the white ppt on a wire and see whether it has
Cu in it: ---- Will not burn off and turns your flame green. -----
If you can bring this white stuff back into solution at a reasonable
pH (5- you may have found the product you were looking for.
Good luck
hanson |
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Dirk Bruere at Neopax
science forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 249
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
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hanson wrote:
| Quote: | "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j7thdForsakU1@individual.net...
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j60k4FohbkmU1@individual.net...
Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the
smell disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The
colour changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper
is
getting complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
Dirk
[hanson]
ahahaha... no, not exactly. I assume that you refer to your last
post where I recommended to you to add AmCit. When the NH3
smell disappeared you probably had Mono/DiAmCit ~ pH .5.5-7.5.
Adding that to your CuSal/DMSO can create a host of many
different Cu complexes/chelates. Each component/ligand
in your solution: DMSO, NH3, CitricA, SalicylicA will compete
for the attachment to the Cu-ion. And they all form green to
deep blue chelates. But, I don't believe that you made any
CuAm4 complexes. Those are reeking of NH3 and IIRC they
have a pH of 10+. One test to check for CuAm4 complexes
would be to immerse some cotton into your brew. CuAm4 was
THE solvent for rayon manufacturing... (until the GT's came along)
Let us know how the stability and the effectiveness of your new
brew is.
Convey my condolences to the victims & families of the London
Blasts and you, good old friend, do take care.
hanson
[Dirk]
What I have now is a white precipitate in clear soln with a very slight
ammonia smell. So, doesn't seem to have gone too well. I suspect the
precipitate is salicylic acid.
Dirk
[hanson]
...... ahahaha..... Ahhhh... Alchemy. You just gotta love it.
Maybe you are right if your pH was too low. But since it still smells
of NH3 the AmSal should have stayed in solution.
See whether you can isolate/wash/dry some of the white stuff.
It may be that you have a redox situaion going on here. The blue
green Cu2+ thing may have precpaited out as a Cu1+ sediment
and oxydised some of your ligands, like DMSO into DMSO2.
First burn some of the white ppt on a wire and see whether it has
Cu in it: ---- Will not burn off and turns your flame green. -----
If you can bring this white stuff back into solution at a reasonable
pH (5- you may have found the product you were looking for.
Good luck
hanson
|
Any suggestions for upping the pH?
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org |
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hanson
science forum Guru
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 793
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:19 am Post subject:
Re: Copper Salicylate and Ammonium Citrate
|
|
|
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:3j8fp7Foju5pU1@individual.net...
news:3j7thdForsakU1@individual.net...
news:3j60k4FohbkmU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Made up some AmCit by dissolving Citric acid in an ammonia soln until the
smell disappeared. Added some into a mix of CuSal in DMSO and water. The
colour changed from an emerald green to royal blue, so I assume some copper
is
getting complexed.
Any ideas as to what I've got?
Dirk
[hanson]
ahahaha... no, not exactly. I assume that you refer to your last
post where I recommended to you to add AmCit. When the NH3
smell disappeared you probably had Mono/DiAmCit ~ pH .5.5-7.5.
Adding that to your CuSal/DMSO can create a host of many
different Cu complexes/chelates. Each component/ligand
in your solution: DMSO, NH3, CitricA, SalicylicA will compete
for the attachment to the Cu-ion. And they all form green to
deep blue chelates. But, I don't believe that you made any
CuAm4 complexes. Those are reeking of NH3 and IIRC they
have a pH of 10+. One test to check for CuAm4 complexes
would be to immerse some cotton into your brew. CuAm4 was
THE solvent for rayon manufacturing... (until the GT's came along)
Let us know how the stability and the effectiveness of your new
brew is.
Convey my condolences to the victims & families of the London
Blasts and you, good old friend, do take care.
hanson
[Dirk]
What I have now is a white precipitate in clear soln with a very slight
ammonia smell. So, doesn't seem to have gone too well. I suspect the
precipitate is salicylic acid.
Dirk
[hanson]
...... ahahaha..... Ahhhh... Alchemy. You just gotta love it.
Maybe you are right if your pH was too low. But since it still smells
of NH3 the AmSal should have stayed in solution.
See whether you can isolate/wash/dry some of the white stuff.
It may be that you have a redox situaion going on here. The blue
green Cu2+ thing may have precpaited out as a Cu1+ sediment
and oxydised some of your ligands, like DMSO into DMSO2.
First burn some of the white ppt on a wire and see whether it has
Cu in it: ---- Will not burn off and turns your flame green. -----
If you can bring this white stuff back into solution at a reasonable
pH (5- you may have found the product you were looking for.
Good luck
hanson
[Dirk]
Any suggestions for upping the pH?
[hanson] |
More NH3.... or....
Go to the Healthfood store and see whether they will
get you some DMAE (NN Dimethylamino ethanol)
add and increase the pH with it.
If there was a Cu2(blue/sol)-->Cu1(white/insol) reduction
then a pH increase may not help once the reduction has
begun. You must add NH3 at the start of a new batch.
If that doesn't work then you may try to slow-down the ppt
by solgelling the solution with ST/GE/AV. Complicated.
take care
hanson |
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