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damo
science forum beginner

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 1

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Transformation Techniques

Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation?
William Elliot
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1906

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On Wed, 24 May 2006, damo wrote:

 Quote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation? What does that mean? Sentences have subjects and verbs. That is grammar.

Equations are math, they have no verbs nor subjects. Not unless you
immagine they do. What you want? To slove for n? No, that doesn't make
much sense for that identity. For all that matter, what's the "subject"
of the power log law as stated above?
Paul Sperry
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 371

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

In article <Pine.BSI.4.58.0605240356300.7233@vista.hevanet.com>,
William Elliot <marsh@hevanet.remove.com> wrote:

 Quote: On Wed, 24 May 2006, damo wrote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation? What does that mean? Sentences have subjects and verbs. That is grammar. Equations are math, they have no verbs nor subjects. Not unless you immagine they do.

I imagine "equals" is a verb form.

--
Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)
science forum beginner

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

damo wrote:
 Quote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation?

Not really, no. That's an identity; it's the same as saying 1 = a/a.
What it means is that if you have
log_a (m^n)
you can replace it with
n * log_a (m)
and vice-versa.

If you want to find n using this equation, you'd get something like
log_a (m^n) = n * log_a (m)
=> n * log_a (m) = n * log_a (m)
=> n = n
which is of no use to anyone.

--
Beware the spam trap -- fill in the gaps
Stan Brown
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 279

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

Wed, 24 May 2006 04:05:45 -0700 from William Elliot
<marsh@hevanet.remove.com>:
 Quote: On Wed, 24 May 2006, damo wrote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation?

I don't think it's much use to do that. First let's write in better
notation:
log_a(m^n) = n * log_a(m)

To solve for n, divide both sides by log_a(m):
n = log_a(m^n) / log_a(m)

But once you've got that, what good does it do? This is an identity,
not a conditional equation, so you can't use it to find a value for
n.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
Stan Brown
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 279

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

Wed, 24 May 2006 04:05:45 -0700 from William Elliot
<marsh@hevanet.remove.com>:
 Quote: On Wed, 24 May 2006, damo wrote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation? What does that mean? Sentences have subjects and verbs. That is grammar.

Oh for goodness' sake. "Make ___ the subject of the equation" is
standard eduspeak for "Solve for ___".

 Quote: Equations are math, they have no verbs nor subjects.

Don't lecture on grammar when you commit a comma splice.

Furthermore , you're wrong substantively. "A = b + c" is a sentence
grammatically. Its subject is "a", its verb is "equals", and its
complement is "b plus c".

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
William Elliot
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1906

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On Thu, 25 May 2006, Stan Brown wrote:
 Quote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com>: On Wed, 24 May 2006, damo wrote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation? What does that mean? Sentences have subjects and verbs. That is grammar. Oh for goodness' sake. "Make ___ the subject of the equation" is standard eduspeak for "Solve for ___". Oh sure, "Make you a subject of Savior King Bush" is neoedu-polsqueek for

 Quote: Equations are math, they have no verbs nor subjects. Don't lecture on grammar when you commit a comma splice. Neoedu-quicktype for ;

BTW, periods at end of sentence are inside quotes, not outside.

 Quote: Furthermore , you're wrong substantively. "A = b + c" is a sentence grammatically. Its subject is "a", its verb is "equals", and its complement is "b plus c". a /= A. a in A, A not in A.

i = sqr -1. I = sqr -1 ??
Stan Brown
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 279

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

Thu, 25 May 2006 04:39:15 -0700 from William Elliot
<marsh@hevanet.remove.com>:
 Quote: BTW, periods at end of sentence are inside quotes, not outside.

Read *any* grammar book, US or UK, and you'll find that your
categorical statement is at best incomplete and at worst plain wrong.

You seem to have some mathematical knowledge -- why not focus on
helping people with that instead of making annoying and wrong
pronouncements on grammar and punctuation?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
G.E. Ivey
science forum Guru

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 308

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

 Quote: On Wed, 24 May 2006, damo wrote: Can the power logarithm law: log(a) m^n = nlog(a) m, be transposed to make n the subject of the equation? What does that mean? Sentences have subjects and verbs. That is grammar. Equations are math, they have no verbs nor subjects. Not unless you immagine they do. What you want? To slove for n? No, that doesn't make much sense for that identity. For all that matter, what's the "subject" of the power log law as stated above?

"Make x the subject of the equation" is a Britishism for "solve for x", Bill. Let's not be provincial!
William Elliot
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1906

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On Thu, 25 May 2006, Stan Brown wrote:
 Quote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com>: BTW, periods at end of sentence are inside quotes, not outside. Read *any* grammar book, US or UK, and you'll find that your categorical statement is at best incomplete and at worst plain wrong. p1662 Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition

Sec. on Quotation Marks, paragraph 7a
The comma and the period are always enclosed within quotation marks.

 Quote: You seem to have some mathematical knowledge -- why not focus on helping people with that instead of making annoying and wrong pronouncements on grammar and punctuation? Too much neoedu-quicktype equationswithoutspaces and those who won't be

bothered to include context.

Riddle of the day. Does one capitalize "i" at the beginning of the
sentence
i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1.
or you use quotation marks
"j" is used by physicists for sqr -1
without capitalization?
Bob111
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:24:05 -0700, William Elliot
<marsh@hevanet.remove.com> wrote:

 Quote: On Thu, 25 May 2006, Stan Brown wrote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com>: BTW, periods at end of sentence are inside quotes, not outside. Read *any* grammar book, US or UK, and you'll find that your categorical statement is at best incomplete and at worst plain wrong. p1662 Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition Sec. on Quotation Marks, paragraph 7a The comma and the period are always enclosed within quotation marks.

Suggest you get a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage. It is a great
antidote whenever rigid rules of English are proposed, and it can be
good fun.

On this topic, he notes that both positionings are widely used, and
that the common preference of editors is what you said. He then pleads
that common sense will win out over such a silly rigid rule. {I have
simplified and paraphrased, but retain the gist of his point.)

 Quote: You seem to have some mathematical knowledge -- why not focus on helping people with that instead of making annoying and wrong pronouncements on grammar and punctuation? Too much neoedu-quicktype equationswithoutspaces and those who won't be bothered to include context.

dilute your important stuff with trivia.

 Quote: Riddle of the day. Does one capitalize "i" at the beginning of the sentence i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1. or you use quotation marks "j" is used by physicists for sqr -1 without capitalization?

I'd say it is an imaginary question, so I won't answer it.

bob
William Elliot
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1906

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On Thu, 25 May 2006, Bob wrote:
 Quote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com> wrote: On Thu, 25 May 2006, Stan Brown wrote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com>: BTW, periods at end of sentence are inside quotes, not outside. Read *any* grammar book, US or UK, and you'll find that your categorical statement is at best incomplete and at worst plain wrong. p1662 Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition Sec. on Quotation Marks, paragraph 7a The comma and the period are always enclosed within quotation marks. Suggest you get a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage. It is a great antidote whenever rigid rules of English are proposed, and it can be good fun. On this topic, he notes that both positionings are widely used, and that the common preference of editors is what you said. He then pleads that common sense will win out over such a silly rigid rule. {I have simplified and paraphrased, but retain the gist of his point.) I concur. Thus usage will vary as common sense.

 Quote: You seem to have some mathematical knowledge -- why not focus on helping people with that instead of making annoying and wrong pronouncements on grammar and punctuation? Too much neoedu-quicktype equationswithoutspaces and those who won't be bothered to include context. Many of your comments would indeed lead to clearer postings, but you dilute your important stuff with trivia. Trite in, trivia out.

 Quote: Riddle of the day. Does one capitalize "i" at the beginning of the sentence i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1. or you use quotation marks "j" is used by physicists for sqr -1 without capitalization? I'd say it is an imaginary question, so I won't answer it. Oh sure, and your was equally imaginary.

How much more imaginary is 2i than i?
Jasen Betts
science forum Guru Wannabe

Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 176

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On 2006-05-26, William Elliot <marsh@hevanet.remove.com> wrote:
 Quote: On Thu, 25 May 2006, Stan Brown wrote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com>: BTW, periods at end of sentence are inside quotes, not outside. Read *any* grammar book, US or UK, and you'll find that your categorical statement is at best incomplete and at worst plain wrong. p1662 Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition Sec. on Quotation Marks, paragraph 7a The comma and the period are always enclosed within quotation marks.

I must comment on this, I understand that style of punctuaton to be a US
conventio.

 Quote: Riddle of the day. Does one capitalize "i" at the beginning of the sentence i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1. or you use quotation marks "j" is used by physicists for sqr -1 without capitalization?

Correctly one does not put a lower case character at the start of a

The symbol i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1.

The letter "j" is used by physicists for sqr -1

That said personally I'd just start with i or "j" if it conveyed the meaning
best. <http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/writing-style.html>

--

Bye.
Jasen
William Elliot
science forum Guru

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1906

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

On Fri, 26 May 2006, Jasen Betts wrote:
 Quote: On 2006-05-26, William Elliot wrote: On Thu, 25 May 2006, Stan Brown wrote: marsh@hevanet.remove.com>: p1662 Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition Sec. on Quotation Marks, paragraph 7a The comma and the period are always enclosed within quotation marks. I must comment on this, I understand that style of punctuaton to be a US conventio. Worry you not, like English spelling and US foreign policy, US punctuation

is illogical. "conventio" is Italian ending? Can't quite place
"punctuaton". Greek ending?

 Quote: Riddle of the day. Does one capitalize "i" at the beginning of the sentence i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1. or you use quotation marks "j" is used by physicists for sqr -1 without capitalization? Correctly one does not put a lower case character at the start of a sentence, pad it. Good lesson to learn, padding. Next we apply the processing of padding to

profits and upon your first million dollar pad, you're eligible for a
lucrative political or corporate position, as if there be any distinction
any more. Congress is the US board of directors appointed and paid off by
corporate CEO's.

 Quote: The symbol i is used by mathematicians for sqr -1. The letter "j" is used by physicists for sqr -1 That said personally I'd just start with i or "j" if it conveyed the meaning

dBase software is over ten years old.
?

 Quote: best.

gamma as an English letter. Talk about over generalization, how is
capital Gamma ever an English letter? Anyway as I don't know how to
Fails a spelling test.
Frederick Williams

Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 97

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Transformation Techniques

"G.E. Ivey" wrote:

 Quote: "Make x the subject of the equation" is a Britishism for "solve for x", Bill. Let's not be provincial!

Better to say "Briticism" (or "Britticism") where English usage is
concerned. A Britishism is a characteristic of the people rather than
the language.

--
Remove "antispam" and ".invalid" for e-mail address.

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