FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Science and Technology » Engineering » Mechanics
(Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 4 of 4 [51 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
trader4@optonline.net
science forum beginner


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

Chris Lewis wrote:
Quote:
According to Gordon <gordo432xRemove@comcast.net>:
Having followed this thread so far, it strikes me that the approach should
be to get some experience actually using the generator before getting too
involved with holes for noise mitigation. I have a 6000W gasoline generator
that I use in my attached garage with the main door open. There are several
benefits to using a garage:

The approach works, and has a number of conveniences. However, you
do have to be VERY careful about CO production, even in an open garage
(check out/seal the penetrations between the garage and house, leave
as many doors open as possible).

During the great ice storm of 1998 up here there were a number of near
misses with CO poisoning even in open garages.



That's for sure. A 14 year old died here in NJ couple of weeks ago.
The electric company had shut off power to the home for non-payment.
They had a generator running in the basement, which is an obviously
stupid thing to do. The 14 yr old was sleeping in a bedroom, the
father was home sleeping in his bedroom with the AC on. Other family
members came home around noon and found the 14 year old dead. The
father apparently survived because the window AC unit pulled in enough
fresh air, though he wound up with other family members in the
hospital.

And in typical NJ fashion, the newspaper is full of editorials and
letters about how we need a better system to prevent this. Most are
suggesting that the electric company should be required to notify the
municipality before turning off anyone's power. Like just notifying
is all that's needed. Of course the real problem is if the
municipality is notifed then what? Should they have a team driving
around to the homes then to find out what's going on and who;s about to
do something stupid? And at what stage do you do this? Two weeks
before shutoff when the power company sends out the final bill? Or the
day they actually go there to either collect or turn it off? I'd bet
100 get notice, while only 1 actually get's shut off, because they pay
up at the last minute. Then the idiots here in NJ complain about high
taxes, but they want a new program to fix every act of stupidity where
someone dies or gets injured.

Plus, it wasn't even that hot here, so why did the father who can't pay
his electric bill need to have an AC running? Not to mention that it's
got to be pretty cost ineffective to run a generator, compared to just
paying up enough on your bill so they don't cut it off.

Back to the garage issue, it is easier than you think to get affected
by CO. I had the generator running on my boat one day, while
anchored. I was sitting on the open deck area for maybe an hour or so
and noticed I had a little headache and didn't feel well. Few minutes
later the CO detector in the cabin went off. When I got up, I also
noticed I was a little light headed. Apparently, while the generator
was exhausting properly at the rear of the boat, the wind was blowing
enough of it back and onto the boat. Finally enough got into the cabin
to set off the alarm.










Quote:
Secondly, using a suicide cord between a generator and dryer outlet
is a severe code no-no. While in certain emergencies (the power's
out, you have no time to buy sophisticated parts and wait for electricians,
and you only have limited options on installing a new genset)
it's the only way to go, but, it can be VERY dangerous on a number
of grounds. And highly unwise on a "planned installation" from
a legal perspective.

Here, you can get hit with a $6000 fine.

If you're planning out a "permanentish" installation, using a transfer
switch is the right way to go.

Short of that, extension cords to the equipment you need to power
is best.

Thirdly, security is important. People do strange things. Like
stealing generators from emergency services installations.
Chain it down!
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Back to top
no-email-address-today@--
science forum beginner


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

I think I am responding to a troll, but I also agree, putting it in a
pit is absolutely stupid. As for putting it in the hole, get 3 or 4
buddies, buy a case of beer and lower it in the hole using muscles.
200 lbs is nothing.... (do it BEFORE drinking the beer though).
Of course, the pit is still a stupid idea !!!!



On 6 Jul 2006 08:18:58 -0700, "dpb" <dpbozarth@swko.net> wrote:

Quote:

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.

A 10-ft span could easily be bridged w/ a 2x8 and safely hold 500 lbs
(w/ only something over 1/8" deflection if my mental gymnastics weren't
too far off). For something like that you certainly don't need a metal
beam unless you just want it for showin' off. In practice, for
something like this I would probably go with a double 2x6 rather than a
single 2x8 or 2x10 for a little more lateral rigidity, but certainly
don't need more for supporting the load safely.

I'm sorta' w/ J Meehan on the application, though...unless you're
building an enclosed weathertight basement-like structure w/ air supply
and exhaust provisions seems like the wrong place to put an emergency
generator...


There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Thanks in advance.
Back to top
no-email-address-today@--
science forum beginner


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

On 6 Jul 2006 17:51:24 -0700, jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Quote:

YouGoFirst wrote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.


Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
pit that you haven't explained.

I'm retired and most of my relatives have moved out of state or died
off. I do have 3 close- by, likely suspects that would help me.
However, one of them has a very bad back and is currently putting off
surgery. The other one has a bad back, but works as a roofer foreman
and ignores it so I could use him, but he travels out of town a lot on
his job. The other one is usually close by, but 200 pounds is a lot for
2 people to lift in and out of a hole and my back isn't all that great.
I don't want to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
way.

The hole requires a roof anyway. So, it didn't seem like that big of a
deal to add the hoist. Another nice thing about a hoist is that I can
experiment with depth vs sound attenuation quite easily. It's a
judgement call. Once you get sucked into trying to reduce the sound on
these very loud generators, you make a lot of judgement calls.


But I do agree with a previous poster, why would you put a generator into a
pit?

Noise reduction. The whole problem is noise reduction and holes are
relatively cheap compared to other options and I have a relatively
large yard, too large really. These things are unbelievably loud--I
would guess twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower.

Didcha ever hear of a thing called a muffler? You dont need to leave
that tiny stock muffler on it, get a decent one. Then build an
insulated shed. The insulation will muffle the sound too. The
exhaust still has to come out the shed, so you will need to pipe it
out of a shed, or the ground. Leaving the exhaust pour inside a shed
or a pit might kill someone, and will surely kill the engine since it
needs oxygen to run. Not to be cruel, but your whole idea is
rediculous. Build a small shed for it, pipe the exhaust outdoors and
get a good muffler. I personally know a guy that welded a regular car
muffler to some pipe and hooked it to his camping generator because
people complained when he was camping. Now, it's so quiet you dont
even know it's there. A little welding will solve the noise and
probably cost much less. For a shed, a few 2x4's and some barn siding
(steel) is all you need.

You will also need to supply fresh air into the shed for the intake
air. Either vent the whole shed, or pipe air into the air cleaner
compartment.
Back to top
bill allemann
science forum beginner


Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

so at that price, it is a gasoline powered generator.
You do not want to put it in a hole.

Bill
<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
dpb wrote:
jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.

A 10-ft span could easily be bridged w/ a 2x8 and safely hold 500 lbs
(w/ only something over 1/8" deflection if my mental gymnastics weren't
too far off). For something like that you certainly don't need a metal
beam unless you just want it for showin' off. In practice, for
something like this I would probably go with a double 2x6 rather than a
single 2x8 or 2x10 for a little more lateral rigidity, but certainly
don't need more for supporting the load safely.

I'm sorta' w/ J Meehan on the application, though...unless you're
building an enclosed weathertight basement-like structure w/ air supply
and exhaust provisions seems like the wrong place to put an emergency
generator...


There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Thanks in advance.

This stand-by generator thing really presents a lot options, all with
related problems. If you enjoy solving problems, it's very interesting.
If you don't, it'll drive you nuts. With me the whole thing started off
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
fastening some sort of plate (1/2" thick max) on the bottom of them to
accommodate the trolley wheels. Given that a small, used I-Beam, only
costs about $25-$50 at a salvage yard, the steel solution seemed most
practical.
Back to top
bill allemann
science forum beginner


Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

you are way overthinking the job there. 200 pounds?
Put a piece of 2 X 10 down into the hole as a ramp, and just slide the thing
down.
I've taken items twice that heavy off the back of my truck by myself with
old 2X10 ramps.

Bill

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.

There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Thanks in advance.

Back to top
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
science forum beginner


Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help Reply with quote

I wonder what it would cost to get a precast concrete vault or even a
pipe section delivered to your property. That would be dense enough to
deaden most of the sound radiated from the engine block.

The exhaust could be muffled by running it into a bucket of water (might
need a vacuum break to prevent it from sucking water if you crank it
backwards).

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
On a clear desk, you can sleep forever.
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 4 of 4 [51 Posts] Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:18 pm | All times are GMT
Forum index » Science and Technology » Engineering » Mechanics
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts Question about Life. socratus Probability 0 Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:01 pm
No new posts Probability Question dumont Probability 0 Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:38 pm
No new posts Question about exponention WingDragon@gmail.com Math 2 Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:13 am
No new posts question on solartron 1260 carrie_yao@hotmail.com Electrochem 0 Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:11 am
No new posts load flow calculation BVU Control 0 Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:05 am

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Electronics forum |  Medicine forum |  Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums  |  send newsletters
 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.2007s ][ Queries: 16 (0.1440s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]