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How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances?
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guskz@hotmail.com
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Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

How do they know the binding force between quarks is weaker at shorter
distances?

Even though quarks must reside at a specific distance from each other,
so do electrons in atomic shells and it doesn't mean if the electron is
closer to the nucleus (then it's required shell distance) that the
force between the electron and the nucleus will be *weaker*??


-----------------------------

As well they compared the pion exchange between nucleons to the
electron exchange between atoms (a molecule) and these atoms are
regulated to a specific distance from each other...(they cannot be too
close or too far) but it doesn't mean if the atoms were closer then
normal that the force between them is weaker (or does it)??
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PD
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
How do they know the binding force between quarks is weaker at shorter
distances?

Short answer is that high-energy hadron-hadron scattering experiments
(where quarks bang on quarks) show that this is the case.

Quote:

Even though quarks must reside at a specific distance from each other,
so do electrons in atomic shells and it doesn't mean if the electron is
closer to the nucleus (then it's required shell distance) that the
force between the electron and the nucleus will be *weaker*??

Indeed, the fact that both protons are bound states of quarks and atoms
are bound states of electrons and nuclei doesn't tell you that on its
own. But there are a lot more data indicating the *differences* between
how QED and QCD behaves.

PD
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

PD wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
How do they know the binding force between quarks is weaker at shorter
distances?

Short answer is that high-energy hadron-hadron scattering experiments

It seems the scattering experiment would describe the "concentration"
location of their quarks?

If so, then likewise electron's are also "concentrated" to locations
known as atomic shells....BUT THAT DOESN"T mean the force is
****WEAKER****between the electron's and the nucleus if they are closer
then their 1st quantum shell location??

Quote:
(where quarks bang on quarks) show that this is the case.


Even though quarks must reside at a specific distance from each other,
so do electrons in atomic shells and it doesn't mean if the electron is
closer to the nucleus (then it's required shell distance) that the
force between the electron and the nucleus will be *weaker*??

Indeed, the fact that both protons are bound states of quarks and atoms
are bound states of electrons and nuclei doesn't tell you that on its
own. But there are a lot more data indicating the *differences* between
how QED and QCD behaves.

PD
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Phineas T Puddleduck
science forum Guru


Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 759

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

In article <1152868269.452108.164390@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<"guskz@hotmail.com"> wrote:

Quote:
It seems the scattering experiment would describe the "concentration"
location of their quarks?

If so, then likewise electron's are also "concentrated" to locations
known as atomic shells....BUT THAT DOESN"T mean the force is
****WEAKER****between the electron's and the nucleus if they are closer
then their 1st quantum shell location??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_freedom

"Discovery

The fact that asymptotic freedom is a feature of quantum chromodynamics
(QCD), the quantum field theory of the interactions of quarks and
gluons, was discovered by David Gross, Frank Wilczek, and David
Politzer in 1973. For their discovery, Gross, Wilczek and Politzer were
awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2004.

Asymptotic freedom implies that in high-energy scattering the quarks
move within nucleons, such as the neutron and proton, essentially as
free, non-interacting particles, and it allows physicists to calculate
the cross sections of various events in particle physics reliably using
parton techniques.

The discovery also helped rehabilitate the reputation of quantum field
theory (QFT) as a coherent description of particle interactions. Prior
to 1973, many theorists suspected that QFT was rendered fundamentally
incoherent by the short-distance Landau pole that arose in quantum
electrodynamics and some other field theories. Asymptotically free
theories, however, lack this Landau pole. The discovery of asymptotic
freedom was therefore a key development toward the emergence of a
Standard Model of particle physics based on quantum field theory.

(While the Standard Model is not itself entirely asymptotically free,
the phenomenon raises the possibility that it could be an effective
field theory approximation to an asymptotically free grand unified
theory; and since its strong interactions are asymptotically free, any
Landau poles in it are banished anyway to a realm far beneath the
Planck length.)"

--
Relf's Law? -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
Corollary -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
³It approaches the asymptote faster, the more Œpseduos¹ you throw in
your formulas.²
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
³Gravity is one of the four fundamental interactions. The classical
theory of gravity - Einstein's general relativity - is the subject
of this book.² : Hartle/ Gravity pg 1
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orange jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson
why parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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PD
science forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
How do they know the binding force between quarks is weaker at shorter
distances?

Short answer is that high-energy hadron-hadron scattering experiments

It seems the scattering experiment would describe the "concentration"
location of their quarks?

If so, then likewise electron's are also "concentrated" to locations
known as atomic shells....BUT THAT DOESN"T mean the force is
****WEAKER****between the electron's and the nucleus if they are closer
then their 1st quantum shell location??

There is more information available from scattering experiments than
where the quarks are. Bjorken and Feynman did a lot of tremendous work
in the 1960's describing the *momentum* behavior of those quarks
(so-called "Bjorken scaling") and this, combined with the theoretical
work of Gross and Politzer on QCD asymptotic freedom, and imaginative
experiments, all nicely dovetail.

Quote:

(where quarks bang on quarks) show that this is the case.


Even though quarks must reside at a specific distance from each other,
so do electrons in atomic shells and it doesn't mean if the electron is
closer to the nucleus (then it's required shell distance) that the
force between the electron and the nucleus will be *weaker*??

Indeed, the fact that both protons are bound states of quarks and atoms
are bound states of electrons and nuclei doesn't tell you that on its
own. But there are a lot more data indicating the *differences* between
how QED and QCD behaves.

PD
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

Phineas T Puddleduck wrote:
Quote:
In article <1152868269.452108.164390@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"guskz@hotmail.com"> wrote:

It seems the scattering experiment would describe the "concentration"
location of their quarks?

If so, then likewise electron's are also "concentrated" to locations
known as atomic shells....BUT THAT DOESN"T mean the force is
****WEAKER****between the electron's and the nucleus if they are closer
then their 1st quantum shell location??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_freedom

"Discovery

The fact that asymptotic freedom is a feature of quantum chromodynamics
(QCD), the quantum field theory of the interactions of quarks and
gluons, was discovered by David Gross, Frank Wilczek, and David
Politzer in 1973. For their discovery, Gross, Wilczek and Politzer were
awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2004.

Asymptotic freedom implies that in high-energy scattering the quarks
move within nucleons, such as the neutron and proton, essentially as
free, non-interacting particles,

I wonder how FREE they can be if the quarks are FORCED to closer
distances then normal?

Quote:
and it allows physicists to calculate
the cross sections of various events in particle physics reliably using
parton techniques.

The discovery also helped rehabilitate the reputation of quantum field
theory (QFT) as a coherent description of particle interactions. Prior
to 1973, many theorists suspected that QFT was rendered fundamentally
incoherent by the short-distance Landau pole that arose in quantum
electrodynamics and some other field theories. Asymptotically free
theories, however, lack this Landau pole. The discovery of asymptotic
freedom was therefore a key development toward the emergence of a
Standard Model of particle physics based on quantum field theory.

(While the Standard Model is not itself entirely asymptotically free,
the phenomenon raises the possibility that it could be an effective
field theory approximation to an asymptotically free grand unified
theory; and since its strong interactions are asymptotically free, any
Landau poles in it are banished anyway to a realm far beneath the
Planck length.)"

--
Relf's Law? -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Bullshit repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."
Corollary -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
³It approaches the asymptote faster, the more Œpseduos¹ you throw in
your formulas.²
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
³Gravity is one of the four fundamental interactions. The classical
theory of gravity - Einstein's general relativity - is the subject
of this book.² : Hartle/ Gravity pg 1
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orange jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson
why parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Back to top
guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: How do they know the quark's binding force is weaker at shorter distances? Reply with quote

PD wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
How do they know the binding force between quarks is weaker at shorter
distances?

Short answer is that high-energy hadron-hadron scattering experiments

It seems the scattering experiment would describe the "concentration"
location of their quarks?

If so, then likewise electron's are also "concentrated" to locations
known as atomic shells....BUT THAT DOESN"T mean the force is
****WEAKER****between the electron's and the nucleus if they are closer
then their 1st quantum shell location??

There is more information available from scattering experiments than
where the quarks are. Bjorken and Feynman did a lot of tremendous work
in the 1960's describing the *momentum* behavior of those quarks
(so-called "Bjorken scaling") and this, combined with the theoretical
work of Gross and Politzer on QCD asymptotic freedom, and imaginative
experiments, all nicely dovetail.


Ok, but to scatter them don't the qarks have to be bombarded....if so
after the scattering did the quarks return to farther distance (same as
electron returning to it's electron shell after being scattered...even
if it was closer to the nucleus or protons prior) ....


....or simply as Puddleduck just said: that the quarks stopped
interacting with each other inside the nucleon (move freely within the
nucleon = asymptotic freedom)?



Quote:

(where quarks bang on quarks) show that this is the case.


Even though quarks must reside at a specific distance from each other,
so do electrons in atomic shells and it doesn't mean if the electron is
closer to the nucleus (then it's required shell distance) that the
force between the electron and the nucleus will be *weaker*??

Indeed, the fact that both protons are bound states of quarks and atoms
are bound states of electrons and nuclei doesn't tell you that on its
own. But there are a lot more data indicating the *differences* between
how QED and QCD behaves.

PD
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