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Is there Pions in the nucleus??
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??
Back to top
Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.
We've already discussed that. But there certainly is a whole lot more
to the picture that can occur at various energies within the nucleus.
And that's one of the reasons that doing calculations in QCD has always
been so precarious -- they've always needed to take into account all
the particle combinations that could arise in the binding of individual
quarks together at all the different energies.
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

Igor wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?

Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Quote:
We've already discussed that. But there certainly is a whole lot more
to the picture that can occur at various energies within the nucleus.
And that's one of the reasons that doing calculations in QCD has always
been so precarious -- they've always needed to take into account all
the particle combinations that could arise in the binding of individual
quarks together at all the different energies.
Back to top
Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Quote:
Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.
Back to top
guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

Igor wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.

Ok but the STRONG FORCE is the GLUONS not the quarks or the
nucleons,corrects


And logically and *wording* wise:

So the RESIDUAL STRONG FORCE according to the words should mean a
residual of ....the strong force (gluons)?

Both pions and quarks are a particle and not a force therefore pions
produce a force in the same way quarks produce a force (but they are
not a force nor a residual strong force???)
Back to top
guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.


Ok, I got a better picture. I read the pion exchange between nucleons
(nucleus) geing compared to an electron between atoms (hence a
molecule).

The electron transfer is not only a particle transfer but also related
to the charge force of the electron, likewise it would seem the pion
exchange is not only due to the pion but the residual force should be
also related to gluons?

Quote:
Ok but the STRONG FORCE is the GLUONS not the quarks or the
nucleons,corrects


And logically and *wording* wise:

So the RESIDUAL STRONG FORCE according to the words should mean a
residual of ....the strong force (gluons)?

Both pions and quarks are a particle and not a force therefore pions
produce a force in the same way quarks produce a force (but they are
not a force nor a residual strong force???)
Back to top
Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.

Ok but the STRONG FORCE is the GLUONS not the quarks or the
nucleons,corrects


And logically and *wording* wise:

So the RESIDUAL STRONG FORCE according to the words should mean a
residual of ....the strong force (gluons)?

Both pions and quarks are a particle and not a force therefore pions
produce a force in the same way quarks produce a force (but they are
not a force nor a residual strong force???)

Get with the game. There seems to be a duality between matter
(particles) and forces (gauge particles). This is the basis for
supersymmetry. Technically, any boson could probably mediate
interactions between any two fermions, and hence be a gauge particle.
Originally, when the pion was proposed, it was thought to be strictly
the mediator of the strong force, but now we know that it is just
another meson.
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Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.


Ok, I got a better picture. I read the pion exchange between nucleons
(nucleus) geing compared to an electron between atoms (hence a
molecule).

Actually, instead of electrons, it would be virtual photons, which
mediate the EM forces. Electrons are fermions and thus could not be
gauge particles.

Quote:
The electron transfer is not only a particle transfer but also related
to the charge force of the electron, likewise it would seem the pion
exchange is not only due to the pion but the residual force should be
also related to gluons?


Again, not electrons, but virtual photons. And as said before, the
pion exchange is the force that binds nucleons together, at least to
first order.
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

Igor wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.


Ok, I got a better picture. I read the pion exchange between nucleons
(nucleus) geing compared to an electron between atoms (hence a
molecule).

Actually, instead of electrons, it would be virtual photons, which
mediate the EM forces. Electrons are fermions and thus could not be
gauge particles.

The electron transfer is not only a particle transfer but also related
to the charge force of the electron, likewise it would seem the pion
exchange is not only due to the pion but the residual force should be
also related to gluons?


Again, not electrons, but virtual photons. And as said before, the
pion exchange is the force that binds nucleons together, at least to
first order.

makes very good sense with the exception that photons don't generate a
force where as pions and electrons due.
(As well its "other links" (not me) who used the electrons as
comparison with pions)
Back to top
Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.


Ok, I got a better picture. I read the pion exchange between nucleons
(nucleus) geing compared to an electron between atoms (hence a
molecule).

Actually, instead of electrons, it would be virtual photons, which
mediate the EM forces. Electrons are fermions and thus could not be
gauge particles.

The electron transfer is not only a particle transfer but also related
to the charge force of the electron, likewise it would seem the pion
exchange is not only due to the pion but the residual force should be
also related to gluons?


Again, not electrons, but virtual photons. And as said before, the
pion exchange is the force that binds nucleons together, at least to
first order.

makes very good sense with the exception that photons don't generate a
force where as pions and electrons due.
(As well its "other links" (not me) who used the electrons as
comparison with pions)

But electrons are fermions and can't act as gauge particles. Pions are
bosons and can be gauge particles. It sounds to me like you're
confused about particles having forces acting upon them and the gauge
particles that are essentially equivalent to the forces themselves.
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guskz@hotmail.com
science forum Guru


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

Igor wrote:
Quote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.


Ok, I got a better picture. I read the pion exchange between nucleons
(nucleus) geing compared to an electron between atoms (hence a
molecule).

Actually, instead of electrons, it would be virtual photons, which
mediate the EM forces. Electrons are fermions and thus could not be
gauge particles.

The electron transfer is not only a particle transfer but also related
to the charge force of the electron, likewise it would seem the pion
exchange is not only due to the pion but the residual force should be
also related to gluons?


Again, not electrons, but virtual photons. And as said before, the
pion exchange is the force that binds nucleons together, at least to
first order.

makes very good sense with the exception that photons don't generate a
force where as pions and electrons due.
(As well its "other links" (not me) who used the electrons as
comparison with pions)

But electrons are fermions and can't act as gauge particles. Pions are
bosons and can be gauge particles. It sounds to me like you're
confused about particles having forces acting upon them and the gauge
particles that are essentially equivalent to the forces themselves.

yes, i am not familiar with "gauge" particles.

"...having forces acting upon them".. : Electron's do have forces
acting on them but as well electrons produce a force and it's called a
negative charge?

--------------------------------------------

How can they tell between forces and particles with forces....same as
is electron a particle or a wave....a wave can be a force, as well the
momentum of a particle(or wave since an electron is boht) is also a
force (as it is expelled from an atom or a nucleon)?
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Igor
science forum Guru


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there Pions in the nucleus?? Reply with quote

guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
Igor wrote:
guskz@hotmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find the specific interaction of Pions in a nucleus (only
that they represent the strong nuclear binding force).


I believe I read that Pions have a very short lifespan of fractions of
a second and are made of quarks?

If so, the Pions in a nucleus decay into what after their lifespan is
over?

Does that mean that quarks are not only in nucleons but float around
the nucleons (quarks soup) as well and intermittently form into Pions?

-------------------------------------------

I thought the residual force between nucleons was a residual force of
gluons and not Pions, therefore are Pions which are made of quarks
simply lie in between nucleons, therefore the residual force goes from
one nucleon to a short-life Pion and then back to another nucleon
(causing two nucleons to bind threw the intermediary of a Pion)??


Well, one of the original strong force models involved the exchange of
pions, which were essentially unknown at the time, between nuclei. The
theory required a gauge particle of a particular mass to mediate the
short-range force. Hence the pion was predicted and later observed in
the lab. We now know that this is only part of the overall picture.

Remember that as quarks get closer together, they are less bound to
each other. This is a condition called asymptotic freedom. And the
reverse is also true. As they get farther apart, there is more
potential energy between them, which is contrary to what happens with
electrostatic or gravitational fields. Because of this, at various
energies, there are a whole variety of particles that could be
generated inside the nucleus at any given time. There's even a
hypothetical particle called the glueball, which is simply two gluons
bound together.

While the gluons themselves are the gauge particles that mediate the
strong interaction between individual quarks, it is indeed the residual
effects of these interactions that literally hold the nucleus together.

Ok but since as you said: "the gluons mediate the strong interaction",
should the residual of this also be gluons?


No, it's an interaction or force.


Since pions are quarks also, since it not the quarks themselves that
mediate the strong interaction, therefore likewise there must be
something else that interacts between the nucleons and pions?

Pions are mesons and as such are made of a quark and an antiquark. And
why must there be something to mediate between pions and nucleons?
Pions are already first order gauge particles for the strong force.
But it's more complicated than just pions.


Ok, I got a better picture. I read the pion exchange between nucleons
(nucleus) geing compared to an electron between atoms (hence a
molecule).

Actually, instead of electrons, it would be virtual photons, which
mediate the EM forces. Electrons are fermions and thus could not be
gauge particles.

The electron transfer is not only a particle transfer but also related
to the charge force of the electron, likewise it would seem the pion
exchange is not only due to the pion but the residual force should be
also related to gluons?


Again, not electrons, but virtual photons. And as said before, the
pion exchange is the force that binds nucleons together, at least to
first order.

makes very good sense with the exception that photons don't generate a
force where as pions and electrons due.
(As well its "other links" (not me) who used the electrons as
comparison with pions)

But electrons are fermions and can't act as gauge particles. Pions are
bosons and can be gauge particles. It sounds to me like you're
confused about particles having forces acting upon them and the gauge
particles that are essentially equivalent to the forces themselves.

yes, i am not familiar with "gauge" particles.

"...having forces acting upon them".. : Electron's do have forces
acting on them but as well electrons produce a force and it's called a
negative charge?

--------------------------------------------

How can they tell between forces and particles with forces....same as
is electron a particle or a wave....a wave can be a force, as well the
momentum of a particle(or wave since an electron is boht) is also a
force (as it is expelled from an atom or a nucleon)?

Forces are the result of fields. The field is a actually a
mathematical concept, but it has been applied to physics quite
successfully. The gauge concept is really very simple. The fields
themselves can be thought of as resulting from exchanges of things
called virtual gauge particles of various energies from zero to
infinity. This is quantum field theory. All forces have their
corresponding gauge bosons. With EM, it's the photon, and the strong
has the gluon, both of which are supposedly massless. The weak
interaction has three massive gauge particles: W+, W-, and Z0. The
first two are charged and the last one is neutral.
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