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kenseto
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2151

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Relative motion from individual motion

"Mike" <eleatis@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
news:1153483155.217223.312370@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
 Quote: kenseto wrote: "AllYou!" wrote in message news:3KmdnWECJ-r56CLZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:IVHvg.39460\$u11.31679@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... "AllYou!" wrote in message news:QtidnTE745TsGSPZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:ontvg.30190\$vl5.20181@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... "AllYou!" wrote in message news:w5WdnZu_FuPdrCPZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:ssJug.45264\$Eh1.45256@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... 1.Observer A measures the following: B is moving wrt to him at Vab C is moving wrt him at Vac D is moving wrt him at Vad 2.Observer A accelerated for a brief period and becomes inertial again. 3. Observer A now measures that the relative velocities of B, C and D have been changed. 4. It is clear that these changes are due to a change in the individual motion of A by acceleration. 5. Therefore relative motion between any two objects must be derived from the individual motions of the two objects as follows: Nope. The relative *speed* between any two objects must be derived from the change in distance between them per unit time. So how do you achieve a change in distance without individual motion? If by motion, you mean a change in position, how do you achieve a change in position without a reference? Sigh....you achieve a change of position by individual motion as follows: The relative motion between two objects A and B is the vector difference of the vector component of A's individual motion and the vector component of B's individual motion along the line joining A and B. No individual motion by A or B .....no relative moiton and no change of position. You reply is unresponsive, and I'll show you exactly how: You begin by claiming that you're going to be responsive when you say "you achieve a change of position by individual motion as follows:", but then you immediately proceed to discuss relative motion and how it's achieved (i.e., quantified) through the comparison of individual motions (i.e., vector difference between two individual motions). Do you see it now? You've based your claim about relative motion on individual motion, and so now I'm asking you how you achieve (i.e., quantify) individual motion (i.e., change in position) without a reference.
kenseto
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2151

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Relative motion from individual motion

"Mike" <eleatis@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
news:1153483155.217223.312370@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
 Quote: kenseto wrote: "AllYou!" wrote in message news:3KmdnWECJ-r56CLZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:IVHvg.39460\$u11.31679@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... "AllYou!" wrote in message news:QtidnTE745TsGSPZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@conversent.net... You reply is unresponsive, and I'll show you exactly how: You begin by claiming that you're going to be responsive when you say "you achieve a change of position by individual motion as follows:", but then you immediately proceed to discuss relative motion and how it's achieved (i.e., quantified) through the comparison of individual motions (i.e., vector difference between two individual motions). Do you see it now? You've based your claim about relative motion on individual motion, and so now I'm asking you how you achieve (i.e., quantify) individual motion (i.e., change in position) without a reference.

So are you saying that acceleration is not moving? Why do I need other body
to experience acceleration?
 Quote: Relative motion is born between you and I. Clearky this means that I changed my state of absolute motion without using you as a reference and clearly relative motion between you and I is born after I changed my state of absolute motion. Then, tell us you absolute position right now, your absolute velocity, etc. Can you?

Since I am in a state of absolute motion there is no such thing as absolute
position for me. The absolute velocity wrt local light rays can be
determined by doing the experiments in the following link:
http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2005Experiment.pdf

Ken Seto
 Quote: BTW denying this arguement is much like denying your mother is not your mother.....unless... Fallacies on top of fallacies hardly make a sound argument. Again, if you know of a physics where absolute motion exists, go ahead and give us the absolute coordinates of Earth. The absolute - relational spacetime/motion debate is well known and understood these days. The relationalists have the advantage that spatiotemporal quantities are well-defined. their metaphysical problem is how spacetime is structured. Absolutists have no well-definedspatiotemporal quantities and when they must solve a problem always use relational ones. Their position is metaphysical from start. Your claims are totally unfounded. Mike Ken Seto
AllYou!
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1088

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Relative motion from individual motion

"kenseto" <kenseto@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:nD2wg.55845\$Eh1.23716@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
 Quote: "AllYou!" wrote in message news:3KmdnWECJ-r56CLZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:IVHvg.39460\$u11.31679@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... "AllYou!" wrote in message news:QtidnTE745TsGSPZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:ontvg.30190\$vl5.20181@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... "AllYou!" wrote in message news:w5WdnZu_FuPdrCPZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@conversent.net... "kenseto" wrote in message news:ssJug.45264\$Eh1.45256@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... 1.Observer A measures the following: B is moving wrt to him at Vab C is moving wrt him at Vac D is moving wrt him at Vad 2.Observer A accelerated for a brief period and becomes inertial again. 3. Observer A now measures that the relative velocities of B, C and D have been changed. 4. It is clear that these changes are due to a change in the individual motion of A by acceleration. 5. Therefore relative motion between any two objects must be derived from the individual motions of the two objects as follows: Nope. The relative *speed* between any two objects must be derived from the change in distance between them per unit time. So how do you achieve a change in distance without individual motion? If by motion, you mean a change in position, how do you achieve a change in position without a reference? Sigh....you achieve a change of position by individual motion as follows: The relative motion between two objects A and B is the vector difference of the vector component of A's individual motion and the vector component of B's individual motion along the line joining A and B. No individual motion by A or B .....no relative moiton and no change of position. You reply is unresponsive, and I'll show you exactly how: You begin by claiming that you're going to be responsive when you say "you achieve a change of position by individual motion as follows:", but then you immediately proceed to discuss relative motion and how it's achieved (i.e., quantified) through the comparison of individual motions (i.e., vector difference between two individual motions). Do you see it now? You've based your claim about relative motion on individual motion, and so now I'm asking you how you achieve (i.e., quantify) individual motion (i.e., change in position) without a reference.

That's the proposition under debate, and so it serves no purpose to
repeat it.

 Quote: You can change your state of absolute motion by acceleration. You and I are standing side by side so we are in the same state of absolute motion and we don't have relative motion wrt each other. I accelerated....this means that I changed my state of absolute motion.

That's the proposition under debate, and so it serves no purpose to
repeat it.

 Quote: Relative motion is born between you and I. Clearky this means that I changed my state of absolute motion without using you as a reference and clearly relative motion between you and I is born after I changed my state of absolute motion.

That's the proposition under debate, and so it serves no purpose to
repeat it.

But now answer the question. How do you achieve (i.e., quantify)
individual motion (i.e., change in position) without a reference? In
fact, how do you even determine whether or not individual motion is
occurring without a reference?

You see, the argument presented above is circular. You're using the
proposition that you're advocating as the basis for the support of
your argument. You can see how silly that is, right? If you had a
valid argument for "individual motion", you wouldn't have to keep
making that argument in terms of relative motion. IOW, you wouldn't
have to keep using hypothetical which involve two or more objects
(e.g., you and me).

Can you make your argument without doing either of these (i.e., using
two objects, or using the proposition under debate as the basis for
your argument)?
AllYou!
science forum Guru

Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1088

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Relative motion from individual motion

"kenseto" <kenseto@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:du4wg.55849\$Eh1.4457@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
 Quote: "Mike" wrote in message news:1153483155.217223.312370@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... Hardly. You cannot prove that in any way possible. If I insist that without the other body presence you would be unable to move you cannot deny my claim since you cannot prove that you can move in the absence of other bodies around you. So are you saying that acceleration is not moving? Why do I need other body to experience acceleration?

Are you saying that you can only determine individual motion in the
case of acceleration?
PD
science forum Guru

Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 4363

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Relative motion from individual motion

kenseto wrote:
 Quote: So are you saying that acceleration is not moving? Why do I need other body to experience acceleration?

Acceleration is a *change* in motion.
If you toss a ball in the air, on the way up it accelerates at 9.8
m/s^2 downward. On the way down it accelerates at 9.8 m/s^2 downward.
At the moment at the very top where the motion of the ball relative to
the earth is *zero*, the acceleration is *still* 9.8 m/s^2 downward.
Notice in the last case, there is plainly acceleration when there is no
motion.

PD
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